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Re: [OriginsTalk] Dave B - good news, bad news...

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  • grant hallman
    ... it sound grant. Andrew, you re misunderstanding me. The above is not my idea of what the gospel is, it s what most Christian versions of the gospel, sermon
    Message 1 of 64 , May 1, 2004
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      At 01:45 PM 30-04-04 -0400, you wrote:
      >Grant had written:
      >Possibly Jeff is referring to the way it's actually preached. The "good
      >news" has devolved to a message that sounds more like "bad news / good news":
      >First the bad news: you are a horrible little worm, a blot on creation, set
      >up by God as born in sin and doomed to a wretched life followed by eternal
      >damnation and hellfire.
      >Then the good news: i can save u from all that. Just believe exactly what i
      >tell u, from which it follows u will act exactly as i tell u, and then and
      >only then, God will save u from the mess he created u into. But Do Not
      >Disobey! or you have violated the conditions, and it's straight back into
      >the fire for u.
      >Andrew replies:The gosple or good news is not quite as cynical as you make
      it sound grant.

      Andrew, you're misunderstanding me. The above is not my idea of what the
      gospel is, it's what most Christian versions of the gospel, sermon or
      proselytizing, /sound like/. It's wrong, and a distortion of the real
      gospel, which sounds a lot more like "God loves you", and "your sins are
      forgiven", and "I am here so you can live abundantly".

      > God created Adam and Eve as a perfect creation. Similarly the animals
      were created perfectly and there was no sin and no death. Adam and Eve
      chose to rebel agains God. Tha rebellious attitude reflects the natrue
      that you and I and all of thier descendants have.
      >The creator simply says that there is no place in eternity for those that
      are in rebellion (sinful state) with Him. That is our "bad news".
      >the good news as revealed in the Bible is in Gods son, Jesus Christ.
      Because of His sacrficial suffereing at the cross at the hands of His
      father, the penalty for out guilt was paid for and because of the perfectly
      righteous life He led that too is transferred to our account as goodness or
      righteousness. This "get out of Jail free card" is available to anyone
      atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew etc as long as they place their trust in Christ
      and repent or change their ways.

      I know the spiel, Andrew. I just think it's not very close to what the God
      of the Bible actually said. That's why i ask pointed questions when u
      repeat this stuff - questions like "where does the Bible say that".
      Questions you seem to have a great deal of difficulty answering, with
      simple, direct, Bible-based answers.

      >Either Jesus is who He said He was and the Bible is true and accurate or
      Jesus is a nut case and we Christians are the Biggest fools.

      Yet a 3rd possibility is that Andrew and 95% of Conservative Christianity
      is deeply stuck in false beliefs - traditional human moralism which they
      are mistaking for God's Word, in large part in defiance of the simple
      message of the Bible, and if not in outright contradiction, then making
      extremely twisty and torturous interpretations. E.g: turning "the two Marys
      came to the tomb on Sunday" into "Move all the OT Sabbath laws from
      Saturday to Sunday - no, wait, just /selected/ Sabbath laws". Bah!

      > Each of us including grant and Jeff are betting our eternal destiny on
      the validity and veracity of the Bible. Unfortunately the truth will not
      be revealed to you until after your death and then it is too late. andrew

      My reply to the possibility u mention is this: I know whom i have believed
      - in the sense of 2 Timothy 1:12. That's enough for me. What will also be
      revealed to all, is how substituting traditional human morality for God's
      Word, has a negative effect on the faith of so many. I do not envy those
      who practice it.

      cheers - grant

      - - - - - -

      Outstanding questions for Andrew:

      Andrew 1) Do u keep Saturday holy and do no work, in accordance with
      Commandment 4 (Ex.20:8) ? If not, why not? And if u want to cite Matt 28:1,
      what does it have to do with moving the Sabbath laws to Sunday?

