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[hocna] PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS

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  • Fr. PanagiotesCarras
    ... -- Mundus vult decipi (the world wants to be deceived) Regards:Tasos mailto:hrhverv@idirect.com
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 29, 1999
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    • Amin Y. Khalil
      I got this message and I m not sure of who Fr Panagiotes Carras is , but I m very familiar of the story enclosed in the file since I m a Coptic orthodox . I
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 29, 1999
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        I got this message and I'm not sure of who Fr Panagiotes Carras is , but
        I'm very familiar of the story enclosed in the file since I'm a Coptic
        orthodox .
        I followed the story day by day when the news first broke out from Egypt
        mainly by the British Press.
        This is only one of hundreds of similar stories in the recent history of the
        Coptic church and I'll be happy to forward them if anybody is interested !!
        Joseph

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Fr. PanagiotesCarras <pcarras@...>
        To: HOCNA, EGROUP <hocna@egroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 3:05 PM
        Subject: [hocna] PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS


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      • FatherElias@aol.com
        For context this incident of the crucifixion of Coptic Christians happened last year. It is interesting and sad that Eastern Orthodox sources did not
        Message 3 of 3 , Sep 29, 1999
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          For "context" this incident of the "crucifixion" of Coptic Christians
          happened last year. It is interesting and sad that "Eastern Orthodox"
          sources did not focus on this incident until Evangelical Minister Chuck
          Colson reported the incident on his "BreakPoint" radio commentary. Shortly
          others picked it up. The Boston Globe wrote a piece also. It is found at
          http://www.celticrite.org/news/news28.htm .

          There is a "Report on Religious Freedom in Egypt--State Department 97/07/22"
          published at
          http://www.celticrite.org/news/news47.htm - from a House sub-committee

          We told the story before the Copts in the U.S. did, and when we told it we
          were asked by the Copts NOT to tell the story. The reason being the fear of
          reprisals in Egypt. It was not until we read BAT YE'OR 's "THE DECLINE OF
          EASTERN CHRISTIANITY UNDER ISLAM - From Jihad to Dhimmitude" that the
          Coptic request made sense to us. It is published at
          http://celticrite.org/history/Dhimmitude.htm

          All may find the short over view of Suffering Orthodoxy interesting found at
          http://www.celticrite.org/history/suffer.htm

          One more interesting note: The Rev. Colson just published a commentary
          reflecting shock at the different way in which the killing of Christian
          youths in Fort Worth is being treated by the Justice Department and the media
          as compared to the killing of a single homosexual youth, or the killing of
          Jewish children. I have included it, it is very telling about the underlying
          spirit of our culture and government.

          BreakPoint with Chuck Colson - followed by a "Reality Check" by Fr Symeon
          Elias

          I'm still in shock over the terrible massacre at Wedgwood Baptist Church in
          Ft. Worth, Texas, in which seven young Christians died. But almost as
          shocking to me as the murders themselves is the refusal of our leaders to
          recognize that Christians have become targets of choice for America's
          gun-toting fanatics.

          At Wedgwood, gunman Larry Ashbrook shouted profane epithets that mocked the
          beliefs of Christians. Yet reporters insisted on describing Ashbrook's
          motives as a "mystery." Incredibly, they suggested that his choice of a
          Baptist church as the setting for his bloody rampage was a random one.

          Attorney General Janet Reno, who swiftly labeled recent acts of violence
          against blacks and Jews as "hate crimes," can't seem to drum up the same
          passion for murdered Christians. Instead of labeling Wedgwood a "hate
          crime," as it clearly was, Reno called the massacre "inconceivable," and used
          the tragedy to call for tougher gun laws.

          Now, does anyone seriously doubt that, if Ashbrook had shot up a gay bar or
          an abortion clinic, his motives would have been described as "mysterious" and
          his cold-blooded killings explained away as the actions of a madman? Of
          course not.

          This is no minor oversight. As "New York Post" columnist Rod Dreher put it,
          "The number of Christians killed this year alone by fanatic gunmen greatly
          exceeds the number of abortionists or gays murdered by
          right-wing haters."

          But don't count on the media to expose this fact. Why? Part of the answer is
          that our elites view Christians as
          oppressors--of gays, of women, of anyone who rejects Judeo-Christian
          morality. The idea that Christians themselves are oppressed seems to be of no
          real concern. Some may even privately
          think a little oppression for Christians is a good thing.

          Even more ominously, our elites are actually contributing to the animus
          towards Christians. For example, we recently saw NBC's Katie Couric blaming
          James Dobson for the murder of homosexual Matthew Shepard because Dobson
          openly articulates the biblical teaching that homosexual acts are sinful.
          Movies like "Stigmata," with its lurid plot about a murderous Catholic
          conspiracy, also teaches that Christians are the enemy of humanity. And media
          mogul Ted Turner is famous for calling Christians "idiots" and "bozos," and
          blaming us for many of the world's problems.

