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Re: [Otway] A fear of Xen

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  • Peter Beasley
    well said PB
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
      well said

      PB


      On Saturday, June 1, 2002, at 01:23 AM, mgdean wrote:

      > Listen, I know I'm probably in the minority here, but it's not funny to
      > go
      > bandying terms like "wogs" about. I guess it was meant to be funny, but
      > it
      > isn't. I'm sure there were no racist sentiments being expressed, but
      > I'm fed
      > up with all this "I'm not a racist but..." stuff. If you're not keen on
      > black people, keep it to yourself. I try to put up with all the
      > sentiments
      > expressed in this group, but some things are too much.
      >
    • Jane Armstrong
      ... Very well said Mark. I agree with you 100% An Asian friend of mine has already unsubscribed from this list because of previous racist remarks - and it
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
        >Listen, I know I'm probably in the minority here, but it's not funny to go
        >bandying terms like "wogs" about. I guess it was meant to be funny, but it
        >isn't. I'm sure there were no racist sentiments being expressed, but I'm fed
        >up with all this "I'm not a racist but..." stuff. If you're not keen on
        >black people, keep it to yourself. I try to put up with all the sentiments
        >expressed in this group, but some things are too much.
        Very well said Mark. I agree with you 100% An Asian friend of mine has already unsubscribed from this list because of previous racist remarks - and it really doesn't reflect well on John either, especially since this is an OPEN list for all (including the media) to read.
        Jane




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • cockney_bill
        ... and it really doesn t reflect well on John either, especially since this is an OPEN list for all (including the media) to read. Issue aside, it appears to
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
          --- In Otway@y..., "Jane Armstrong" <janea@d...> wrote:
          and it really doesn't reflect well on John either, especially since
          this is an OPEN list for all (including the media) to read.


          Issue aside, it appears to be a funny misconception by a couple of
          people on this group that the worlds media really have nothing better
          to do than monitor the Otway yahoo group's postings.
          GET REAL. There is a World cup on, war is likely to erupt in India,
          illegal immgrants are coming over in their thousands, the Queen has a
          jubilee on, Stephen Byers has resigned yet the worlds press are too
          busy monitoring an e-list of some Punk singer who hasn't been in the
          charts since 1977!!!

          And being an OPEN group ANYONE can join and say what they wish, it
          hardly bears any reflection on John does it?

          Imagine the headlines 'Otway has a hit single but back in June one of
          the members of his open yahoogroup made a joke of poor taste'
          Being a group of fans we will all have different likes and dislikes,
          find different things funny, and some people will be more touchy than
          others.
          I am offended by some things, and sometimes I offend people - No
          b***dy different to life in the real world really.

          Billy
        • Steve Pond
          ... Ever wondered why the person who started this list doesn`t get mail from it any more? You my friend are the reason. -S.
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
            On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:13:32 -0000, you sent through the ether:

            >I am offended by some things, and sometimes I offend people - No
            >b***dy different to life in the real world really.
            >
            >Billy


            Ever wondered why the person who started this list doesn`t get mail from it
            any more?

            You my friend are the reason.

            -S.
          • cockney_bill
            To be honest I hadn t ever wondered. However what I do wonder is this - If you don t get any mail from it, how are you able to reply to mail from it? ... Ever
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
              To be honest I hadn't ever wondered.

              However what I do wonder is this - If you don't get any mail from it,
              how are you able to reply to mail from it?

              --- In Otway@y..., Steve Pond <Steve@d...> wrote:
              Ever wondered why the person who started this list doesn`t get mail
              from it any more?

              You my friend are the reason.

              -S.
            • Neil Sedgwick
              ... Some cynics might suggest that the tabloids made those stories up so that the drooling retards that read them would feel justified in not giving a moments
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
                > I’m not talking about being over PC here. We all agree that the days of
                > Brent council trying to ban “baa baa black sheep” if true, where mad

                Some cynics might suggest that the tabloids made those stories up so that
                the drooling retards that read them would feel justified in not giving a
                moments thought to their offensive behaviour. Instead, they could just
                assume that everyone is too touchy, and say things like "I am offended by
                some things, and sometimes I offend people - No b***dy different to life in
                the real world really."

