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CMP vs. PCGEN Datasets

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  • Brandon Morrison
    Hello: I m kind of wondering something and it s not a right wrong, but I m more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I ve looked at) combine all
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
      Hello:
      I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but I'm
      more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
      at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
      into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
      dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.

      I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that reason
      might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters and
      want to know what the best approach might be.

      Thanks in advance
    • Andrew Maitland
      Hi Brandon, Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or doesn t do something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting him. In most
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
        Hi Brandon,

        Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or doesn't do
        something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting him. In
        most cases you'll get the wrong answer.

        Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or what the
        logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one monkey
        here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
        answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
        monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.

        Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes, well
        I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
        could answer that.

        What I do is look at how it interacts.
        The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class. It's
        got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a dragon.
        For us I think it's more flexible.

        Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they did. I'm
        sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.

        ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
        ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
        "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



        Brandon Morrison wrote:
        > Hello:
        > I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but I'm
        > more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
        > at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
        > into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
        > dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
        >
        > I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that reason
        > might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters and
        > want to know what the best approach might be.
        >
        > Thanks in advance
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Brandon Morrison
        I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was just kind of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know having been on the CMP
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
          <chuckle> I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was just kind
          of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know having
          been on the CMP boards that there are differences between the way CMP
          and non-CMP monkeys handle things. I was just looking to see if there
          was a particular reason that anyone happened to know about.

          Thanks for the answer and I appreciate it.

          Brandon

          --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Brandon,
          >
          > Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or doesn't
          do
          > something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting him. In
          > most cases you'll get the wrong answer.
          >
          > Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or what the
          > logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one
          monkey
          > here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
          > answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
          > monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.
          >
          > Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes,
          well
          > I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
          > could answer that.
          >
          > What I do is look at how it interacts.
          > The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class.
          It's
          > got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a
          dragon.
          > For us I think it's more flexible.
          >
          > Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they did.
          I'm
          > sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.
          >
          > ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
          > ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
          > "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          >
          >
          >
          > Brandon Morrison wrote:
          > > Hello:
          > > I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but
          I'm
          > > more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
          > > at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
          > > into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
          > > dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
          > >
          > > I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that reason
          > > might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters
          and
          > > want to know what the best approach might be.
          > >
          > > Thanks in advance
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Andrew Maitland
          Unfortunately, some of the differences were based upon being different. But I m glad you liked the quick and dirty explanation. I ll have to look at the CMP
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
            Unfortunately, some of the differences were based upon being different.
            But I'm glad you liked the quick and dirty explanation. I'll have to
            look at the CMP stuff and see how Barak/CMP set it up. Like most things,
            there aren't "right" and "wrong" ways, just different ways to achieve
            the same results.

            ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
            ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
            "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



            Brandon Morrison wrote:
            > <chuckle> I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was just kind
            > of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know having
            > been on the CMP boards that there are differences between the way CMP
            > and non-CMP monkeys handle things. I was just looking to see if there
            > was a particular reason that anyone happened to know about.
            >
            > Thanks for the answer and I appreciate it.
            >
            > Brandon
            >
            > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            >> Hi Brandon,
            >>
            >> Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or doesn't
            >>
            > do
            >
            >> something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting him. In
            >> most cases you'll get the wrong answer.
            >>
            >> Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or what the
            >> logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one
            >>
            > monkey
            >
            >> here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
            >> answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
            >> monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.
            >>
            >> Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes,
            >>
            > well
            >
            >> I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
            >> could answer that.
            >>
            >> What I do is look at how it interacts.
            >> The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class.
            >>
            > It's
            >
            >> got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a
            >>
            > dragon.
            >
            >> For us I think it's more flexible.
            >>
            >> Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they did.
            >>
            > I'm
            >
            >> sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.
            >>
            >> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            >> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
            >> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
            >> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Brandon Morrison wrote:
            >>
            >>> Hello:
            >>> I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but
            >>>
            > I'm
            >
            >>> more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
            >>> at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
            >>> into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
            >>> dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
            >>>
            >>> I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that reason
            >>> might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters
            >>>
            > and
            >
            >>> want to know what the best approach might be.
            >>>
            >>> Thanks in advance
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> ------------------------------------
            >>>
            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brandon Morrison
            And for the record, I m not bashing Barak or anything like that. He s been great at answering my questions over there. Must be busy or something right now,
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
              And for the record, I'm not bashing Barak or anything like that. He's
              been great at answering my questions over there. Must be busy or
              something right now, so I figured I would ask over here.

