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I could use some help with substitution levels

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  • Gene
    *** Start MODERATOR insert *** Remember folks, we have a new policy. We will answer these questions in generic terms, but not ask the poster to post the
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 1 1:50 PM
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      *** Start MODERATOR insert ***

      Remember folks, we have a new policy. We will answer these questions in generic terms, but not ask the poster to post the question in generic terms. I will probably add this reminder for the first couple till we all remember.

      -- david
      Papa-DRB

      *** Finis Moderator insert ***


      Hello,

      I'm trying to enter some closed content (from Races of the Wild
      initially and eventually other books) for my campaign and I wanted to
      use some of the racial substitution levels.

      In preparation for 5.12.0 being released, I've been trying to enter
      the data into RC3. I seem to have gotten some of it working but it
      appears that either I'm doing something wrong with how I'm
      implementing them or there's a few problems with how the rules on
      substitution works. I'm hoping these are issues with my
      implementation but I'm not sure.

      Since it's closed content, I don't want to be too specific in my
      example/explanation but if you have RotW, it's not hard to know what
      I'm attempting. I apologize if these have been brought up before and
      for the length of the message but I wanted to be thorough.

      Examples:
      The base class I'm modifying is Ranger. In my substitution levels,
      the HD, Skill Points, skill list and some feats differ. For 1st level
      I copied all the FEATAUTO, BONUS, CSKILL and ADD tags except where
      the substitution class was different. According to the books
      (Specifically Races of the Wild pg 155) when a substitution level
      changes the HD or class skill list, it applies only to that level.
      You also need not take prior or subsequent substitution levels which
      can make things a bit difficult. (Races of Stone Pg 146 gives an
      example of this. Races of the Wild uses a level 1 char which is a bad
      example as it implies you need the prior levels)


      HD: This could be considered a bit nitpicky but in case this behavior
      was not intended or desired, here goes. At 1st level the character
      gets a lower HD. I got this part working fine. At 2nd level
      however, there's no substitution. In order to do that I did HD:6
      however when I leveled up to level 2, it was still HD:6. I can't
      figure out how to reset the HD back.

      Another example is if at 1st level I didn't select the substitution
      level, I get the normal HD. When I select a substitution level later,
      the HD is lowered (I added a HD:6 ot the subst level). Once I level
      up again, the next level remains at HD6 instead of going back to HD8.

      I tried to add a Ranger.MOD line and update the HD for each level but
      it didn't seem to be applied or the prior substitution level overrode
      it.
      Example:
      CLASS:Ranger.MOD<tab>HD:8
      1<tab>HD:8
      2<tab>HD:8
      3<tab>HD:8...)

      I haven't tried changing the rsrd_classes_base.lst but I thought that
      would be a drastic course of action.


      Since my campaign does HPs as (HD/2)+1/level I could probably add a
      bonus(+/-) to the HP either in the class file which would lock it in
      to our campaign or I can select a different apropriate value from the
      list however I don't think the intent of the rule regarding subst
      levels is adhered to.


      SKILLPOINTS: This is a bit hairy because the rules seem a little
      murky here. Because the rules state only the HD and Class Skills
      List change (although obviously the other class features (SA/Feats)
      also change when selecting a substitution level), it could be
      inferred that once you take a substitution level, those skill points
      are gained at every level (which seems to be the case if the
      substitution level is chosen at 1st level). However, in the
      description of the class it lists skill points gained per level (or
      4x that for 1st level) which seems to indicate that these extra skill
      points should only be given when the substitution level is chosen.
      In the actual implementation, if I change the STARTSKILLPTS for 1st
      level then that seems to apply to all levels even ones that aren't
      substituted. If I didn't choose the subst level at 1st level then I
      kept the lower skill points even when I chose a later substitution
      level. (Therefore the level chosen at 1st level locked the number of
      skill points for all subsequent levels in the class.) To get around
      that I did a BONUS:SKILLPOINTS|NUMBER|INT*(bonus) for 1st level and
      will do just the bonus for the substitution levels.


      CSKILL: At 1st, 4th and 10th levels, the substitution level adds a
      new skill to the class skill list (per the rules for that level
      only). When selecting skills, the class skill list is not being
      reset back to the base class's skill list. I can still select the
      added skill that I should only get during my substitution levels.
      This isn't a big deal in my case since I can just enforce not
      selecting it at those levels however if a class skill list removes
      skills at say 1st level, then unless that works differently they
      would never have access to those skills.



      FEATAUTO: Additionally, since this is a ranger, there were some new
      favored enemies added with different bonuses. I got this to work for
      level 1 however, on subsequent levels the rangers combat style list
      didn't appear nor did the subsequent favored enemies list.

      To implement the additional favored enemies I just added some new
      favored enemies entries with a prerace tag and those appear at 1st
      level but no other levels, substitution or not since the pick list
      doesn't appear at all.

      Another thing I couldn't figure out either is how to hide these
      additional favored enemies if they didn't select the substitution
      level. I may have just not read enough of the docs here though. (As
      I interpret it, if they chose the substitution level at level 1,
      they're eligible for the new favored enemies, otherwise they're not.)


      SOURCELONG: I've also noticed that in some of my closed content files
      (not this one though), I'm getting a message that there's no source
      long entry on a few classes and a template. I checked them and
      there's definately a SOURCELONG tag on each of them but I noticed
      that it happens to the last item in each file. (In the case of the
      classes, it's the last tag before the level progression, the same as
      with the other classes in the same file.)



      Has anyone else tried these mods and had similar issues? Is there a
      way around these issues?
    • Eric C Smith
      Hi Gene, I can t help with most of this without doing a of of digging, but I can help with the HD issue. ... You will need to use the HITDIE tag instead of the
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 1 2:23 PM
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        Hi Gene,

        I can't help with most of this without doing a of of digging, but I
        can help with the HD issue.

        You wrote:
        > HD: This could be considered a bit nitpicky but in case this behavior
        > was not intended or desired, here goes. At 1st level the character
        > gets a lower HD. I got this part working fine. At 2nd level
        > however, there's no substitution. In order to do that I did HD:6
        > however when I leveled up to level 2, it was still HD:6. I can't
        > figure out how to reset the HD back.
        You will need to use the HITDIE tag instead of the HD tag. HD is
        used on Class lines while HITDIE is used on Class Level lines.

        Maredudd
      • Gene
        Woo! One problem down, THANKS! :) ... I ... behavior
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 1 2:36 PM
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          Woo! One problem down, THANKS! :)

          --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Eric C Smith <maredudd@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Gene,
          >
          > I can't help with most of this without doing a of of digging, but
          I
          > can help with the HD issue.
          >
          > You wrote:
          > > HD: This could be considered a bit nitpicky but in case this
          behavior
          > > was not intended or desired, here goes. At 1st level the character
          > > gets a lower HD. I got this part working fine. At 2nd level
          > > however, there's no substitution. In order to do that I did HD:6
          > > however when I leveled up to level 2, it was still HD:6. I can't
          > > figure out how to reset the HD back.
          > You will need to use the HITDIE tag instead of the HD tag. HD is
          > used on Class lines while HITDIE is used on Class Level lines.
          >
          > Maredudd
          >
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