                You have to wonder about the mentality of someone who thinks "wog" is a
                perfectly acceptable word, but that "bloody" should be censored.
              • kmitch87@aol.com
                In a message dated 01/06/02 13:11:42 GMT Daylight Time, ... Like Ruth et al s IT profanity police? I wonder what they will make of all this?! KTR [Non-text
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
                  In a message dated 01/06/02 13:11:42 GMT Daylight Time,
                  neils@... writes:


                  > You have to wonder about the mentality of someone who thinks "wog" is a
                  > perfectly acceptable word, but that "bloody" should be censored.

                  Like Ruth et al's IT profanity police? I wonder what they will make of all
                  this?!

                  KTR


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • cockney_bill
                  ... Some cynics might suggest that the tabloids made those stories up so that the drooling retards that read them would feel justified in not giving a moments
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
                    --- In Otway@y..., "Neil Sedgwick" <neils@n...> wrote:
                    Some cynics might suggest that the tabloids made those stories up so
                    that the drooling retards that read them would feel justified in not
                    giving a moments thought to their offensive behaviour. Instead, they
                    could just assume that everyone is too touchy, and say things like "I
                    am offended by some things, and sometimes I offend people - No b***dy
                    different to life in the real world really."
                    >
                    > You have to wonder about the mentality of someone who thinks "wog"
                    is a perfectly acceptable word, but that "bloody" should be censored.


                    Nice - An obvious joke containing the word 'wog' is unacceptable, but
                    calling someone a 'drooling retard' is somehow ok?
                    Define 'drooling retard'? someone with a sense of humour that 'you'
                    find offensive?
                    Sticks and stones etc


                    Personally I wonder about the mentality of people who get soooo upset
                    at something which was quite obviously a joke.
                    If that kind of thing upsets you and gets your heckles up - fine, you
                    must spend a lot of your life being unhappy though. Can't you
                    just 'chill' and ignore that which bothers you?
                    Lets face it. Had I said 'Let's hope all this flag waving doesn't
                    encourage Xenophobia' then gone on to say 'Did anyone else watch
                    France get beaten by Senegal' it wouldn't have been the funniest gag
                    of all time would it!!!

                    And as Kev quite rightly pointed out I censored B***dy for the
                    reasons of IT censors.
                  • Neil Sedgwick
                    ... Well, so what if it causes offence? It s just like in real life innit? Anyway, it wouldn t have been the funniest joke of all time if I d written silly
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
                      > Nice - An obvious joke containing the word 'wog' is unacceptable, but
                      > calling someone a 'drooling retard' is somehow ok?

                      Well, so what if it causes offence? It's just like in real life innit?

                      Anyway, it wouldn't have been the funniest joke of all time if I'd written
                      "silly billy" would ii? (Apparently the fact that it isn't the funniest joke
                      of all time, or even remotely funny isn't a bar to using this argument).

                      > Define 'drooling retard'? someone with a sense of humour that 'you'
                      > find offensive?

                      Someone who presumably understands the difference between a closed
                      conversation they'd have between friends, and terms and language they use in
                      a crowded place full of strangers. (I'm presuming you recognise the
                      difference, based on the fact that you're still alive). But the same someone
                      who seems to think that an open internet forum is more like the former than
                      the latter. And then, if that same someone, when it was pointed out politely
                      to them that their "jokes" were offensive, starts behaving like some
                      demented Richard Littlejohn, claiming there's a PC conspiracy going on. And
                      then, when that same someone is replied to in more offensive language they
                      come back with "so what I said is offensive but that isn't?" That someone
                      would be my idea of a drooling retard.

                      > Sticks and stones etc

                      I fail to see the relevance. Although I'm sure there's a fair few pubs in
                      your area where you'd be severely beaten with both if you threw terms like
                      "wog" around with the abandon that you do here.
                    • cockney_bill
                      ... innit? Oh you d have to do a lot harder than that to offend me. I wasn t offended at all, merely pointing out the irony of your statement in that the word
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
                        --- In Otway@y..., "Neil Sedgwick" <neils@n...> wrote:
                        > "Well, so what if it causes offence? It's just like in real life
                        innit?"
                        Oh you'd have to do a lot harder than that to offend me.
                        I wasn't offended at all, merely pointing out the irony of your
                        statement in that the word 'wog' in a joke is offensive then you call
                        me a 'drooling retard'
                        Why is it bad to 'potentially' offend someone, but right to openly
                        try and offend someone else in whatever language you use?
                        I may have unintentionally upset some people but you have set out
                        intentionally to upset me (or try to). Why is one right and one wrong?
                        Seymour and Jane both were along the lines of 'Thats out of order',
                        I'm far more likely to respond and comply with thier wishes than
                        someone who calls me a 'drooling retard' don't you think?