              --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
              <drew0500@...> wrote:
              >
              > Unfortunately, some of the differences were based upon being different.
              > But I'm glad you liked the quick and dirty explanation. I'll have to
              > look at the CMP stuff and see how Barak/CMP set it up. Like most
              things,
              > there aren't "right" and "wrong" ways, just different ways to achieve
              > the same results.
              >
              > ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              > ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
              > ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
              > "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              >
              >
              >
              > Brandon Morrison wrote:
              > > <chuckle> I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was
              just kind
              > > of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know having
              > > been on the CMP boards that there are differences between the way CMP
              > > and non-CMP monkeys handle things. I was just looking to see if there
              > > was a particular reason that anyone happened to know about.
              > >
              > > Thanks for the answer and I appreciate it.
              > >
              > > Brandon
              > >
              > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > >> Hi Brandon,
              > >>
              > >> Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or doesn't
              > >>
              > > do
              > >
              > >> something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting him. In
              > >> most cases you'll get the wrong answer.
              > >>
              > >> Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or
              what the
              > >> logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one
              > >>
              > > monkey
              > >
              > >> here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
              > >> answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
              > >> monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.
              > >>
              > >> Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes,
              > >>
              > > well
              > >
              > >> I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
              > >> could answer that.
              > >>
              > >> What I do is look at how it interacts.
              > >> The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class.
              > >>
              > > It's
              > >
              > >> got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a
              > >>
              > > dragon.
              > >
              > >> For us I think it's more flexible.
              > >>
              > >> Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they did.
              > >>
              > > I'm
              > >
              > >> sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.
              > >>
              > >> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              > >> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
              > >> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
              > >> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Brandon Morrison wrote:
              > >>
              > >>> Hello:
              > >>> I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but
              > >>>
              > > I'm
              > >
              > >>> more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
              > >>> at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
              > >>> into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
              > >>> dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
              > >>>
              > >>> I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that reason
              > >>> might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters
              > >>>
              > > and
              > >
              > >>> want to know what the best approach might be.
              > >>>
              > >>> Thanks in advance
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> ------------------------------------
              > >>>
              > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Andrew Maitland
              I don t think Barak or anyone inferred anything derogatory in your comments. So no worries there. Yeah, unfortunately us simians are kept very busy. I guess
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                I don't think Barak or anyone inferred anything derogatory in your
                comments. So no worries there. Yeah, unfortunately us simians are kept
                very busy.

                I guess helpful advice is in order.... Are you planning on using CMP
                data sets or pcgen default sets? I'm inclined to follow the standards of
                the set you'll be working with. Integration and consistency make for a
                less headache filled endeavor.

                Of course, the next part is, which one makes more sense to you? If you
                grasp the concept underlying the structure then it makes duplicating it
                easier. :)

                Have I confused you yet?

                ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



                Brandon Morrison wrote:
                > And for the record, I'm not bashing Barak or anything like that. He's
                > been great at answering my questions over there. Must be busy or
                > something right now, so I figured I would ask over here.
                >
                > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                > <drew0500@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Unfortunately, some of the differences were based upon being different.
                >> But I'm glad you liked the quick and dirty explanation. I'll have to
                >> look at the CMP stuff and see how Barak/CMP set it up. Like most
                >>
                > things,
                >
                >> there aren't "right" and "wrong" ways, just different ways to achieve
                >> the same results.
                >>
                >> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                >> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                >> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                >> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                >>
                >>> <chuckle> I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was
                >>>
                > just kind
                >
                >>> of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know having
                >>> been on the CMP boards that there are differences between the way CMP
                >>> and non-CMP monkeys handle things. I was just looking to see if there
                >>> was a particular reason that anyone happened to know about.
                >>>
                >>> Thanks for the answer and I appreciate it.
                >>>
                >>> Brandon
                >>>
                >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@>
                >>> wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> Hi Brandon,
                >>>>
                >>>> Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or doesn't
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> do
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting him. In
                >>>> most cases you'll get the wrong answer.
                >>>>
                >>>> Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or
                >>>>
                > what the
                >
                >>>> logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> monkey
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
                >>>> answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
                >>>> monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.
                >>>>
                >>>> Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes,
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> well
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
                >>>> could answer that.
                >>>>
                >>>> What I do is look at how it interacts.
                >>>> The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> It's
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> dragon.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> For us I think it's more flexible.
                >>>>
                >>>> Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they did.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> I'm
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.
                >>>>
                >>>> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                >>>> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                >>>> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                >>>> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>> Hello:
                >>>>> I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>> I'm
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>> more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
                >>>>> at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
                >>>>> into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
                >>>>> dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that reason
                >>>>> might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>> and
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>> want to know what the best approach might be.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Thanks in advance
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brandon Morrison
                Well, I was having problem with something in a particular CMP dataset and am trying to figure out the best way to redo it to make it work the way it s supposed
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                  Well, I was having problem with something in a particular CMP dataset
                  and am trying to figure out the best way to redo it to make it work
                  the way it's supposed to. For this one particular, I've pretty much
                  done it the way PCGEN does it, which I hope will work with what needs
                  to happen.

