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Re: RUFFLED FEATHERS AND DINOS

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  • David
    ... David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic. The human prints are no different ... David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 29 9:10 AM
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      --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell Baker" <lbaker70@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is a lie which I can say that I have verified personally. There is a
      > slab of Jurassic material in Utah, Called Red Reef which I took pictures of
      > dino tracks and human footprints together.

      David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic.

      The human prints are no different
      > than what Leakey found in Africa. Also, there are the reliefs a
      > Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta Prohm Temple in Cambodia which you
      > can watch on You Tube. This Stegosaur could not have been carved by anyone
      > other than someone that had seen one. Now, 1200 years ago I do not think
      > they were finding dino bones. It was not until recently that we even knew
      > they had fins in that shape on their backs. No archeologists around
      > either to put bones together. So, modern day man has seen Dino's, no matter
      > what you want to believe.

      David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs any time. They are avian dinosaurs. There is no credible scientific evidence that humans and non avian dinosaurs ever coexisted.

      What this does mean that the people who have
      > perpetrated the lie that man did not live with the dinosaurs have an agenda.

      David Williams: To prove that people did not coexist with non avian dinosaurs is a lie, you need to provide credible scientific evidence.

      > That is that we have been around millions of years and that proves there is
      > no God. We are a god unto ourselves. We have no one to answer to. What is
      > the first thing a Scientist assumes, that nothing we can verify came into
      > being by an act of God. I ask you the question, have you ever read the
      > book, the 7 Tipping points that saved the world? You can read for yourself

      > how God has only intervened enough to make sure we have Freedom to Choose,
      > one of the Hallmarks of Christianity. God gave angels choice and He gives
      > you choice to believe what you want. The only point of the Iraq and Iranian
      > wars is that the Freedom we take for granted is really what is being fought
      > for. Next time you choose if you want to drink Coke or Pepsi, remember, you
      > got that freedom of choice by those who gave their lives to preserve it.
      > So, you also have the choice to believe that dinos were never with man, when
      > in fact is, they were.
      >

      David Williams: You can believe anything you would like too. I remain unconvinced by the evidence you present.

      > If you can get a hold of a copy of the writings of Saint John of
      > Damascus, you can read his dissertation about Dinosaurs. He describes that
      > they were slow moving lizards, that laid eggs and should not be feared by
      > the people of his time. (500 AD). He even discribes of how, during the Wars
      > of Rome against Carthage that a Roman commander had to ask his superior to
      > slay a dragon that had come up against the ramparts in Carthage (About 3
      > BC). The skinned body was sent to the Senate of Rome and measured about what
      > we would call 80 meters.
      >

      David Williams: Legends are not scientific evidence.

      >
      > The reason Evolution can even prosper in this time of Man is that it is
      > supported by the Government (Who pays for the Universities?)

      David Williams: Many rational people including Christians continur to accept evolution.


      which instead
      > of the Bible telling you what a human life is worth, the Government does.
      > The Government of China has authorized the killing of more baby girls than
      > all the women born in the US. We would not even have a Social Security
      > problem if all the babies that were aborted had been just simply adopted in
      > the US.

      David Williams: I read an article that said veterinarians are adept at embryo transfer. Religious women can adopt embryos and carry them to term themselves.


      Are you willing to stand with God and say that murder is murder? Or
      > just an inconvenient tissue mass? Evolution is where these ideas come from.
      > With Evolution, Life has no worth.

      David Williams: How does a mythology book validate life's worth? Many Christians supported the latest Iraq war in which many innocent civilians were killed. As you say, murder is murder.



      It is what gave the permission for all
      > the late term abortions that were carried out against the Jews in WWII.
      > Murder is murder, no matter what the age of the fetus. That is one reason
      > why I am against the teaching of Evolution. It is a religion, not a fact.
      >
      > Lowell Baker

      David Williams: Do you have any credible scientific evidence that your religion is a fact?


