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Cancel out abilities

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  • herzogaldilkassach
    Hi, I m trying to find a way to implement Alternate Class Features. Since the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn t implemented yet, and wouldn t apply to AUTOMATIC
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 2, 2009
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      Hi,

      I'm trying to find a way to implement Alternate Class Features.

      Since the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn't implemented yet, and wouldn't apply to AUTOMATIC abilities anyway, I tried the following (using barbarian fast movement as an example)

      I created an ability called:
      Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement

      I then modified the barbarian Fast Movement ability to have a preability:

      CATEGORY:Special Ability|Barbarian Fast Movement.MOD<TAB>PREABILITY:0,CATEGORY=Special Ability,[Barbarian ACF Fast Movement]

      Then, when adding an alternate class feature as an ability, I add in the cancel fast movement ability:

      Spiritual Totem<TAB>CATEGORY:Special Ability<TAB>TYPE:ClassFeature<TAB>COST:0<TAB>VISIBLE:YES<TAB>PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Barbarian Fast Movement,[Spiritual Totem],[Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement]<TAB>BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Spirit Totems|1<TAB>ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement


      I would expect this to effectively remove the ability, but it doesn't seem to work.

      Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
    • Andrew Maitland
      Hi, Might I interest you in a much easier method? Make a Substitution class of the class you wish to change. It removes all abilities of the affected level.
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 2, 2009
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        Hi,

        Might I interest you in a much easier method?

        Make a Substitution class of the class you wish to change. It removes
        all abilities of the affected level.

        CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
        SUBSTITUTIONCLASS:Barbarian Cool Guy
        SUBSTITUTIONLEVEL:1 <> Whatever I want to go here.

        Beyond that, there are other methods... but I'd go with the easier
        method myself.

        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
        Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



        herzogaldilkassach wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > I'm trying to find a way to implement Alternate Class Features.
        >
        > Since the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn't implemented yet, and wouldn't apply to AUTOMATIC abilities anyway, I tried the following (using barbarian fast movement as an example)
        >
        > I created an ability called:
        > Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement
        >
        > I then modified the barbarian Fast Movement ability to have a preability:
        >
        > CATEGORY:Special Ability|Barbarian Fast Movement.MOD<TAB>PREABILITY:0,CATEGORY=Special Ability,[Barbarian ACF Fast Movement]
        >
        > Then, when adding an alternate class feature as an ability, I add in the cancel fast movement ability:
        >
        > Spiritual Totem<TAB>CATEGORY:Special Ability<TAB>TYPE:ClassFeature<TAB>COST:0<TAB>VISIBLE:YES<TAB>PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Barbarian Fast Movement,[Spiritual Totem],[Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement]<TAB>BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Spirit Totems|1<TAB>ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement
        >
        >
        > I would expect this to effectively remove the ability, but it doesn't seem to work.
        >
        > Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • herzogaldilkassach
        In this particular case, that would work. However, there are situations where multiple class abilities on the same level can be traded out/substituted. I don t
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 3, 2009
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          In this particular case, that would work.
          However, there are situations where multiple class abilities on the same level can be traded out/substituted. I don't want to make a seperate substitutionclass for every possible combination.

          most direct example: Ranger with alternate class features from both Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II:
          -get bonus feat at lvl 4+, replaces spellcasting
          -get Distracting Strike, replaces Animal Companion

          both at lvl 4...

          true, I'm not yet sure how to do the spellcasting thing, but I would like to be able to use the animal companion replacement either with or without the spellcasting replacement. Which would lead to three combination substitution levels/classes, and then I'm not even mentioning the Ranger without spellcasting from the Complete Warrior.

          In short, I'd like to do it the hard way :)

          Which leads me back to my original question: what's wrong with the addition of the prerequisite after the fact?
          Am I making a syntax error there? or is this not possible at all?

          --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > Might I interest you in a much easier method?
          >
          > Make a Substitution class of the class you wish to change. It removes
          > all abilities of the affected level.
          >
          > CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
          > SUBSTITUTIONCLASS:Barbarian Cool Guy
          > SUBSTITUTIONLEVEL:1 <> Whatever I want to go here.
          >
          > Beyond that, there are other methods... but I'd go with the easier
          > method myself.
          >
          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
          > Data Chimp, Docs Tamarin
          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          >
          >
          >
          > herzogaldilkassach wrote:
          > > Hi,
          > >
          > > I'm trying to find a way to implement Alternate Class Features.
          > >
          > > Since the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn't implemented yet, and wouldn't apply to AUTOMATIC abilities anyway, I tried the following (using barbarian fast movement as an example)
          > >
          > > I created an ability called:
          > > Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement
          > >
          > > I then modified the barbarian Fast Movement ability to have a preability:
          > >
          > > CATEGORY:Special Ability|Barbarian Fast Movement.MOD<TAB>PREABILITY:0,CATEGORY=Special Ability,[Barbarian ACF Fast Movement]
          > >
          > > Then, when adding an alternate class feature as an ability, I add in the cancel fast movement ability:
          > >
          > > Spiritual Totem<TAB>CATEGORY:Special Ability<TAB>TYPE:ClassFeature<TAB>COST:0<TAB>VISIBLE:YES<TAB>PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Barbarian Fast Movement,[Spiritual Totem],[Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement]<TAB>BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Spirit Totems|1<TAB>ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement
          > >
          > >
          > > I would expect this to effectively remove the ability, but it doesn't seem to work.
          > >
          > > Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Tir Gwaith
          REMOVE:ABILITY removes an object at character run, from the character that already had that ability from user choice or LST calls. You are trying to modify
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 3, 2009
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            REMOVE:ABILITY removes an object at character run, from the character
            that already had that ability from user choice or LST calls. You are
            trying to modify modify setup of options before character load, so
            .MOD and .CLEAR, etc. are what you want.