                  BTW, the list editor window needs some work. ;)

                  Brandon

                  --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                  <drew0500@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't think Barak or anyone inferred anything derogatory in your
                  > comments. So no worries there. Yeah, unfortunately us simians are kept
                  > very busy.
                  >
                  > I guess helpful advice is in order.... Are you planning on using CMP
                  > data sets or pcgen default sets? I'm inclined to follow the
                  standards of
                  > the set you'll be working with. Integration and consistency make for a
                  > less headache filled endeavor.
                  >
                  > Of course, the next part is, which one makes more sense to you? If you
                  > grasp the concept underlying the structure then it makes duplicating it
                  > easier. :)
                  >
                  > Have I confused you yet?
                  >
                  > ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                  > ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                  > "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Brandon Morrison wrote:
                  > > And for the record, I'm not bashing Barak or anything like that. He's
                  > > been great at answering my questions over there. Must be busy or
                  > > something right now, so I figured I would ask over here.
                  > >
                  > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                  > > <drew0500@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Unfortunately, some of the differences were based upon being
                  different.
                  > >> But I'm glad you liked the quick and dirty explanation. I'll have to
                  > >> look at the CMP stuff and see how Barak/CMP set it up. Like most
                  > >>
                  > > things,
                  > >
                  > >> there aren't "right" and "wrong" ways, just different ways to
                  achieve
                  > >> the same results.
                  > >>
                  > >> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > >> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                  > >> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                  > >> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>> <chuckle> I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was
                  > >>>
                  > > just kind
                  > >
                  > >>> of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know
                  having
                  > >>> been on the CMP boards that there are differences between the
                  way CMP
                  > >>> and non-CMP monkeys handle things. I was just looking to see if
                  there
                  > >>> was a particular reason that anyone happened to know about.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Thanks for the answer and I appreciate it.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Brandon
                  > >>>
                  > >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                  <drew0500@>
                  > >>> wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> Hi Brandon,
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or
                  doesn't
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> do
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting
                  him. In
                  > >>>> most cases you'll get the wrong answer.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or
                  > >>>>
                  > > what the
                  > >
                  > >>>> logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> monkey
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
                  > >>>> answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
                  > >>>> monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes,
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> well
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
                  > >>>> could answer that.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> What I do is look at how it interacts.
                  > >>>> The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> It's
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> dragon.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> For us I think it's more flexible.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they
                  did.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>> I'm
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > >>>> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                  > >>>> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                  > >>>> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>> Hello:
                  > >>>>> I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>> I'm
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>>> more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've
                  looked
                  > >>>>> at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case
                  Dragons)
                  > >>>>> into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
                  > >>>>> dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that
                  reason
                  > >>>>> might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>> and
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>>> want to know what the best approach might be.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Thanks in advance
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> ------------------------------------
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Andrew Maitland
                  BTW, the list editor window needs some work. ;) That is in the works. Yeah, use whichever method feels best. Though drop a note to Barak so he can fix the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                    BTW, the list editor window needs some work. ;)


                    That is in the works.

                    Yeah, use whichever method feels best. Though drop a note to Barak so he
                    can fix the sets before the CMP WotC deadline happens and then everyone
                    is stuck with it.