      >
      > From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of David
      > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:28 PM
      > To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: RUFFLED FEATHERS.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OriginsTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@> wrote:
      > >
      > > David Williams: Carbon 14 dating is only god for up to 60,000 years. There
      > > have been people for more than 60,000 years yet human and dinosaur remains
      > > are not found together. There are no dinosaur fossils with stone spear
      > > points embedded in them. No dinosaur bones are found with large mammal
      > > bones such as mammoth bones.
      > >
      > > Charles P: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html Your comments are a
      > > distraction from the central issue.
      >
      > David Williams: You are trying to make a case for dinosaur fossils thousands
      > of years old, and I was trying to show that it is an absurd claim. If
      > dinosaur fossils were thousands of years old, some of them would be found
      > with humans and large mammals. None are. Real scientists are not trying to
      > hide anything but some people are trying to make bogus claims that fit their
      > theology.
      >
      > I hope that your comments do not mean
      > > that you believe that it is OK for science writers to deceive science
      > > students and the general public. Why would Dr. Mary Schweitzer and other
      > > faithful to the religion of the old Theory of Evolution not want to allow
      > > carbon-14 dating of the dinosaur bones in their possession?
      >
      > Why would they
      > > not want to share the truth about the possibility that some dinosaurs are
      > > younger than their hypothetical chicken descendants?
      >
      > David Williams: There is no possibility.
      >
      > Would it not be a
      > > good idea for all science writers to allow outsiders to verify the
      > > conclusions of the old Theory of Evolution?
      > >
      >
      > David Williams: They can read good science books.
      >
      > > Charles P: Why is it so easy for you to not to encourage scrutiny of the
      > > evidence by outsiders?
      >
      > David Williams: They can scrutinize all they want. I scrutinized the absurd
      > claim that dinosaur bones are thousands of years.
      >
      > The truth is simple. All Dr. Mary Schweitzer and
      > > her supporters need to do is to allow carbon-14 dating of the dinosaur
      > > bones in their possession.
      > >
      > > David Williams: Many skeptics are not familiar with molecular science.
      > >
      > > Charles P: I will gladly share with you and anyone else here on Origins
      > > Talk what I have learned about molecular science. The truth is simple.
      > > All evidence should be open to scrutiny by outsiders. Deception should
      > > not exist in scientific writings about the origin and diversity of life.
      > >
      > > David Williams: People can argue about anything they want, but if they
      > > don't know what they are talking about, then knowledgeable people will not
      > > take their conclusions seriously.
      > >
      > > Charles P: I agree with you, David. Please join the rest of us here on
      > > Origins Talk who are knowledgeable enough about biology as an information
      > > science to recognize deception by some science writers. They are the ones
      > > who attempt to distract us from the central issues about the origin and
      > > diversity of life.
      > >
      >
      > David Williams: You are trying to makes cases for many amazing creationist
      > claims that most rational scientifically educated people will never accept.
      > They see right through the disinformation that creationists put out.
      >
      > > ***********************************************
      > >
      > > D R Lindberg: Of course some scientists might be engaging in deception.
      > > They're as human as anyone else. But it's a pretty dangerous game, because
      > > with their competitors continually looking over their shoulders and
      > > checking their work, it's very unlikely that they would not be found out
      > > sooner or later.
      > >
      > > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBZ8o-lmAsg I hope that your
      > > comments mean that you agree with my statements.
      > >
      > > 1 I will assume that you are the innocent victim of Leakey and Johanson
      > > whose purpose is to deceive science students and the general public.
      > >
      > > 2 No one has presented empirical and verifiable evidence to disprove my
      > > statement: The Laetoli footprints were not make by any Australopithecus
      > > species. Only humans can make human-like footprints. Anyone on Origins
      > > Talk can verify for themselves what I am saying.
      > >
      > > D R Lindberg: What is super-ironic here is the many examples of deceptions
      > > by anti-science "experts" (Ian Juby, Do-fraud Jones, Steven Austin, etc.)
      > > that Charles is continuously trotting out. Why has he refused to discuss
      > their
      > > deceptions when I have tried to point them out? And when have any of them
      > > have suffered any consequences at all for their deceptions? It is hard to
      > > avoid the conclusion that it is these very deceptions that they are being
      > > rewarded for. It's difficult to discuss "discover the truth about the
      > > origin and diversity of life" with people who are so quick to throw
      > > accusations around, but refuse to be critical of their own prejudices or
      > > behaviour.
      > >
      > > Charles P: All that I remember is that you have only expressed negative
      > > opinions, not empirical and verifiable evidence. It is OK to have a
      > > negative opinion of other science writers. I can respect that. The truth
      > > is simple. First, you must do your homework and study what Ian Juby,
      > > Do-While Jones, Steven Austin, etc. have presented as evidence for the
      > > origin and diversity of life. Second, you must clearly show us how we can
      > > verify whether or not there is any deception by these science writers.
      > >
      > > Charles P: Let the record show that I reject the ideas of anyone who is
      > > attempting to deceive science students or the general public. The truth is
      > > simple and will always stand up to scrutiny by outsiders.
      > >
      >
      > > Charles P: Long narratives that distract our attention from the central
      > > issues are no substitute for empirical and verifiable evidence that is
      > open
      > > to scrutiny by outsiders. Please join the rest of us here on Origins Talk
      > > to discover the truth about the origin and diversity of life.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > David Williams: Creationist disinformation is not empirical and verifiable
      > evidence.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Charles Palm
      Lowell Baker: This is a lie which I can say that I have verified personally. 1 There is a slab of Jurassic material in Utah, Called Red Reef which I took
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 29 4:06 PM
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        Lowell Baker: This is a lie which I can say that I have verified
        personally.

        1 There is a slab of Jurassic material in Utah, Called Red Reef which I
        took pictures of dino tracks and human footprints together. The human
        prints are no different than what Leakey found in Africa.

        Charles P: Please share with us some pictures or videos showing human
        footprints together with dinosaur tracks. The truth is simple and can be
        verified by outsiders.

        Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBZ8o-lmAsg Deception is not
        simple and cannot be verified by outsiders. It does not take an expert on
        human footprints to recognize that nowhere in this video did Leakey nor
        Johanson show us actual Australopithecus fossil feet that look like human
        feet. The video lasts 1:28:06. The truth is simple. Anyone who believes
        that I am mistaken should show us my mistakes, if any, showing us the time
        on the video that contradicts what I am saying. I try to learn from my
        mistakes.

        Charles P: The deception on the part of Leakey and Johanson is based upon
        their religious faith in the old Theory of Evolution which teaches that the
        human footprints in Laetoli could not possibly be human footprints because
        humans had not yet evolved 3.6 million years ago. This circular reasoning
        should never be part of science. It makes more sense to me to question the
        methods used to date the footprints. However, *deep time* is another part
        of the old Theory of Evolution that the faithful refuse to consider as
        possibly incorrect.

        2 Also, there are the reliefs a Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta
        Prohm Temple in Cambodia which you can watch on You Tube. This Stegosaur
        could not have been carved by anyone other than someone that had seen one.
        Now, 1200 years ago I do not think they were finding dino bones. It was not
        until recently that we even knew they had fins in that shape on their
        backs. No archeologists around either to put bones together. So, modern day
        man has seen Dino's, no matter what you want to believe. What this does
        mean that the people who have perpetrated the lie that man did not live
        with the dinosaurs have an agenda.

        Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY Time 0:57 to 6:17.
        This is evidence that is verifiable by outsiders to the truth. One
        possible interpretation of the evidence is that assumptions about *deep
        time* are incorrect. The truth is simple. If the carving is something
        else than a Stegosaurus, then the faithful to the old Theory of Evolution
        should present to us here on Origins Talk their empirical and verifiable
        evidence that contradicts the conclusions of the person who made this video.

        D R Lindberg: If you examine that image, and compare it with an actual
        picture of a stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same - snout is
        different, the tail is different, the plates are different. Plus, it was a
        North American animal. No trace of it has ever been found in South East
        Asia. Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal
        with some
        kind of halo-like design behind it.