          Is it any wonder, then, that fanatics would shoot up a Baptist prayer
          meeting--or target Christian kids at
          Columbine and Paducah?

          What can we do about it? What Christians have always done. The Church has
          historically fought for religious freedom, including the freedom of
          non-Christians. We know that if one group can be singled out without
          consequences, then none of us is safe.

          In his classic, "The City of God," Augustine urged Christians to avail
          themselves of the protection offered by the law of the land. Modern
          Christians should do the same. After all, that's what non-Christians do. For
          example, when fanatics began shooting abortionists and bombing clinics, the
          abortion industry
          demanded--and got--government protection. The FBI was sent to guard their
          gates, and laws were passed to keep even peaceful prolifers from picketing on
          their sidewalks.

          Well, our government--charged by God to uphold justice--should be equally
          concerned when it is Christians who are targeted.

          The Wedgwood shootings have exposed a dreadful double-standard. It's time we
          lovingly educate our government--and our elites--to understood that this
          principle should protect the rights of those they disagree with as well as
          with those with whom they do agree.

          Because if justice is meted out only to those currently in favor with the
          governing elite, none of us is truly safe.

          Copyright (c) 1999 Prison Fellowship Ministries. Reprinted
          with permission. "BreakPoint with Chuck Colson" is a radio
          ministry of Prison Fellowship Ministries.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Reality Check - Critique by Fr Symeon Elias (Fr Symeon's words are begun and
          ended with +++)

          I'm still in shock over the terrible massacre at Wedgwood Baptist Church in
          Ft. Worth, Texas, in which seven young Christians died. But almost as
          shocking to me as the murders themselves is the refusal of our leaders to
          recognize that Christians have become targets of choice for America's
          gun-toting fanatics.

          +++Some of the "gun-toting" fanatics have been in uniform . . . did you sleep
          through the Waco Massacre? Is there comprehension of the true situation in
          the Balkans? the Sudan? Egypt? and many other places where the U.S. has
          actively sought to kill Christians, or stood by and allowed the murderers of
          Christians and those who enslave Christians to actually profit by their
          actions?+++

          At Wedgwood, gunman Larry Ashbrook shouted profane epithets that mocked the
          beliefs of Christians.

          +++So did the ATF at WACO, so did NATO in Kosovo. What did you think the
          nature of the Psy-Ops methods in both cases was?+++

          Yet reporters insisted on describing Ashbrook's motives as a "mystery."
          Incredibly, they suggested that his choice of a Baptist church as the
          setting for his bloody rampage was a random one.

          Attorney General Janet Reno, who swiftly labeled recent acts of violence
          against blacks and Jews as "hate crimes," can't seem to drum up the same
          passion for murdered Christians. Instead of labeling Wedgwood a "hate
          crime," as it clearly was, Reno called the massacre "inconceivable," and used
          the tragedy to call for tougher gun laws.

          Now, does anyone seriously doubt that, if Ashbrook had shot up a gay bar or
          an abortion clinic, his motives would have been described as "mysterious" and
          his cold-blooded killings explained away as the actions of a madman? Of
          course not.

          +++Your observation is absolutely correct. But this is not an isolated event
          in a vacuum. It took a lot of silence from those who "felt" protected till
          now, for the situation to have gotten this bad.+++

          This is no minor oversight. As "New York Post" columnist Rod Dreher put it,
          "The number of Christians killed this year alone by fanatic gunmen greatly
          exceeds the number of abortionists or gays murdered by
          right-wing haters."

          +++The number of Christians killed this year, by the U.S. directly, and by
          support of proxies, numbers in the thousands at least. The anti-christian -
          pro-profit actions of world fascism (U.S. supported New World Order) have
          killed hundreds of thousands, and maybe even millions of Christians in the
          last few years. For a reality check on the actual numbers of suffering
          Christian of this century http://www.celticrite.org/history/suffer.htm +++

          But don't count on the media to expose this fact. Why? Part of the answer is
          that our elites view Christians as
          oppressors--of gays, of women, of anyone who rejects Judeo-Christian
          morality. The idea that Christians themselves are oppressed seems to be of no
          real concern. Some may even privately think a little oppression for
          Christians is a good thing.

          +++ Why should this surprise you. Haven't the "great silent majority"
          remained quiet as young white people were systematically discriminated
          against (under an official policy of the Federal Government) in the form of
          "quotas, set asides, and race based lending by the SBA, and race based
          scholarships" etc. Once the premise was accepted, it is only the category
          that has changed. +++

          Even more ominously, our elites are actually contributing to the animus
          towards Christians. For example, we recently saw NBC's Katie Couric blaming
          James Dobson for the murder of homosexual Matthew Shepard because Dobson
          openly articulates the biblical teaching that homosexual acts are sinful.
          Movies like "Stigmata," with its lurid plot about a murderous Catholic
          conspiracy, also teaches that Christians are the enemy of humanity. And media
          mogul Ted Turner is famous for calling Christians "idiots" and "bozos," and
          blaming us for many of the world's problems.