                    ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                    ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                    "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"



                    Brandon Morrison wrote:
                    > Well, I was having problem with something in a particular CMP dataset
                    > and am trying to figure out the best way to redo it to make it work
                    > the way it's supposed to. For this one particular, I've pretty much
                    > done it the way PCGEN does it, which I hope will work with what needs
                    > to happen.
                    >
                    > BTW, the list editor window needs some work. ;)
                    >
                    > Brandon
                    >
                    > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                    > <drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> I don't think Barak or anyone inferred anything derogatory in your
                    >> comments. So no worries there. Yeah, unfortunately us simians are kept
                    >> very busy.
                    >>
                    >> I guess helpful advice is in order.... Are you planning on using CMP
                    >> data sets or pcgen default sets? I'm inclined to follow the
                    >>
                    > standards of
                    >
                    >> the set you'll be working with. Integration and consistency make for a
                    >> less headache filled endeavor.
                    >>
                    >> Of course, the next part is, which one makes more sense to you? If you
                    >> grasp the concept underlying the structure then it makes duplicating it
                    >> easier. :)
                    >>
                    >> Have I confused you yet?
                    >>
                    >> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    >> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                    >> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                    >> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> And for the record, I'm not bashing Barak or anything like that. He's
                    >>> been great at answering my questions over there. Must be busy or
                    >>> something right now, so I figured I would ask over here.
                    >>>
                    >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                    >>> <drew0500@> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>> Unfortunately, some of the differences were based upon being
                    >>>>
                    > different.
                    >
                    >>>> But I'm glad you liked the quick and dirty explanation. I'll have to
                    >>>> look at the CMP stuff and see how Barak/CMP set it up. Like most
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>> things,
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>> there aren't "right" and "wrong" ways, just different ways to
                    >>>>
                    > achieve
                    >
                    >>>> the same results.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    >>>> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                    >>>> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                    >>>> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> <chuckle> I was not looking for a real detailed answer, I was
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>> just kind
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>>> of curious as to why and what was the specific reason. I know
                    >>>>>
                    > having
                    >
                    >>>>> been on the CMP boards that there are differences between the
                    >>>>>
                    > way CMP
                    >
                    >>>>> and non-CMP monkeys handle things. I was just looking to see if
                    >>>>>
                    > there
                    >
                    >>>>> was a particular reason that anyone happened to know about.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Thanks for the answer and I appreciate it.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Brandon
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland
                    >>>>>
                    > <drew0500@>
                    >
                    >>>>> wrote:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> Hi Brandon,
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Unfortunately, asking the mass group of PCGen why CMP does or
                    >>>>>>
                    > doesn't
                    >
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> do
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> something is like asking a criminal why the cop is arresting
                    >>>>>>
                    > him. In
                    >
                    >>>>>> most cases you'll get the wrong answer.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Since most of the monkeys here don't own or understand why or
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>> what the
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>>>> logic was, they can't answer in the best light. There is only one
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> monkey
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> here who'd know the answer, and that is Barak. He's more likely to
                    >>>>>> answer your question over on the CMP boards. *As well as the other
                    >>>>>> monkeys who work to maintain the CMP data sets.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Now, if you want our explanation on why we did Dragons as classes,
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> well
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> I'm sure Tir, Eddy, or one of the older monkeys who created the set
                    >>>>>> could answer that.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> What I do is look at how it interacts.
                    >>>>>> The class system is based on the dragon "HD" it's not a true class.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> It's
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> got all the things that make a dragon at each junction of life a
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> dragon.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> For us I think it's more flexible.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Again, Barak is better to explain the reasons CMP did what they
                    >>>>>>
                    > did.
                    >
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>> I'm
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> sure some of it was "it was a better way" at the time.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> ~ Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    >>>>>> ~ Admin Silverback, PCGen Board of Directors
                    >>>>>> ~ Data Chimp, Tracker Gibbon, Docs Tamarin
                    >>>>>> "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Brandon Morrison wrote:
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Hello:
                    >>>>>>> I'm kind of wondering something and it's not a right wrong, but
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>> I'm
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>>> more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've
                    >>>>>>>
                    > looked
                    >
                    >>>>>>> at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case
                    >>>>>>>
                    > Dragons)
                    >
                    >>>>>>> into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
                    >>>>>>> dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> I'm just curious if there is a reason for that and what that
                    >>>>>>>
                    > reason
                    >
                    >>>>>>> might be. I'm curious because I'm having to rebuild some monsters
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>> and
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>>> want to know what the best approach might be.
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Thanks in advance
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>>>>
                    >>>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tir Gwaith
                    I normally ignore these threads, but this one ended up being longer than most, and included multiple posts from Andrew, so it piqued my interest. I m the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                      I normally ignore these threads, but this one ended up being longer
                      than most, and included multiple posts from Andrew, so it piqued my
                      interest.

