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Re: Cancel out abilities

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  • herzogaldilkassach
    In this particular case, that would work. However, there are situations where multiple class abilities on the same level can be traded out/substituted. I don t
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 3, 2009
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      In this particular case, that would work.
      However, there are situations where multiple class abilities on the same level can be traded out/substituted. I don't want to make a seperate substitutionclass for every possible combination.

      most direct example: Ranger with alternate class features from both Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II:
      -get bonus feat at lvl 4+, replaces spellcasting
      -get Distracting Strike, replaces Animal Companion

      both at lvl 4...

      true, I'm not yet sure how to do the spellcasting thing, but I would like to be able to use the animal companion replacement either with or without the spellcasting replacement. Which would lead to three combination substitution levels/classes, and then I'm not even mentioning the Ranger without spellcasting from the Complete Warrior.

      In short, I'd like to do it the hard way :)

      Which leads me back to my original question: what's wrong with the addition of the prerequisite after the fact?
      Am I making a syntax error there? or is this not possible at all?

      --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > Might I interest you in a much easier method?
      >
      > Make a Substitution class of the class you wish to change. It removes
      > all abilities of the affected level.
      >
      > CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
      > SUBSTITUTIONCLASS:Barbarian Cool Guy
      > SUBSTITUTIONLEVEL:1 <> Whatever I want to go here.
      >
      > Beyond that, there are other methods... but I'd go with the easier
      > method myself.
      >
      > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      > Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
      > Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
      > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      >
      >
      >
      > herzogaldilkassach wrote:
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > I'm trying to find a way to implement Alternate Class Features.
      > >
      > > Since the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn't implemented yet, and wouldn't apply to AUTOMATIC abilities anyway, I tried the following (using barbarian fast movement as an example)
      > >
      > > I created an ability called:
      > > Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement
      > >
      > > I then modified the barbarian Fast Movement ability to have a preability:
      > >
      > > CATEGORY:Special Ability|Barbarian Fast Movement.MOD<TAB>PREABILITY:0,CATEGORY=Special Ability,[Barbarian ACF Fast Movement]
      > >
      > > Then, when adding an alternate class feature as an ability, I add in the cancel fast movement ability:
      > >
      > > Spiritual Totem<TAB>CATEGORY:Special Ability<TAB>TYPE:ClassFeature<TAB>COST:0<TAB>VISIBLE:YES<TAB>PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Barbarian Fast Movement,[Spiritual Totem],[Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement]<TAB>BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Spirit Totems|1<TAB>ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement
      > >
      > >
      > > I would expect this to effectively remove the ability, but it doesn't seem to work.
      > >
      > > Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Tir Gwaith
      REMOVE:ABILITY removes an object at character run, from the character that already had that ability from user choice or LST calls. You are trying to modify
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 3, 2009
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        REMOVE:ABILITY removes an object at character run, from the character
        that already had that ability from user choice or LST calls. You are
        trying to modify modify setup of options before character load, so
        .MOD and .CLEAR, etc. are what you want.


        I have a better idea. Esp. since I just did a bunch of stuff for UA
        in my 5.6.1 update and testing. :p (Someone might want to record
        this, because I think I'm basically writing something that could
        easily be incorporated into a LST Class for the Docs.

        Remove the ability with .CLEAR, and add whatever you want later with
        whatever PREreqs, or even Ability Pools.

        For example:
        UA has 2 variants for Barbarian Rage / Indomitable Will, so there are
        now 3 options I want to choose from.
        - Standard like SRD
        - "Whirling Frenzy"
        - "Hunter" (replace Rage and Indomitable Will with Favored Enemy and
        Archery Combat Style stuff)

        In my coding below, I'm putting one tag per class level line. I
        didn't do it in my files, but it makes it easier to clarify that there
        is tabs between tags... Consider a tab between level line and the tag
        listed.