          +++ These things represent only the beginning.+++

          Is it any wonder, then, that fanatics would shoot up a Baptist prayer
          meeting--or target Christian kids at
          Columbine and Paducah?

          +++ No, certainly not. But then again, how do we account for "Christian
          America's silence" while millions of Orthodox Christians suffered,
          brutalization, death and slavery? -
          http://www.celticrite.org/history/suffer.htm +++

          What can we do about it? What Christians have always done. The Church has
          historically fought for religious freedom, including the freedom of
          non-Christians.

          +++ It is true that for the most part what is properly "The Church" has been
          very tolerant of 'religions.' It is also true that for segments of
          Christendom that have become "simply" religion, that tolerance for other
          religions has been at times sorely lacking - with the exception of the
          "enlightenment" experiment in the U.S, the Franco-Latin Church historically
          showed NO tolerance. +++

          We know that if one group can be singled out without consequences, then none
          of us is safe.

          +++ If this is the premise, then none of us have been safe for the history
          of the Republic; such safety has been the privilege of the ruling elite and
          the illusion of the common people. Such safety has never been the right or
          privilege of underprivileged nor the minorities. Such safety did not exist
          for child laborers, nor the immigrant of the sweat shops, nor the common
          laborers who had to pay protection money to corrupt unions to gain a living
          wage from the profit barons. It was not the case for sixty-thousand young
          men and women who were called to war in Vietnam under false pretenses. It
          has not been the case of nuclear weapons workers sacrificed to the cold war,
          nor the case for those who dared to speak out, nor the case for those used in
          prison/medical expermentations and the CIA's drug experiments. In this
          country we actually have people not labeled insane, who are held in prison,
          AFTER having "paid their debt to society" having served their sentences, who
          have not been released because of their "potentialities!!!!" And the U.S.
          Supreme court upheld the state's right to so incarcerate!!!!! Did you know
          this? You are absolutely correct - "we know that if one group can be
          singled out" etc. +++

          In his classic, "The City of God," Augustine urged Christians to avail
          themselves of the protection offered by the law of the land.

          +++ Although it may be in some cases a common sense thing to avail oneself of
          the protection of the law, I seriously doubt the wisdom of it at this point
          for Christian people. Do you seriously want the armed soldiers of "this
          culture" as your door keepers? If you offer this idea seriously as a common
          "american" solution you obviously do not know the reality of the situation.
          +++

          Modern Christians should do the same. After all, that's what non-Christians
          do. For example, when fanatics began shooting abortionists and bombing
          clinics, the abortion industry demanded--and got--government protection. The
          FBI was sent to guard their gates, and laws were passed to keep even
          peaceful prolifers from picketing on their sidewalks.

          +++ You probably missed the information that came out about the number of
          people in uniform in the U.S. who are Satanists and Wiccans? The defense
          department estimated that upwards of 35% of the military population were one
          or the other. I can't picture you seriously choosing these as "doorkeepers."
          +++

          Well, our government--charged by God to uphold justice--should be equally
          concerned when it is Christians who are targeted.

          +++ It "should" have been from the beginning, but that "should" and the
          actual history are two very different things. +++

          The Wedgwood shootings have exposed a dreadful double-standard. It's time we
          lovingly educate our government--and our elites--to understood that this
          principle should protect the rights of those they disagree with as well as
          with those with whom they do agree.

          +++ What amount of education can change a heart? The situation is not a
          matter of education, but a matter of sin against which only repentance has
          any meaning. We have seen the effort to protect civil rights turned into a
          means of discrimination and suppression of minorities, and the
          non-represented. We saw the experiment to eradicate poverty increase poverty
          exponentially. We see the generation old war on drugs, baptize the nation in
          drugs. We see the kindhearted efforts to stop child abuse create an attack
          on the American family. We see the health establishment create new and
          deadlier strains of most every disease. We see the movement to protect
          freedom of speech (the PC movement) create the greatest threat to freedom of
          speech yet mounted. Do not take this short list of good intentions creating
          bad result as definitive. The definitive list would take a book to write.
          When Augustin's rationalism is offered as "Christian teaching" some
          foundational Christian understanding taught by the true Fathers of the Church
          is short circuited. We have seen the witness in this country like few
          examples in history of the "loving kindness of the wicked" creating cruelty.
          St Paul's statement about wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against
          principalities and powers etc. is metaphysical fact. So what did Blessed
          Augustine offer as a solution? A flesh and blood solution. Is your
          suggestion of the re-education of the ruling elite any better? +++

          Because if justice is meted out only to those currently in favor with the
          governing elite, none of us is truly safe.

          +++ Again, when in the history of this Republic has it been any different?
          The history speak for itself, the truth being, that few actually know the
          history, though they have learned the sanitized history/mythology of the text
          books. +++
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