            I have a better idea. Esp. since I just did a bunch of stuff for UA
            in my 5.6.1 update and testing. :p (Someone might want to record
            this, because I think I'm basically writing something that could
            easily be incorporated into a LST Class for the Docs.

            Remove the ability with .CLEAR, and add whatever you want later with
            whatever PREreqs, or even Ability Pools.

            For example:
            UA has 2 variants for Barbarian Rage / Indomitable Will, so there are
            now 3 options I want to choose from.
            - Standard like SRD
            - "Whirling Frenzy"
            - "Hunter" (replace Rage and Indomitable Will with Favored Enemy and
            Archery Combat Style stuff)

            In my coding below, I'm putting one tag per class level line. I
            didn't do it in my files, but it makes it easier to clarify that there
            is tabs between tags... Consider a tab between level line and the tag
            listed.

            First thing I did, is remove all the old references and give myself a
            clean slate:
            CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
            1 BONUS:VAR|BarbRageTimesLVL,BarbRagePowerLVL|-CL
            1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|.CLEAR.Barbarian Rage|.CLEAR.Rage
            14 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|.CLEAR.Indomitable Will

            With just that above, Loading Barbarian removes all of his Rage /
            Indomitable Will stuff, completely. The BONUS:VAR negation is for a
            corner case: what if at a future date a character used "Hunter"
            version, but had "Rage" from a racial ability (like 1/day or
            something).

            Next, I need to set up an Ability Pool for my choices. I can then
            test that they are working, and after that, I can add the various bits
            to that framework.

            Ability Category file (called with ABILITYCATEGORY tag in PCC), all on
            one line separated by tabs:
            ABILITYCATEGORY:Barbarian Rage Variant
            VISIBLE:QUALIFY
            EDITABLE:NO
            EDITPOOL:YES
            FRACTIONALPOOL:NO
            CATEGORY:Special Ability
            TYPE:RageChoice
            PLURAL:Barbarian Rage Variants
            DISPLAYLOCATION:Class Abilities

            Big parts to notice are CATEGORY, TYPE (have to put those in my choice
            objects for the ability category to find them), DISPLAYLOCATION (I've
            put it with the rest of the RSRD Class ability choices, so the GUI
            remains clean), VISIBLE:QUALIFY (I want only Barbarians to see the
            Pool display on the right had side of Class Abilities, again for nice
            GUI display).

            Ok, so now that I have an ABILITYCATEGORY, I need to set up some
            objects to test.
            Ability File:
            Barbarian Hunter
            CATEGORY:Special Ability
            TYPE:Internal.RageChoice
            VISIBLE:DISPLAY
            All those on one line again, with Tabs, and:
            Barbarian Whirling Frenzy
            CATEGORY:Special Ability
            TYPE:Internal.RageChoice
            VISIBLE:DISPLAY

            So now I have 2 choices, matching CATEGORY and TYPE as the
            ABILITYCATEGORY, VISIBLE:DISPLAY, so it shows up on the GUI, but not
            the character sheet (The "Real" abilities will do that for me).

            After getting that to work, I went about making the Barbarian Hunter
            completely functional. The RSRD relevant parts for that from the
            Ranger Class are:
            1 BONUS:VAR|RangerFavoredEnemyLVL|CL
            1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Basic Favored Enemy|Ranger Favored Enemy
            ###Block: Combat Trees
            1 BONUS:VAR|RangerCombatTreeLVL|CL
            1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Ranger Combat Tree

            So, I need in my Barbarian CLASS (under the .MOD)
            1 BONUS:VAR|RangerFavoredEnemyLVL|CL|PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special
            Ability,Barbarian Hunter
            Notice the PREABILITY, so the VARS aren't calculated unless the
            character has the choice "Barbarian Hunter"

