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Re: To sufer or not to suffer

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  • ageofmappos
    ... George Orwell ... resemblance to the ... effort. ... accounts. ... suffering is ... many of ... fear of ... saw the ... love & suffering, while we live in
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 9, 2004
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      --- In hocna@yahoogroups.com, BahCal <bahcal@d...> wrote:
      > "How does a man assert power over another? By making him suffer. ..
      > This is the bitter redemptive process as seen by the Socialist
      George Orwell
      > It is nothing new to Western christianity but is alien to the Love of
      > Christ, which continues in Orthodoxy. It bears a striking
      resemblance to the
      > brutality and suffering portrayed in Mel Gibson's latest creative
      effort.
      >
      > Contrast this with the song from the Old Testament sung at the Akathist
      > service,
      > " The three Hebrew children in the furnace
      > Trampled on the flames with courage and great boldness;
      > They turned fire to dew and cried out with a great voice:
      > Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God,
      > Unto ages of ages."
      > And with the lack of descriptive suffering given in the 4 Gospel
      accounts.
      > Also the Joy with which the Christian Saints embraced persecution and
      > martyrdom.
      >
      > Suffering is apparent only to the observer. The experience of
      suffering is
      > overshadowed by the Peace of Christ. The extraordinary peace that
      many of
      > The Church's persecutors and torturers witnessed was a powerful enough
      > reality to inspire Faith and not fear. Masses were converted; Not by
      fear of
      > pain or a masochistic, "penitent" desire to suffer but because they
      saw the
      > Peace, Joy and Love of Christ.
      >
      >A good reminder of the whole:Orthodox viewpoint of Gods message of
      love & suffering, while we live in the western world mindset that
      takes much to the extreme one way or another as nothing is stable,
      Holy Orthodoxy including the whole of 2000 years of Tradition based in
      ultimate truth gives more than George Orwell, Mel Gibson, yet as a
      convert I can see how the extreme of some comes at a reaction to the
      instability. This was a good Orthodox balance.
      In Christ
      Xenos Mann
    • nikitanicholas
      -Good piece, but just to clear the air -- Orwell was not a socialist. He was an anarchist. Some people get the idea that he was a socialist because he fought
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 9, 2004
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        -Good piece, but just to clear the air -- Orwell was not a
        socialist. He was an anarchist. Some people get the idea that he
        was a socialist because he fought in the Spanish Civil War in the
        International Brigade which was socialist. If one reads "Homage to
        Catalonia" by the man himself he explains how the anarchists, who
        were small in numbers, were simply tossed in with the socialists
        because the government didn't really know what to do with them. When
        the Republicans (socialists) called for assistance from the USSR they
        the commies)immediately began a crusade to kill all the anarchists,
        which is the experience that gave good ol' Georgie the idea that you
        never really know who to trust (e.g. the leaders of the farm who
        preach the cause of the animals only to be indistinguishable from the
        oppressive farmers; and the members of the Inner Party in 1984, who
        talk all about revolution but have actually implemented a cruel
        slavery). Which has nothing to do with "Passion" does it? Sorry. I
        just happen to be a big fan of G.O. Your comparison of God to the
        Ingsoc is kind of scary. Ingsoc's description of power is "a boot in
        the face." It is disturbing to think that God put a boot in the face
        of Our Savior. Ingsoc meant it as something very mean, hateful and
        oppressive. Does the Church teach that God was trying to destroy
        His own Son cruelly? It is difficult to understand the Lord's
        suffering.
        Also, when you quote Orwell later in your message, I am not sure that
        God's intention is to beat us into a broken condition so that we are
        crushed. We should repent and turn to God, but I don't see the
        similarity between a political party that wishes to utterly destroy
        the human will, and God's desire to save us. By making such a
        comparison it seems God is incredibly cruel and takes some pleasure
        in our suffering. The Inner Party certainly enjoyed the destruction
        of man.
        You are right to mention that the Western churches hold somewhat to
        this idea, just look at Cotton Mathers "pamphlet", Sinners in the
        Hands of an Angry God. Thank you for pointing out that our Eastern
        view is of a much more loving God.

        -- In hocna@yahoogroups.com, BahCal <bahcal@d...> wrote:
        > "How does a man assert power over another? By making him suffer. ..
        > Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be
        sure that he
        > is obeying your will and not his own. ...Power is in inflicting
        pain and
        > humiliation."
        > Words from the book 1984 by George Orwell.
        >
        > Those who have seen Mel Gibson's film of The Passion may find these
        words
        > familiar.
        >
        > Who has power? God. Man must therefore suffer. The God-Man must
        suffer to
        > show that he is being obedient to the Father. He must suffer to pay
        for the
        > sins of mankind. Man must follow this example and suffer pain and
        > humiliation in life, or beyond if you follow the theories of
        Purgatory and
        > the Toll Houses.
        >
        > "Always we shall have the heretic here at our mercy, screaming with
        pain,
        > broken up, contemptible and in the end utterly penitent, saved from
        himself,
        > crawling to our feet of his own accord."
        >
        > This is the bitter redemptive process as seen by the Socialist
        George Orwell
        > It is nothing new to Western christianity but is alien to the Love
        of
        > Christ, which continues in Orthodoxy. It bears a striking
        resemblance to the
        > brutality and suffering portrayed in Mel Gibson's latest creative
        effort.
        >
        > Contrast this with the song from the Old Testament sung at the
        Akathist
        > service,
        > " The three Hebrew children in the furnace
        > Trampled on the flames with courage and great boldness;
        > They turned fire to dew and cried out with a great voice:
        > Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God,
        > Unto ages of ages."
        > And with the lack of descriptive suffering given in the 4 Gospel
        accounts.
        > Also the Joy with which the Christian Saints embraced persecution
        and
        > martyrdom.
        >
        > Suffering is apparent only to the observer. The experience of
        suffering is
        > overshadowed by the Peace of Christ. The extraordinary peace that
        many of
        > The Church's persecutors and torturers witnessed was a powerful
        enough
        > reality to inspire Faith and not fear. Masses were converted; Not
        by fear of
        > pain or a masochistic, "penitent" desire to suffer but because they
        saw the
        > Peace, Joy and Love of Christ.
        >
        > 21 years ago I was excitedly awaiting motherhood. I was not yet a
        convert to
        > Orthodoxy.Our first born son came into this world with an
        irreparable heart
        > defect. At 12 days old he reposed after being Baptized in The Lord.
        My
        > husband, an Orthodox Christian, had prayed for Christ to take His
        own, home.
        > I had prayed for a miracle of life. Both our prayers were answered!
        > As a nurse, death had been a cold void that I feared. At death our
        son shone
        > like the sun and smiled contentedly. I converted to the Orthodox
        Faith in
        > which I saw Life and Light.
        > Friends and family had seen the suffering of loosing a son. Amidst
        the
        > suffering I had found Peace , Joy , Light, Life, and Love. Our baby
        was our
        > gift from God.
        >
        > O Death, where is thy sting? O Grave, where is thy victory? Risen
        is Christ
        > and thou art overthrown.
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