        Charles P: I respect your narratives, D R Lindberg, and it is OK to have
        different interpretations of the evidence. However, you have only
        expressed a narrative of your opinions, not empirical and verifiable
        evidence.

        David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic.

        Charles P: Where is your empirical and verifiable evidence for us
        outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution?

        David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs any time. They are
        avian dinosaurs. There is no credible scientific evidence that humans and
        non avian dinosaurs ever coexisted.

        Charles P: Just because Jack Horner says so does not make it so. Here is
        an update on how some scientists are willing to continue to deceive
        outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution because of their hatred toward
        creationists.

        ***********************************************

        John Michael Fischer: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html Charles, You
        may share it if you like. Discussion of Carbon-14 dating of dinosaur bones
        with defenders of evolution theory reveals their scientific charade. When
        they hear the report of dates from 22,000 to 39,000 years before
        present in every well-preserved dinosaur skeleton tested using sensitive
        AMS, they always say there cannot be any C-14 left in 65+ million year old
        bones. When you suggest they try it themselves with certified bones in
        museum or university collections, they insist it would be a waste of time.
        If you offer to pay for everything, they end the conversation. When you
        try to publish the test results, they prevent it.

        John Michael Fischer: They fully realize the consequences to the
        current paradigm of Earth history that would ensue if the public became
        aware of this scientific data. They will use any tactic to stop its
        dissemination, just as they annihilate any attempt to teach flaws in
        evolution theory in school.

        John Michael Fischer: I respect your tenacity in doing battle in the
        forums. I quickly lose interest in butting heads with scientific
        bigots, and have opted instead to lay out the relevant facts at
        www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html for anyone to see at their leisure.
        It has been enormously successful in recent years.

        John Michael Fischer: In this age of information, I am confident that the
        Pandora's box that Schweitzer opened with her finding of soft tissue will
        unleash its full effect with the Carbon-14 data. Many of us are working
        towards that day.

        ***********************************************

        Charles P: The truth is simple and can be verified by outsiders to the
        truth. Why would anyone continue to agree with Jack Horner and Mary
        Schweitzer to hide scientific evidence from verification by outsiders? Why
        would anyone here on Origins Talk want to be part of a deception based
        solely on their faith in the old Theory of Evolution? Deception in the
        form of long narratives is not simple and cannot be verified by outsiders.
        Deception is only used to distract our attention from the central issues.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lowell Baker
        Dinosaur was not used until recently. Dragon was the term used by St John of Damascus. Interesting that they laid eggs. Lowell From:
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 29 6:36 PM
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          Dinosaur was not used until recently. Dragon was the term used by St John
          of Damascus. Interesting that they laid eggs. Lowell



          From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of D R Lindberg
          Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:58 AM
          To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: RUFFLED FEATHERS AND DINOS






          --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OriginsTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          "Lowell Baker" <lbaker70@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is a lie which I can say that I have verified personally. There
          is a
          > slab of Jurassic material in Utah, Called Red Reef which I took
          pictures of
          > dino tracks and human footprints together. The human prints are no
          different
          > than what Leakey found in Africa.

          Interesting!

          Could you post your pictures (under Files or Photos, to the upper right
          of your screen), so we can compare them?

          Thank you!!

          > Also, there are the reliefs a
          > Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta Prohm Temple in Cambodia which
          you
          > can watch on You Tube. This Stegosaur could not have been carved by
          anyone
          > other than someone that had seen one. Now, 1200 years ago I do not
          think
          > they were finding dino bones. It was not until recently that we even
          knew
          > they had fins in that shape on their backs.

          If you examine that image, and compare it with an actual picture of a
          stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same - snout is
          different, the tail is different, the plates are different.

          Plus, it was a North American animal. No trace of it has ever been found
          in South East Asia.

          Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal with
          some kind of halo-like design behind it.

          [irrelevant rant snipped]

          . . . . .
          >
          > If you can get a hold of a copy of the writings of Saint John of
          > Damascus, you can read his dissertation about Dinosaurs. He describes
          that
          > they were slow moving lizards, that laid eggs and should not be feared
          by
          > the people of his time. (500 AD).

          Did he use the word "dinosaur," or are you choosing to interpret his
          writings to suit your argument?

          . . . . .
          >
          >
          > The reason Evolution can even prosper in this time of Man is that it
          is
          > supported by the Government (Who pays for the Universities?) which
          instead
          > of the Bible telling you what a human life is worth, the Government
          does.
          > The Government of China has authorized the killing of more baby girls
          than
          > all the women born in the US. We would not even have a Social Security
          > problem if all the babies that were aborted had been just simply
          adopted in
          > the US. Are you willing to stand with God and say that murder is
          murder? Or
          > just an inconvenient tissue mass? Evolution is where these ideas come
          from.
          > With Evolution, Life has no worth. It is what gave the permission for
          all
          > the late term abortions that were carried out against the Jews in
          WWII.
          > Murder is murder, no matter what the age of the fetus. That is one
          reason
          > why I am against the teaching of Evolution. It is a religion, not a
          fact.

          If you are going to rant against evolution, might I suggest that you
          could do so more effectively if you learned what it is. (Hint: it is
          irrelevant to most if not all of the things you are ranting against).
          Your complaints make as much sense as someone saying that Pat Robertson
          caused Hurricane Katrina.

          Cheers!

          "None of us can boast about the morality of our ancestors. The records
          do not show that Adam and Eve were married." -- Ed Howe

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • D R Lindberg
          ... John ... How do you know that they were the same thing? Dinosaurs don t look much like dragons to me. None of that fire-breathing stuff. Some dinosaurs
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 30 10:02 AM
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            --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell Baker" <lbaker70@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dinosaur was not used until recently. Dragon was the term used by St
            John
            > of Damascus. Interesting that they laid eggs. Lowell

            How do you know that they were the same thing? Dinosaurs don't look much
            like dragons to me. None of that fire-breathing stuff. Some dinosaurs
            don't lay eggs.