                        "Apparently the fact that it isn't the funniest joke of all time, or
                        even remotely funny isn't a bar to using this argument."
                        Who died and made you the judge of what is and what isn't a good joke
                        then?

                        "I'm presuming you recognize the difference, based on the fact that
                        you're still alive."
                        Your also presuming that everyone is such a whiney little bloke like
                        yourself. Ask anyone who knows me - what I'm like here is what I'm
                        like in everyday life and I've yet to meet someone who works
                        themselves in to such a paddy (is 'paddy' offensive also?)as you over
                        nothing.


                        "And then, if that same someone, when it was pointed out politely
                        to them that their "jokes" were offensive"
                        Oh - 'drooling retard' is as polite as you get then?

                        "starts behaving like some demented Richard Littlejohn, claiming
                        there's a PC conspiracy going on."
                        Read my mails. I'm not claiming any sort of conspiracy. I'm not even
                        acting demented. I'm not upset, ranting or even worried about what I
                        said. I quite enjoy the fact that you have got so worked up though


                        "Although I'm sure there's a fair few pubs in your area where you'd
                        be severely beaten with both if you threw terms like "wog" around
                        with the abandon that you do here."
                        Abandon? To my knowledge I used it once (except when quoting myself)
                        in a joke. Besides which I doubt there's a soul in Colchester who'd
                        give a monkeys should I have told the same joke in a pub here.


                        Anyway, not that I need to explain myself to you, but if anyone else
                        thinks I'm a racist based on a joke then go to my webpage on
                        http://billy.g.freeservers.com
                        look at the page of me with famous people and you will see me with my
                        arms around Pauline Black - the coloured singer from 'The Selecter'.
                        Look at my diary page. More than half the gigs I get to are black
                        bands.
                        If I am a racist, then I'm probably the worst one in the world.

                        If I had openly called someone a 'wog', yes that's offensive, but in
                        the context of a joke then no I don't think its offensive.
                        Maybe it is to you, but the day I start worrying about what you think
                        of me is the day I seriously worry about getting myself a life.

                        Billy
                      • Eddie Hall
                        ... Did anyone else watch ... Actually, I have to say that I thought Senegal beating France WAS VERY funny. Sepp Blatters re-election WAS funny (in another
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 1, 2002
                          --- cockney_bill <bronco.billy@...> wrote:

                          'Did anyone else watch
                          > France get beaten by Senegal' it wouldn't have been the funniest
                          > gag
                          > of all time would it!!!
                          >

                          Actually, I have to say that I thought Senegal beating France WAS
                          VERY funny.

                          Sepp Blatters re-election WAS funny (in another way).

                          Saudi Arabia being in the finals is funny.

                          Paul Gascoignes wig was funny. But he's still a plonker. Gifted,
                          but a plonker. No need to ask where he gets it from, is there Ali?

                          Football, as the cliché says, is a funny old game.

                          Can we now accept that the choice of words (of various people) in
                          earlier postings was unfortunate rather than malicious, and get on
                          with having some FUN? I thought it was we old 'uns that were
                          supposed to be the miserable old f*rts (censored for the benefit of
                          Ruth's Thought Police).

                          Cheers m'dears.

                          Ed.

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                        • Neil Sedgwick
                          I was wondering whether to reply to each point in turn, or just write a reply like ooh, get her! God knows why, but I decided to take the long-winded route.
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 2, 2002
                            I was wondering whether to reply to each point in turn, or just write a
                            reply like "ooh, get her!" God knows why, but I decided to take the
                            long-winded route.

                            > > "Well, so what if it causes offence? It's just like in real life
                            > innit?"
                            > Oh you'd have to do a lot harder than that to offend me.

                            Read what I said again. Did it mention offending you specifically? Just to
                            remind you, you're not the only person on this list.

                            > I wasn't offended at all, merely pointing out the irony of your
                            > statement in that the word 'wog' in a joke is offensive then you call
                            > me a 'drooling retard'
                            > Why is it bad to 'potentially' offend someone, but right to openly
                            > try and offend someone else in whatever language you use?