            In my Ability file, I need to add the following to Barbarian Hunter
            ability (I could do it in the class line, but that would require
            another PRExxx, and I find this cleaner - personal preference, since
            either will work)
            ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Basic Favored Enemy|Ranger Favored Enemy
            (That's implements the Favored Enemy stuff, no real modifications)
            and then:
            ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Archery Combat Style
            This one is different from the Ranger, in that I'm calling the Archery
            Combat Style object directly, since that is what the UA variant
            mentions... I'm not going to need to choose between Combat styles, so
            I just add the Archery and be done. :)

            To make it the Style kick off the actual abilties of the style, I need
            to increment the VAR RangerCombatTreeLVL, so back in CLASS.lst, where
            I had the other bits:
            1 BONUS:VAR|RangerCombatTreeLVL|CL|PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special
            Ability,Barbarian Hunter
            Gotta put the PRE there. I could have done it a few other ways, but
            that makes it clean for me. :)

            That takes care of the Barbarian Hunter (and I can test it...) Only
            have to modify Barbarian Rage, and implement Whirling Frenzy....

            I hope that explained some steps in how to do this sort of thing. I
            suppose I could go into EVERYTHING to implement those, but I'll save
            that for a LST Class if need be. (aka I'm getting tired of typing
            this morning)

            Tir Gwaith
            PCGen LST Chimp
          • Barak
            ... They don t work that way.... you wither take the one or the other... it s not mix & match (per standard rules anyway). ... I see one issue... ... That 0 is
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 3, 2009
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > most direct example: Ranger with alternate class features from both
              > Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II:
              > -get bonus feat at lvl 4+, replaces spellcasting
              > -get Distracting Strike, replaces Animal Companion
              >
              > both at lvl 4...
              >
              > true, I'm not yet sure how to do the spellcasting thing, but I would
              > like to be able to use the animal companion replacement either with or
              > without the spellcasting replacement. Which would lead to three
              > combination substitution levels/classes, and then I'm not even
              > mentioning the Ranger without spellcasting from the Complete Warrior.

              They don't work that way.... you wither take the one or the other... it's
              not mix & match (per standard rules anyway).

              > Which leads me back to my original question: what's wrong with the
              > addition of the prerequisite after the fact?
              > Am I making a syntax error there? or is this not possible at all?

              I see one issue...


              > PREABILITY:0,CATEGORY=Special Ability...

              That 0 is probably messing you up.

              I'd try !PREABILITY:1,

              Barak
            • herzogaldilkassach
              Hi! Nice LST class! I m actually alread doing part of what you explain here, except for one part: I want to keep the original, default ability intact UNLESS
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 4, 2009
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                Hi!

                Nice LST class!

                I'm actually alread doing part of what you explain here, except for one part:

                I want to keep the original, default ability intact UNLESS someone wants an alternate class feature.
                That's why I tried to modify the existing ability that's being replaced and add in a 'cancellation' ability.
                (it is my understanding and experience the REMOVE:ABILITY tag isn't implemented yet)

                In short, yes, I understand REMOVE:ABILITY would remove an already assigned ability, and that's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

                You did, however, point me towards my second mistake (the first one was using CATEGORY:Special Ability instead of CATEGORY=Special Ability):

                I tried modifying the ability, while I should have been modifying the class.

                I now have:
                CLASS:Barbarian.MOD
                1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|.CLEAR.Barbarian Fast Movement
                1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Barbarian Fast Movement|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movement

                My Alternate class feature adds the ability 'barbarian ACF Cancel Fast Movent' in addition to it's own bonusses, and the barbarian fast movement disappears....

                Done! Thanks for helping!
              • herzogaldilkassach
                ... I m not sure I want to get into a rules argument here, but to clarify: I don t see any reason why you couldn t combine either the normal spellcaster with a
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 5, 2009
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                  --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > most direct example: Ranger with alternate class features from both
                  > > Complete Champion and Player's Handbook II:
                  > > -get bonus feat at lvl 4+, replaces spellcasting
                  > > -get Distracting Strike, replaces Animal Companion
                  > >
                  > > both at lvl 4...
                  > >
                  > > true, I'm not yet sure how to do the spellcasting thing, but I would
                  > > like to be able to use the animal companion replacement either with or
                  > > without the spellcasting replacement. Which would lead to three
                  > > combination substitution levels/classes, and then I'm not even
                  > > mentioning the Ranger without spellcasting from the Complete Warrior.
                  >
                  > They don't work that way.... you wither take the one or the other... it's
                  > not mix & match (per standard rules anyway).
                  >
                  ---snip---
                  > Barak
                  >

                  I'm not sure I want to get into a rules argument here, but to clarify:
                  I don't see any reason why you couldn't combine either the normal spellcaster with a substitution that replaces the animal companion or the Complete Warrior Ranger with a substitution that replaces the animal companion.
                  Or a ranger with both the substitution from PHII that replaces the animal companion and the substitution from Complete Champion that replaces spellcasting.

                  Of course, you couldn't add a substitution that replaces spellcasting to the complete warrior ranger that has no spellcasting.
                  Nor could you take two substitution features that replace the same ability....
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