            Here is how Wikipedia describes dragons:
            "Dragons are usually shown in modern times with a body like a huge
            lizard, or a snake with two pairs of lizard-type legs, and able to emit
            fire from their mouths. The European dragon
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon> has bat-like wings
            growing from its back. A dragon-like creature with wings but only a
            single pair of legs is known as a wyvern
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern> ."
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
            Can you name one kind of dinosaur that meets this description? According
            to this description, dragons weren't even quadrupeds.

            Why did you ignore my other questions (repeated below)? Did you post
            those photos? I'm all keen to hear your ideas, and I can't understand
            them if you don't answer my questions.

            Thanks!

            Cheers!






            "Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons
            exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." ~ g.k.
            chesterton


            >
            >
            >
            > From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com]
            On
            > Behalf Of D R Lindberg
            > Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:58 AM
            > To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: RUFFLED FEATHERS AND DINOS
            >

            > --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:OriginsTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > "Lowell Baker" lbaker70@ wrote:
            > >
            > > This is a lie which I can say that I have verified personally. There
            > is a
            > > slab of Jurassic material in Utah, Called Red Reef which I took
            > pictures of
            > > dino tracks and human footprints together. The human prints are no
            > different
            > > than what Leakey found in Africa.
            >
            > Interesting!
            >
            > Could you post your pictures (under Files or Photos, to the upper
            right
            > of your screen), so we can compare them?
            >
            > Thank you!!
            >
            > > Also, there are the reliefs a
            > > Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta Prohm Temple in Cambodia
            which
            > you
            > > can watch on You Tube. This Stegosaur could not have been carved by
            > anyone
            > > other than someone that had seen one. Now, 1200 years ago I do not
            > think
            > > they were finding dino bones. It was not until recently that we even
            > knew
            > > they had fins in that shape on their backs.
            >
            > If you examine that image, and compare it with an actual picture of a
            > stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same - snout is
            > different, the tail is different, the plates are different.
            >
            > Plus, it was a North American animal. No trace of it has ever been
            found
            > in South East Asia.
            >
            > Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal with
            > some kind of halo-like design behind it.
            >
            > [irrelevant rant snipped]
            >
            > . . . . .
            > >
            > > If you can get a hold of a copy of the writings of Saint John of
            > > Damascus, you can read his dissertation about Dinosaurs. He
            describes
            > that
            > > they were slow moving lizards, that laid eggs and should not be
            feared
            > by
            > > the people of his time. (500 AD).
            >
            > Did he use the word "dinosaur," or are you choosing to interpret his
            > writings to suit your argument?
            >
            > . . . . .
            > >
            > >
            > > The reason Evolution can even prosper in this time of Man is that it
            > is
            > > supported by the Government (Who pays for the Universities?) which
            > instead
            > > of the Bible telling you what a human life is worth, the Government
            > does.
            > > The Government of China has authorized the killing of more baby
            girls
            > than
            > > all the women born in the US. We would not even have a Social
            Security
            > > problem if all the babies that were aborted had been just simply
            > adopted in
            > > the US. Are you willing to stand with God and say that murder is
            > murder? Or
            > > just an inconvenient tissue mass? Evolution is where these ideas
            come
            > from.
            > > With Evolution, Life has no worth. It is what gave the permission
            for
            > all
            > > the late term abortions that were carried out against the Jews in
            > WWII.
            > > Murder is murder, no matter what the age of the fetus. That is one
            > reason
            > > why I am against the teaching of Evolution. It is a religion, not a
            > fact.
            >
            > If you are going to rant against evolution, might I suggest that you
            > could do so more effectively if you learned what it is. (Hint: it is
            > irrelevant to most if not all of the things you are ranting against).
            > Your complaints make as much sense as someone saying that Pat
            Robertson
            > caused Hurricane Katrina.
            >
            > Cheers!
            >
            > "None of us can boast about the morality of our ancestors. The records
            > do not show that Adam and Eve were married." -- Ed Howe
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David
            ... David Williams: The Jurassic was many millions of years ago. There were no large mammals then, much less humans. You go on about empirical and
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 30 12:22 PM
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              --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
              >
              > Lowell Baker: This is a lie which I can say that I have verified
              > personally.
              >
              > 1 There is a slab of Jurassic material in Utah, Called Red Reef which I
              > took pictures of dino tracks and human footprints together. The human
              > prints are no different than what Leakey found in Africa.
              >
              > Charles P: Please share with us some pictures or videos showing human
              > footprints together with dinosaur tracks. The truth is simple and can be
              > verified by outsiders.
              >
              > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBZ8o-lmAsg Deception is not
              > simple and cannot be verified by outsiders. It does not take an expert on
              > human footprints to recognize that nowhere in this video did Leakey nor
              > Johanson show us actual Australopithecus fossil feet that look like human
              > feet. The video lasts 1:28:06. The truth is simple. Anyone who believes
              > that I am mistaken should show us my mistakes, if any, showing us the time
              > on the video that contradicts what I am saying. I try to learn from my
              > mistakes.
              >
              > Charles P: The deception on the part of Leakey and Johanson is based upon
              > their religious faith in the old Theory of Evolution which teaches that the
              > human footprints in Laetoli could not possibly be human footprints because
              > humans had not yet evolved 3.6 million years ago. This circular reasoning
              > should never be part of science. It makes more sense to me to question the
              > methods used to date the footprints. However, *deep time* is another part
              > of the old Theory of Evolution that the faithful refuse to consider as
              > possibly incorrect.
              >
              > 2 Also, there are the reliefs a Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta
              > Prohm Temple in Cambodia which you can watch on You Tube. This Stegosaur
              > could not have been carved by anyone other than someone that had seen one.
              > Now, 1200 years ago I do not think they were finding dino bones. It was not
              > until recently that we even knew they had fins in that shape on their
              > backs. No archeologists around either to put bones together. So, modern day
              > man has seen Dino's, no matter what you want to believe. What this does
              > mean that the people who have perpetrated the lie that man did not live
              > with the dinosaurs have an agenda.
              >
              > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY Time 0:57 to 6:17.
              > This is evidence that is verifiable by outsiders to the truth. One
              > possible interpretation of the evidence is that assumptions about *deep
              > time* are incorrect. The truth is simple. If the carving is something
              > else than a Stegosaurus, then the faithful to the old Theory of Evolution
              > should present to us here on Origins Talk their empirical and verifiable
              > evidence that contradicts the conclusions of the person who made this video.
              >
              > D R Lindberg: If you examine that image, and compare it with an actual
              > picture of a stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same - snout is
              > different, the tail is different, the plates are different. Plus, it was a
              > North American animal. No trace of it has ever been found in South East
              > Asia. Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal
              > with some
              > kind of halo-like design behind it.
              >
              > Charles P: I respect your narratives, D R Lindberg, and it is OK to have
              > different interpretations of the evidence. However, you have only
              > expressed a narrative of your opinions, not empirical and verifiable
              > evidence.
              >
              > David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic.
              >
              > Charles P: Where is your empirical and verifiable evidence for us
              > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution?
              >