                      I'm the original author of the PCGen dragons, based on work by Emily
                      Smirle (I hope I spelled her name right). She got most parts of the
                      Green Dragon right (and that is if I remember the color right :p ),
                      and got me actually thinking of using the Class and HD bit. Before
                      that, I did everything using classes and some templates.

                      Dragons in the 3.0 MM aren't "default", but are meant to be customized
                      - there is no spell list, no skill bonuses, or even feats listed for a
                      default. There are some generalities, but nothing "finished". Heck,
                      even the abilities are listed on a table, all based on age. So, with
                      the early stuff we had for Monster code, the true dragons completely
                      ignored, except using the newer code for MONSTERCLASS (automatically
                      granting certain class levels), which was designed for if someone
                      didn't want a default monster. Which worked great for the dragons,
                      that didn't have any default. :)

                      It makes things much easier to maintain (at least for me), and allows
                      for a critical part, that basically dictated that we needed to go to
                      it in the early days: Spellcasting levels work smoothly. Back then,
                      it was a bit messy.

                      Other factors: Allows a DM to move a dragon up a few HD w/o gaining
                      age, and with only a minor hiccup, move a dragon up an age if desired.

                      --
                      Tir Gwaith
                      PCGen LST Chimp
                    • Tir Gwaith
                      ... That would be races and some templates.. I didn t really know any other file-types back then. -- Tir Gwaith PCGen LST Chimp
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                        > and got me actually thinking of using the Class and HD bit. Before
                        > that, I did everything using classes and some templates.

                        That would be races and some templates..

                        I didn't really know any other file-types back then.

                        --
                        Tir Gwaith
                        PCGen LST Chimp
                      • Barak
                        ... Two reasons... dataset age and inertia. :p First, age. Many of the tags necessary to do it the way it is done today did not exist when the first sets
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
                          > at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
                          > into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
                          > dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.

                          Two reasons... dataset age and inertia. :p

                          First, age. Many of the tags necessary to do it the way it is done today
                          did not exist when the first sets were created (as noted by Tir earlier in
                          the thread). What with WotC pulling the CMP license, causing all of my data
                          minions to disappear and leaving just me tending the garden, there's been no
                          time to try and update to more current practices.

                          Second, inertia. When datasets were still being produced, many data monkeys
                          were new to data entry, so were pointed to the existing datasets to use as
                          examples. So, of course, they got built the same way.

                          Barak
                        • Brandon Morrison
                          Gotcha. Thanks Barak and Tir and everyone else. I was just curious and appreciate the history lesson. ... today ... earlier in ... my data ... been no ...
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 5, 2008
                            Gotcha. Thanks Barak and Tir and everyone else. I was just curious
                            and appreciate the history lesson.

                            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Barak" <barak@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > more curious. Why do CMP datasets (in many of the cases I've looked
                            > > at) combine all the information for a monster (in this case Dragons)
                            > > into basically one line vs. the PCGEN rsrd dataset where they have
                            > > dragons given class levels and abilities allocated that way.
                            >
                            > Two reasons... dataset age and inertia. :p
                            >
                            > First, age. Many of the tags necessary to do it the way it is done
                            today
                            > did not exist when the first sets were created (as noted by Tir
                            earlier in
                            > the thread). What with WotC pulling the CMP license, causing all of
                            my data
                            > minions to disappear and leaving just me tending the garden, there's
                            been no
                            > time to try and update to more current practices.
                            >
                            > Second, inertia. When datasets were still being produced, many data
                            monkeys
                            > were new to data entry, so were pointed to the existing datasets to
                            use as
                            > examples. So, of course, they got built the same way.
                            >
                            > Barak
                            >
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