                            Can I just clear this one up. I called tabloid readers "drooling retards".
                            Although obviously that does include you.

                            > I may have unintentionally upset some people but you have set out
                            > intentionally to upset me (or try to). Why is one right and one wrong?
                            > Seymour and Jane both were along the lines of 'Thats out of order',
                            > I'm far more likely to respond and comply with thier wishes than
                            > someone who calls me a 'drooling retard' don't you think?

                            Yeah, but still quite unlikely to respond and comply.

                            > Who died and made you the judge of what is and what isn't a good joke
                            > then?

                            Surely, if someone died, they'd be in no position whatsoever to promote
                            someone to a position of comedy arbiter. Try to hold together a sensible
                            argument.

                            > Your also presuming that everyone is such a whiney little bloke like
                            > yourself.

                            That should be "you're" actually. ;)

                            > Ask anyone who knows me - what I'm like here is what I'm
                            > like in everyday life and I've yet to meet someone who works
                            > themselves in to such a paddy (is 'paddy' offensive also?)as you over
                            > nothing.

                            Billy, I've met you in real life on a couple of occasions, and you seem to
                            be a perfectly nice chap. It's just a shame that every now and then, on the
                            list you come across as a right berk.

                            Oh, and since you've met me then surely you've met someone who works
                            themselves in to exactly as much of a paddy as me. Again, try to hold
                            together a sensible argument.

                            > Oh - 'drooling retard' is as polite as you get then?
                            I didn't claim that was meant to be polite. When I talked about polite
                            responses, I was referring to Seymour et al. Although come to think of it,
                            it probably is as polite as I get. Especially when I've had as bad a night's
                            sleep as I'd had the other day.

                            > Read my mails. I'm not claiming any sort of conspiracy. I'm not even
                            > acting demented. I'm not upset, ranting or even worried about what I
                            > said. I quite enjoy the fact that you have got so worked up though

                            Hmmm. That's you all over isn't it? You do seem to enjoy deliberately
                            provoking the list. It just seems odd that someone who regularly contributes
                            to the list, also trolls it occasionally.

                            > Abandon? To my knowledge I used it once (except when quoting myself)
                            > in a joke.

                            Fair cop, that was a poor choice of word.

                            > Besides which I doubt there's a soul in Colchester who'd
                            > give a monkeys should I have told the same joke in a pub here.

                            You're probably right. Most of them are probably too busy thinking of how
                            they can get the hell out of Colchester.

                            > Anyway, not that I need to explain myself to you, but if anyone else
                            > thinks I'm a racist based on a joke then go to my webpage on
                            > http://billy.g.freeservers.com
                            > look at the page of me with famous people and you will see me with my
                            > arms around Pauline Black - the coloured singer from 'The Selecter'.
                            > Look at my diary page. More than half the gigs I get to are black
                            > bands.

                            Billy I don't think you're a racist. I'm just somewhat bemused by the way
                            you defend your right to talk like one.

                            > If I am a racist, then I'm probably the worst one in the world.

                            (a) I don't think you're a racist
                            (b) Even if you were, you couldn't hope to be as rubbish as some of the ones
                            I've encountered on-line. For a start, you're not a Man U fan.

                            > If I had openly called someone a 'wog', yes that's offensive, but in
                            > the context of a joke then no I don't think its offensive.

                            I'm confused here. Is it the context of a joke that makes it inoffensive, or
                            the number of people? Because unless I'm very much mistaken you openly
                            called 11 people 'wog's.

                            > Maybe it is to you, but the day I start worrying about what you think
                            > of me is the day I seriously worry about getting myself a life.

                            Is that just me, or does it apply to everyone else on the list?


                            It's probably not worth spending much more time on this. Funnily enough, my
                            other half saw some of the messages in this thread and said "I thought you
                            were mates with him". I don't really want to give the impression that I'm
                            declaring war on Billy.

                            However, I'll just ask this one final question of you Billy. Why is it that
                            if someone asks you not to include swearing in your messages because of
                            issues they have with their IT policy at work, and it might force them to
                            leave the list, you comply. Yet, if people say they find some of your other
                            language offensive, and it may cause them to leave the list, you claim it's
                            their problem.