              David Williams: The Jurassic was many millions of years ago. There were no large mammals then, much less humans. You go on about empirical and verifiable evidence when you rarely have any.


              > David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs any time. They are
              > avian dinosaurs. There is no credible scientific evidence that humans and
              > non avian dinosaurs ever coexisted.
              >
              > Charles P: Just because Jack Horner says so does not make it so. Here is
              > an update on how some scientists are willing to continue to deceive
              > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution because of their hatred toward
              > creationists.
              >

              David Williams: Jack Horner knows more about what he is talking about than you do. Real scientists rarely get away with deception. You can fool yourself with creationist misinformation but you will never fool me.

              http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html

              David Williams: Archeopteryx was one of the early avian dinosaurs. It still had teeth and a dinosaur tail.

              http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/13/uknews.taxonomy

              David Williams: Protein from T. Rex has similarities to chicken protein.


              > ***********************************************
              >
              > John Michael Fischer: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html Charles, You
              > may share it if you like. Discussion of Carbon-14 dating of dinosaur bones
              > with defenders of evolution theory reveals their scientific charade. When
              > they hear the report of dates from 22,000 to 39,000 years before
              > present in every well-preserved dinosaur skeleton tested using sensitive
              > AMS, they always say there cannot be any C-14 left in 65+ million year old
              > bones. When you suggest they try it themselves with certified bones in
              > museum or university collections, they insist it would be a waste of time.
              > If you offer to pay for everything, they end the conversation. When you
              > try to publish the test results, they prevent it.
              >
              > John Michael Fischer: They fully realize the consequences to the
              > current paradigm of Earth history that would ensue if the public became
              > aware of this scientific data.

              David Williams: He is jumping to creationist conclusions. Carbon 14 can be formed from ground radiation, giving a false age reading. That is why coal and diamonds sometimes have Carbon 14. If non avian dinosaurs actually lived in the last few thousand years, their remains would be found with large mammals such as mammoths and horses and even humans. Dinosaur skeletons are never found with human artifacts such as stone spear points embedded in them.


              They will use any tactic to stop its
              > dissemination, just as they annihilate any attempt to teach flaws in
              > evolution theory in school.
              >
              > John Michael Fischer: I respect your tenacity in doing battle in the
              > forums. I quickly lose interest in butting heads with scientific
              > bigots,


              David Williams: He uses this ad hominim because rational scientifically educated people will rarely fall for his brand of creationism.

              and have opted instead to lay out the relevant facts at
              > www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html for anyone to see at their leisure.
              > It has been enormously successful in recent years.
              >
              > John Michael Fischer: In this age of information, I am confident that the
              > Pandora's box that Schweitzer opened with her finding of soft tissue will
              > unleash its full effect with the Carbon-14 data. Many of us are working
              > towards that day.
              >

              David Williams: Keep on dreaming.



              > ***********************************************
              >
              > Charles P: The truth is simple and can be verified by outsiders to the
              > truth. Why would anyone continue to agree with Jack Horner and Mary
              > Schweitzer to hide scientific evidence from verification by outsiders? Why
              > would anyone here on Origins Talk want to be part of a deception based
              > solely on their faith in the old Theory of Evolution? Deception in the
              > form of long narratives is not simple and cannot be verified by outsiders.
              > Deception is only used to distract our attention from the central issues.
              >

              David Williams: Rational, scientifically educated people will rarely fall for your arguments because they will not see that they are empirical and verifiable. Outsiders can publish anything they would like, and rational people are free to reject conclusions that they can verify are not rational or scientific.
            • D R Lindberg
              ... . . . . . ... not ... expert on ... nor ... human ... believes ... time ... my ... Did you look at the pictures I sent you? Why do you ignore the evidence?
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 31 5:08 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...>
                wrote:
                >
                . . . . .
                >
                > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBZ8o-lmAsg Deception is
                not
                > simple and cannot be verified by outsiders. It does not take an
                expert on
                > human footprints to recognize that nowhere in this video did Leakey
                nor
                > Johanson show us actual Australopithecus fossil feet that look like
                human
                > feet. The video lasts 1:28:06. The truth is simple. Anyone who
                believes
                > that I am mistaken should show us my mistakes, if any, showing us the
                time
                > on the video that contradicts what I am saying. I try to learn from
                my
                > mistakes.

                Did you look at the pictures I sent you? Why do you ignore the evidence?


                >
                > Charles P: The deception on the part of Leakey and Johanson is based
                upon
                > their religious faith in the old Theory of Evolution which teaches
                that the
                > human footprints in Laetoli could not possibly be human footprints
                because
                > humans had not yet evolved 3.6 million years ago. This circular
                reasoning
                > should never be part of science. It makes more sense to me to
                question the
                > methods used to date the footprints. However, *deep time* is another
                part
                > of the old Theory of Evolution that the faithful refuse to consider as
                > possibly incorrect.