        First thing I did, is remove all the old references and give myself a
        clean slate:
        CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
        1 BONUS:VAR|BarbRageTimesLVL,BarbRagePowerLVL|-CL
        1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|.CLEAR.Barbarian Rage|.CLEAR.Rage
        14 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|.CLEAR.Indomitable Will

        With just that above, Loading Barbarian removes all of his Rage /
        Indomitable Will stuff, completely. The BONUS:VAR negation is for a
        corner case: what if at a future date a character used "Hunter"
        version, but had "Rage" from a racial ability (like 1/day or
        something).

        Next, I need to set up an Ability Pool for my choices. I can then
        test that they are working, and after that, I can add the various bits
        to that framework.

        Ability Category file (called with ABILITYCATEGORY tag in PCC), all on
        one line separated by tabs:
        ABILITYCATEGORY:Barbarian Rage Variant
        VISIBLE:QUALIFY
        EDITABLE:NO
        EDITPOOL:YES
        FRACTIONALPOOL:NO
        CATEGORY:Special Ability
        TYPE:RageChoice
        PLURAL:Barbarian Rage Variants
        DISPLAYLOCATION:Class Abilities

        Big parts to notice are CATEGORY, TYPE (have to put those in my choice
        objects for the ability category to find them), DISPLAYLOCATION (I've
        put it with the rest of the RSRD Class ability choices, so the GUI
        remains clean), VISIBLE:QUALIFY (I want only Barbarians to see the
        Pool display on the right had side of Class Abilities, again for nice
        GUI display).

        Ok, so now that I have an ABILITYCATEGORY, I need to set up some
        objects to test.
        Ability File:
        Barbarian Hunter
        CATEGORY:Special Ability
        TYPE:Internal.RageChoice
        VISIBLE:DISPLAY
        All those on one line again, with Tabs, and:
        Barbarian Whirling Frenzy
        CATEGORY:Special Ability
        TYPE:Internal.RageChoice
        VISIBLE:DISPLAY

        So now I have 2 choices, matching CATEGORY and TYPE as the
        ABILITYCATEGORY, VISIBLE:DISPLAY, so it shows up on the GUI, but not
        the character sheet (The "Real" abilities will do that for me).

        After getting that to work, I went about making the Barbarian Hunter
        completely functional. The RSRD relevant parts for that from the
        Ranger Class are:
        1 BONUS:VAR|RangerFavoredEnemyLVL|CL
        1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Basic Favored Enemy|Ranger Favored Enemy
        ###Block: Combat Trees
        1 BONUS:VAR|RangerCombatTreeLVL|CL
        1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Ranger Combat Tree

        So, I need in my Barbarian CLASS (under the .MOD)
        1 BONUS:VAR|RangerFavoredEnemyLVL|CL|PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special
        Ability,Barbarian Hunter
        Notice the PREABILITY, so the VARS aren't calculated unless the
        character has the choice "Barbarian Hunter"

        In my Ability file, I need to add the following to Barbarian Hunter
        ability (I could do it in the class line, but that would require
        another PRExxx, and I find this cleaner - personal preference, since
        either will work)
        ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Basic Favored Enemy|Ranger Favored Enemy
        (That's implements the Favored Enemy stuff, no real modifications)
        and then:
        ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Archery Combat Style
        This one is different from the Ranger, in that I'm calling the Archery
        Combat Style object directly, since that is what the UA variant
        mentions... I'm not going to need to choose between Combat styles, so
        I just add the Archery and be done. :)

        To make it the Style kick off the actual abilties of the style, I need
        to increment the VAR RangerCombatTreeLVL, so back in CLASS.lst, where
        I had the other bits:
        1 BONUS:VAR|RangerCombatTreeLVL|CL|PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special
        Ability,Barbarian Hunter
        Gotta put the PRE there. I could have done it a few other ways, but
        that makes it clean for me. :)

        That takes care of the Barbarian Hunter (and I can test it...) Only
        have to modify Barbarian Rage, and implement Whirling Frenzy....