                            Remember, this list is totally unmoderated. As unmoderated lists go, it's
                            uncommonly friendly. Let's (and I include myself in this) try and keep it
                            that way eh?
                          • cockney_bill
                            ... Your quote EXACTLY was Some cynics might suggest that the tabloids made those stories up so that the drooling retards that read them would feel justified
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 2, 2002
                              --- In Otway@y..., "Neil Sedgwick" <neils@n...> wrote:
                              > Read what I said again. Did it mention offending you specifically?

                              Your quote EXACTLY was
                              'Some cynics might suggest that the tabloids made those stories up so
                              that the drooling retards that read them would feel justified in not
                              giving a moments thought to their offensive behaviour. Instead, they
                              could just assume that everyone is too touchy, and say things like "I
                              am offended by some things, and sometimes I offend people - No b***dy
                              different to life in the real world really."

                              So by implication all tabloid readers are 'drooling retards' and
                              secondly you quote me, therefore you did mention me specifically as
                              a 'drooling retard'
                              Maybe I am too touchy on the subject. I actually once had a brother
                              who was born a 'retard' and died very young. I have no problem with
                              jokes about 'spastics' and 'retards', sometimes laughter is a great
                              medicine BUT to call someone a 'spastic' or a 'retard' to offend them
                              is, in my opinion, not very nice at all

                              The rest of your mail was just being pedantic, so I'll ignore it.
                              I do agree though that too much time has been spent on this one.
                              I can't 'promise' I wont offend anyone again, although I would like
                              to think that I have never been malicious in my mailings, and any
                              offence caused was never intended as such.
                              I am what I am. The way I come across is the way I come across in
                              real life. Up until joining this list I have never come across people
                              who found offence in the way I express myself.

                              Anyway, enough is enough. I think I'll join Ali in the wilderness
                              (although I doubt he'll accept me with open arms!!!)
                            • Eddie Hall
                              ... As unmoderated lists ... At last. Took a long time to get there, didn t it? Except that the thought of you two actually KISSING to make up makes my
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 2, 2002
                                --- Neil Sedgwick <neils@...> wrote: >

                                As unmoderated lists
                                > go, it's
                                > uncommonly friendly. Let's (and I include myself in this) try and
                                > keep it
                                > that way eh?
                                >

                                At last. Took a long time to get there, didn't it? Except that the
                                thought of you two actually KISSING to make up makes my stomach turn.

                                On second thoughts, go back to slagging each other off. No, don't.
                                Now you've got me all confused.

                                =====
                                Regards,

                                Ed.

                                -----------------------------------------------------------
                                When are we gonna have any fun now that Ali's gone?

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                              • Neil Sedgwick
                                ... It makes your stomach turn? How do you think it makes me feel.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 2, 2002
                                  > At last. Took a long time to get there, didn't it? Except that the
                                  > thought of you two actually KISSING to make up makes my stomach turn.

                                  It makes your stomach turn? How do you think it makes me feel.
                                • Neil Sedgwick
                                  ... I agree, it was a spectacularly poor choice of words and for that I apologise. I may be a whiney little bloke, but I like to think I m big enough to admit
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 2, 2002
                                    > Maybe I am too touchy on the subject. I actually once had a brother
                                    > who was born a 'retard' and died very young. I have no problem with
                                    > jokes about 'spastics' and 'retards', sometimes laughter is a great
                                    > medicine BUT to call someone a 'spastic' or a 'retard' to offend them
                                    > is, in my opinion, not very nice at all

                                    I agree, it was a spectacularly poor choice of words and for that I
                                    apologise. I may be a whiney little bloke, but I like to think I'm big
                                    enough to admit when I'm wrong.

                                    Oh, and as for laughter being a great medicine, speaking from experience I
                                    wouldn't recommend it if your sternum's healing up.
                                  • cockney_bill
                                    ... I agree, it was a spectacularly poor choice of words and for that I ... big enough to admit when I m wrong. And so am I (big enough to admit when I m wrong
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 4, 2002
                                      --- In Otway@y..., "Neil Sedgwick" <neils@n...> wrote:
                                      I agree, it was a spectacularly poor choice of words and for that I
                                      > apologise. I may be a whiney little bloke, but I like to think I'm
                                      big enough to admit when I'm wrong.


                                      And so am I (big enough to admit when I'm wrong - NOT a whiney little
                                      bloke!!)








                                      So when the time comes that I am - I will

                                      Billy
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