                What you call "*deep time*" is not part of the theory of evolution, old
                or new. It is a deduction from geological observations made long before
                Darwin was even born, and that continue to be made. You live in or near
                the mountains. Go take a look at them. Better yet, read a book or two or
                take a class on geology before you go.

                >
                > 2 Also, there are the reliefs a Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old
                Ta
                > Prohm Temple in Cambodia which you can watch on You Tube. This
                Stegosaur
                > could not have been carved by anyone other than someone that had seen
                one.
                > Now, 1200 years ago I do not think they were finding dino bones. It
                was not
                > until recently that we even knew they had fins in that shape on their
                > backs. No archeologists around either to put bones together. So,
                modern day
                > man has seen Dino's, no matter what you want to believe. What this
                does
                > mean that the people who have perpetrated the lie that man did not
                live
                > with the dinosaurs have an agenda.

                What agenda would that be that involves many thousands, perhaps
                millions, of people from over a hundred countries who have nothing in
                common other than a knowledge of palaeontology? The only agenda I can
                think of is factual knowledge.

                It is those who promote the lie that this image is a stegosaurus who
                have an agenda. Look at the yourself. I have posted a comparison of
                images under Files.

                You can find more here:
                http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/stegosaurus-in-cambodian-te\
                mple/
                http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ancient-cambodian-stegosaur\
                us/
                http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2009/03/stegosaurus-rhinoceros-\
                hoax/
                http://www.stupiddinosaurlies.org/the-stegosaurus-carving-that-isn-t

                >
                > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY Time 0:57 to
                6:17.
                > This is evidence that is verifiable by outsiders to the truth. One
                > possible interpretation of the evidence is that assumptions about
                *deep
                > time* are incorrect. The truth is simple. If the carving is
                something
                > else than a Stegosaurus, then the faithful to the old Theory of
                Evolution
                > should present to us here on Origins Talk their empirical and
                verifiable
                > evidence that contradicts the conclusions of the person who made this
                video.

                Done! See above.

                >
                > D R Lindberg: If you examine that image, and compare it with an
                actual
                > picture of a stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same -
                snout is
                > different, the tail is different, the plates are different. Plus, it
                was a
                > North American animal. No trace of it has ever been found in South
                East
                > Asia. Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal
                > with some
                > kind of halo-like design behind it.
                >
                > Charles P: I respect your narratives, D R Lindberg, and it is OK to
                have
                > different interpretations of the evidence. However, you have only
                > expressed a narrative of your opinions, not empirical and verifiable
                > evidence.

                So, in your world, facts are "a narrative of your [i.e. my] opinions,"
                whereas garbage invented by anti-science conmen is "empirical and
                verifiable evidence."

                Why are you so afraid to look at the evidence I and others have
                presented to you, but continue to pretend that it doesn't exist?

                >
                > David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic.
                >
                > Charles P: Where is your empirical and verifiable evidence for us
                > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution?
                >
                > David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs any time. They
                are
                > avian dinosaurs. There is no credible scientific evidence that humans
                and
                > non avian dinosaurs ever coexisted.
                >
                > Charles P: Just because Jack Horner says so does not make it so.
                Here is
                > an update on how some scientists are willing to continue to deceive
                > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution because of their hatred
                toward
                > creationists.
                >
                > ***********************************************
                >
                > John Michael Fischer: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html
                Charles, You
                > may share it if you like. Discussion of Carbon-14 dating of dinosaur
                bones
                > with defenders of evolution theory reveals their scientific charade.
                When
                > they hear the report of dates from 22,000 to 39,000 years before
                > present in every well-preserved dinosaur skeleton tested using
                sensitive
                > AMS, they always say there cannot be any C-14 left in 65+ million year
                old
                > bones. When you suggest they try it themselves with certified bones
                in
                > museum or university collections, they insist it would be a waste of
                time.
                > If you offer to pay for everything, they end the conversation. When
                you
                > try to publish the test results, they prevent it.
                >
                > John Michael Fischer: They fully realize the consequences to the
                > current paradigm of Earth history that would ensue if the public
                became
                > aware of this scientific data. They will use any tactic to stop its
                > dissemination, just as they annihilate any attempt to teach flaws in
                > evolution theory in school.
                >
                > John Michael Fischer: I respect your tenacity in doing battle in the
                > forums. I quickly lose interest in butting heads with scientific
                > bigots, and have opted instead to lay out the relevant facts at
                > www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html for anyone to see at their
                leisure.
                > It has been enormously successful in recent years.
                >
                > John Michael Fischer: In this age of information, I am confident that
                the
                > Pandora's box that Schweitzer opened with her finding of soft tissue
                will
                > unleash its full effect with the Carbon-14 data. Many of us are
                working
                > towards that day.

                Yes, how unfair it is to prefer 1000s of verified tests over ONE set of
                unverified unduplicated tests! Get back to us when 100s of other tests
                have given similar results.

                >
                > ***********************************************
                >
                > Charles P: The truth is simple and can be verified by outsiders to
                the
                > truth. Why would anyone continue to agree with Jack Horner and Mary
                > Schweitzer to hide scientific evidence from verification by outsiders?

                Yes, hiding it all over the internet, in every relevant science journal
                and in just about every science museum, every university library, and in
                the rocks all over the world!

                The only people hiding anything are those who are trying to bury serious
                science on the internet under loads of tripe.


                > Why
                > would anyone here on Origins Talk want to be part of a deception based
                > solely on their faith in the old Theory of Evolution? Deception in
                the
                > form of long narratives is not simple and cannot be verified by
                outsiders.
                > Deception is only used to distract our attention from the central
                issues.

                I'll bite. Why are you so determined to be part of these deceptions?

                Cheers!