        I hope that explained some steps in how to do this sort of thing. I
        suppose I could go into EVERYTHING to implement those, but I'll save
        that for a LST Class if need be. (aka I'm getting tired of typing
        this morning)

        Tir Gwaith
        PCGen LST Chimp
      • Barak
        ... They don t work that way.... you wither take the one or the other... it s not mix & match (per standard rules anyway). ... I see one issue... ... That 0 is
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 3, 2009
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > most direct example: Ranger with alternate class features from both
          > Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II:
          > -get bonus feat at lvl 4+, replaces spellcasting
          > -get Distracting Strike, replaces Animal Companion
          >
          > both at lvl 4...
          >
          > true, I'm not yet sure how to do the spellcasting thing, but I would
          > like to be able to use the animal companion replacement either with or
          > without the spellcasting replacement. Which would lead to three
          > combination substitution levels/classes, and then I'm not even
          > mentioning the Ranger without spellcasting from the Complete Warrior.

          They don't work that way.... you wither take the one or the other... it's
          not mix & match (per standard rules anyway).

          > Which leads me back to my original question: what's wrong with the
          > addition of the prerequisite after the fact?
          > Am I making a syntax error there? or is this not possible at all?

          I see one issue...


          > PREABILITY:0,CATEGORY=Special Ability...

          That 0 is probably messing you up.

          I'd try !PREABILITY:1,

          Barak
        • herzogaldilkassach
          Hi! Nice LST class! I m actually alread doing part of what you explain here, except for one part: I want to keep the original, default ability intact UNLESS
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 4, 2009
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            Hi!

            Nice LST class!

            I'm actually alread doing part of what you explain here, except for one part:

            I want to keep the original, default ability intact UNLESS someone wants an alternate class feature.
            That's why I tried to modify the existing ability that's being replaced and add in a 'cancellation' ability.
            (it is my understanding and experience the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn't implemented yet)

            In short, yes, I understand REMOVE:ABILITY would remove an already assigned ability, and that's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

            You did, however, point me towards my second mistake (the first one was using CATEGORY:Special Ability instead of CATEGORY=Special Ability):

            I tried modifying the ability, while I should have been modifying the class.

            I now have:
            CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
            1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|.CLEAR.Barbarian Fast Movement
            1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Barbarian Fast Movement|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement

            My Alternate class feature adds the ability 'barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movent' in addition to it's own bonusses, and the barbarian fast movement disappears....

            Done! Thanks for helping!
          • herzogaldilkassach
            ... I m not sure I want to get into a rules argument here, but to clarify: I don t see any reason why you couldn t combine either the normal spellcaster with a
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 5, 2009
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              --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@...> wrote:
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > most direct example: Ranger with alternate class features from both
              > > Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II:
              > > -get bonus feat at lvl 4+, replaces spellcasting
              > > -get Distracting Strike, replaces Animal Companion
              > >
              > > both at lvl 4...
              > >
              > > true, I'm not yet sure how to do the spellcasting thing, but I would
              > > like to be able to use the animal companion replacement either with or
              > > without the spellcasting replacement. Which would lead to three
              > > combination substitution levels/classes, and then I'm not even
              > > mentioning the Ranger without spellcasting from the Complete Warrior.
              >
              > They don't work that way.... you wither take the one or the other... it's
              > not mix & match (per standard rules anyway).
              >
              ---snip---
              > Barak
              >

              I'm not sure I want to get into a rules argument here, but to clarify:
              I don't see any reason why you couldn't combine either the normal spellcaster with a substitution that replaces the animal companion or the Complete Warrior Ranger with a substitution that replaces the animal companion.
              Or a ranger with both the substitution from PHII that replaces the animal companion and the substitution from Complete Champion that replaces spellcasting.

              Of course, you couldn't add a substitution that replaces spellcasting to the complete warrior ranger that has no spellcasting.
              Nor could you take two substitution features that replace the same ability....
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