      (Yes, i know - u quoted Matt.28:1. What remains is to show its smallest
      relevance to the question of moving some but not all of the Sabbath laws to

      Andrew 2) Do u possess any "graven images", such as currency bills, family
      photographs, etc. as forbidden by Commandment 2 (Ex.20:4) ?

      (I know, u said "yes, and so does Jesus". Jesus is not recorded in the NT
      with coins, except the one time he used one as an example. Is that your
      final answer?)

      Andrew 3) Where in scripture are the OT laws divided into the 3 categories
      u postulated (civil, sacrificial and moral), back in post #6772?

      (You said "Later". When, approximately?)

      Andrew 4) How does one decide which laws fall into which category, if the
      categories actually exist in scripture? This is crucial, because u also
      claim only "moral" laws still apply. Are the 2nd and 4th commandments,
      moral laws?

      (still waiting)

      Andrew 5) Do u place State and Federal law above ancient Hebrew "Civil
      Law" (your term) as given in the OT?

      (You said "yes" when u said US laws replace ancient Hebrew "civil" laws,
      and "no" when asked directly, e.g. about abortions. Which is it? Do u
      decide on a case-by-case basis?)
    • Dave Oldridge
      ... ... can ... this same ... gita or ... an ... real ... all too ... authority. ... think ... GITA ... escape it ... disagree with the above
      Message 64 of 64 , Jul 1, 2004
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        On 30 Jun 2004 at 19:05, atfsoccer@... wrote:

        > In a message dated 6/21/2004 7:14:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dave Oldridge <doldridg@...> writes:
        > >On 21 Jun 2004 at 7:51, Rupee wrote:
        > >
        > >> --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Dave Oldridge
        > > > While it is true that only by the power of the Holy Spirit
        > > > scripture really be interpreted, I will tell you now that
        this same
        > > > power will help you interpret the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad-
        gita or
        > > > any other holy writing in addition to the Bible. Moreover,
        > > > awful lot of the people claiming to have this gift show no
        > > > sign of it, but instead show, especially to a true mystic,
        all too
        > > > many of the signs of someone trying to fake spiritual
        > >
        > >
        > > rupee
        > > andrew presumes too much about non christians. he seems to
        > > their faith is a fake, without proving it so.
        > > in the same vein is it true that a christian cant accept the
        > > when it says 'death is the uktimate truth and a mortal cant
        escape it'
        > Andrew comments: I would argue that any true christians would
        disagree with the above statements. The Holy Spirit of God is
        indeed necessary for the illumination of scripture. God revealed
        his plan to mankind by inspiration of the 40 writers of the Bible
        and His Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding. Any other

        The Bible does not reference itself. It is not self-defining but
        is defined in a living tradition. Those who preach that it is an
        infallible oracle have extracted a VERSION of it from the tradition
        and made off with it in their own direction.

        religion that is not Christ centered is merely manmade and that
        religion continues to serve the prince of this world ie Satan.

        Religions MOSTLY serve the perceived personal needs of those who
        promulgate and manage them. That may or may not serve Satan's ends
        but does so probably more often than not. This is true whether or
        not the "religion" in question describes itself as Christian.

        Harsh words but true if you believe in the God of the Bible and
        if you believe in Christ. In fact Christ tells us this truth in
        John 8:42. Those that argue we are all on different roads going to
        the same place remain blinded to the truth.

        Jesus tells us in John 8:42 that God sent Him. He does not tell us
        that we need to follow the latter-day doctrines of Ken Ham or Kent
        Hovind in order to be saved.

        > Again, I am not out to "pick" Hindus, buddhists or muslims/ They
        are the ones that Christians love and want to see saved. The only
        way to do that is to start by declaring the truth of the Bible
        declared by God.

        The trouble with this attitude is that, all too often, it simply
        becomes an excuse for blind prejudice and causes people to ignore
        Paul's advice:

        1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

        Dave Oldridge
        ICQ 1800667
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