                Just so we're clear, you believe there is a global conspiracy that has
                prevented, for decades, a single piece of data supporting ID (or
                refuting evolution) from appearing in peer-reviewed scientific research
                papers? A body of literature that numbers about 17 million as indexed at
                the National Library of Medicine? As a scientist, I like to know when
                someone calls me a liar and/or part of a super-powerful cabal. These are
                very serious charges, after all! Thanks in advance.
                Posted by: James F | February 19, 2009 3:58 PM Engineer #293,
                http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests_to\
                .php


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lowell Baker
                From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D R Lindberg Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:08 AM To:
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 31 11:53 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of D R Lindberg
                  Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:08 AM
                  To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: RUFFLED FEATHERS AND DINOS






                  --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OriginsTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  . . . . .
                  >
                  > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBZ8o-lmAsg Deception is
                  not
                  > simple and cannot be verified by outsiders. It does not take an
                  expert on
                  > human footprints to recognize that nowhere in this video did Leakey
                  nor
                  > Johanson show us actual Australopithecus fossil feet that look like
                  human
                  > feet. The video lasts 1:28:06. The truth is simple. Anyone who
                  believes
                  > that I am mistaken should show us my mistakes, if any, showing us the
                  time
                  > on the video that contradicts what I am saying. I try to learn from
                  my
                  > mistakes.

                  Did you look at the pictures I sent you? Why do you ignore the evidence?

                  >
                  > Charles P: The deception on the part of Leakey and Johanson is based
                  upon
                  > their religious faith in the old Theory of Evolution which teaches
                  that the
                  > human footprints in Laetoli could not possibly be human footprints
                  because
                  > humans had not yet evolved 3.6 million years ago. This circular
                  reasoning
                  > should never be part of science. It makes more sense to me to
                  question the
                  > methods used to date the footprints. However, *deep time* is another
                  part
                  > of the old Theory of Evolution that the faithful refuse to consider as
                  > possibly incorrect.

                  What you call "*deep time*" is not part of the theory of evolution, old
                  or new. It is a deduction from geological observations made long before
                  Darwin was even born, and that continue to be made. You live in or near
                  the mountains. Go take a look at them. Better yet, read a book or two or
                  take a class on geology before you go.

                  >
                  > 2 Also, there are the reliefs a Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old
                  Ta
                  > Prohm Temple in Cambodia which you can watch on You Tube. This
                  Stegosaur
                  > could not have been carved by anyone other than someone that had seen
                  one.
                  > Now, 1200 years ago I do not think they were finding dino bones. It
                  was not
                  > until recently that we even knew they had fins in that shape on their
                  > backs. No archeologists around either to put bones together. So,
                  modern day
                  > man has seen Dino's, no matter what you want to believe. What this
                  does
                  > mean that the people who have perpetrated the lie that man did not
                  live
                  > with the dinosaurs have an agenda.

                  What agenda would that be that involves many thousands, perhaps
                  millions, of people from over a hundred countries who have nothing in
                  common other than a knowledge of palaeontology? The only agenda I can
                  think of is factual knowledge.

                  It is those who promote the lie that this image is a stegosaurus who
                  have an agenda. Look at the yourself. I have posted a comparison of
                  images under Files.

                  You can find more here:
                  http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/stegosaurus-in-cambodian-te\
                  <http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/stegosaurus-in-cambodian-templ
                  e/>
                  mple/
                  http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ancient-cambodian-stegosaur\
                  <http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ancient-cambodian-stegosaurus/
                  >
                  us/
                  http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2009/03/stegosaurus-rhinoceros-\
                  <http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2009/03/stegosaurus-rhinoceros-hoa
                  x/>
                  hoax/
                  http://www.stupiddinosaurlies.org/the-stegosaurus-carving-that-isn-t

                  >
                  > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY Time 0:57 to
                  6:17.
                  > This is evidence that is verifiable by outsiders to the truth. One
                  > possible interpretation of the evidence is that assumptions about
                  *deep
                  > time* are incorrect. The truth is simple. If the carving is
                  something
                  > else than a Stegosaurus, then the faithful to the old Theory of
                  Evolution
                  > should present to us here on Origins Talk their empirical and
                  verifiable
                  > evidence that contradicts the conclusions of the person who made this
                  video.

                  Done! See above.

                  >
                  > D R Lindberg: If you examine that image, and compare it with an
                  actual
                  > picture of a stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same -
                  snout is
                  > different, the tail is different, the plates are different. Plus, it
                  was a
                  > North American animal. No trace of it has ever been found in South
                  East
                  > Asia. Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal
                  > with some
                  > kind of halo-like design behind it.
                  >
                  > Charles P: I respect your narratives, D R Lindberg, and it is OK to
                  have
                  > different interpretations of the evidence. However, you have only
                  > expressed a narrative of your opinions, not empirical and verifiable
                  > evidence.

                  So, in your world, facts are "a narrative of your [i.e. my] opinions,"
                  whereas garbage invented by anti-science conmen is "empirical and
                  verifiable evidence."

                  Why are you so afraid to look at the evidence I and others have
                  presented to you, but continue to pretend that it doesn't exist?

                  >
                  > David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic.
                  >
                  > Charles P: Where is your empirical and verifiable evidence for us
                  > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution?
                  >
                  > David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs any time. They
                  are
                  > avian dinosaurs. There is no credible scientific evidence that humans
                  and
                  > non avian dinosaurs ever coexisted.
                  >
                  > Charles P: Just because Jack Horner says so does not make it so.
                  Here is
                  > an update on how some scientists are willing to continue to deceive
                  > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution because of their hatred
                  toward
                  > creationists.
                  >
                  > ***********************************************
                  >
                  > John Michael Fischer: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html
                  Charles, You
                  > may share it if you like. Discussion of Carbon-14 dating of dinosaur
                  bones
                  > with defenders of evolution theory reveals their scientific charade.
                  When
                  > they hear the report of dates from 22,000 to 39,000 years before
                  > present in every well-preserved dinosaur skeleton tested using
                  sensitive
                  > AMS, they always say there cannot be any C-14 left in 65+ million year
                  old
                  > bones. When you suggest they try it themselves with certified bones
                  in
                  > museum or university collections, they insist it would be a waste of
                  time.
                  > If you offer to pay for everything, they end the conversation. When
                  you
                  > try to publish the test results, they prevent it.
                  >
                  > John Michael Fischer: They fully realize the consequences to the
                  > current paradigm of Earth history that would ensue if the public
                  became
                  > aware of this scientific data. They will use any tactic to stop its
                  > dissemination, just as they annihilate any attempt to teach flaws in
                  > evolution theory in school.
                  >
                  > John Michael Fischer: I respect your tenacity in doing battle in the
                  > forums. I quickly lose interest in butting heads with scientific
                  > bigots, and have opted instead to lay out the relevant facts at
                  > www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html for anyone to see at their
                  leisure.
                  > It has been enormously successful in recent years.
                  >
                  > John Michael Fischer: In this age of information, I am confident that
                  the
                  > Pandora's box that Schweitzer opened with her finding of soft tissue
                  will
                  > unleash its full effect with the Carbon-14 data. Many of us are
                  working
                  > towards that day.

                  Yes, how unfair it is to prefer 1000s of verified tests over ONE set of
                  unverified unduplicated tests! Get back to us when 100s of other tests
                  have given similar results.

                  >
                  > ***********************************************
                  >
                  > Charles P: The truth is simple and can be verified by outsiders to
                  the
                  > truth. Why would anyone continue to agree with Jack Horner and Mary
                  > Schweitzer to hide scientific evidence from verification by outsiders?

                  Yes, hiding it all over the internet, in every relevant science journal
                  and in just about every science museum, every university library, and in
                  the rocks all over the world!

                  The only people hiding anything are those who are trying to bury serious
                  science on the internet under loads of tripe.

                  > Why
                  > would anyone here on Origins Talk want to be part of a deception based
                  > solely on their faith in the old Theory of Evolution? Deception in
                  the
                  > form of long narratives is not simple and cannot be verified by
                  outsiders.
                  > Deception is only used to distract our attention from the central
                  issues.

                  I'll bite. Why are you so determined to be part of these deceptions?

                  Cheers!

                  Just so we're clear, you believe there is a global conspiracy that has
                  prevented, for decades, a single piece of data supporting ID (or
                  refuting evolution) from appearing in peer-reviewed scientific research
                  papers? A body of literature that numbers about 17 million as indexed at
                  the National Library of Medicine? As a scientist, I like to know when
                  someone calls me a liar and/or part of a super-powerful cabal. These are
                  very serious charges, after all! Thanks in advance.
                  Posted by: James F | February 19, 2009 3:58 PM Engineer #293,
                  http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests_to\
                  <http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests_to.ph
                  p>
                  .php

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lowell Baker
                  Overall site for where the slab of Jurassic material is showing where the Red Fleet Reservoir is. From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 31 11:56 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Overall site for where the slab of Jurassic material is showing where the
                    Red Fleet Reservoir is.



                    From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of D R Lindberg
                    Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:08 AM
                    To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: RUFFLED FEATHERS AND DINOS






                    --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OriginsTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                    Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    . . . . .
                    >
                    > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBZ8o-lmAsg Deception is
                    not
                    > simple and cannot be verified by outsiders. It does not take an
                    expert on
                    > human footprints to recognize that nowhere in this video did Leakey
                    nor
                    > Johanson show us actual Australopithecus fossil feet that look like
                    human
                    > feet. The video lasts 1:28:06. The truth is simple. Anyone who
                    believes
                    > that I am mistaken should show us my mistakes, if any, showing us the
                    time
                    > on the video that contradicts what I am saying. I try to learn from
                    my
                    > mistakes.

                    Did you look at the pictures I sent you? Why do you ignore the evidence?

                    >
                    > Charles P: The deception on the part of Leakey and Johanson is based
                    upon
                    > their religious faith in the old Theory of Evolution which teaches
                    that the
                    > human footprints in Laetoli could not possibly be human footprints
                    because
                    > humans had not yet evolved 3.6 million years ago. This circular
                    reasoning
                    > should never be part of science. It makes more sense to me to
                    question the
                    > methods used to date the footprints. However, *deep time* is another
                    part
                    > of the old Theory of Evolution that the faithful refuse to consider as
                    > possibly incorrect.

                    What you call "*deep time*" is not part of the theory of evolution, old
                    or new. It is a deduction from geological observations made long before
                    Darwin was even born, and that continue to be made. You live in or near
                    the mountains. Go take a look at them. Better yet, read a book or two or
                    take a class on geology before you go.

                    >
                    > 2 Also, there are the reliefs a Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old
                    Ta
                    > Prohm Temple in Cambodia which you can watch on You Tube. This
                    Stegosaur
                    > could not have been carved by anyone other than someone that had seen
                    one.
                    > Now, 1200 years ago I do not think they were finding dino bones. It
                    was not
                    > until recently that we even knew they had fins in that shape on their
                    > backs. No archeologists around either to put bones together. So,
                    modern day
                    > man has seen Dino's, no matter what you want to believe. What this
                    does
                    > mean that the people who have perpetrated the lie that man did not
                    live
                    > with the dinosaurs have an agenda.

                    What agenda would that be that involves many thousands, perhaps
                    millions, of people from over a hundred countries who have nothing in
                    common other than a knowledge of palaeontology? The only agenda I can
                    think of is factual knowledge.

                    It is those who promote the lie that this image is a stegosaurus who
                    have an agenda. Look at the yourself. I have posted a comparison of
                    images under Files.

                    You can find more here:
                    http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/stegosaurus-in-cambodian-te\
                    <http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/stegosaurus-in-cambodian-templ
                    e/>
                    mple/
                    http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ancient-cambodian-stegosaur\
                    <http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ancient-cambodian-stegosaurus/
                    >
                    us/
                    http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2009/03/stegosaurus-rhinoceros-\
                    <http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2009/03/stegosaurus-rhinoceros-hoa
                    x/>
                    hoax/
                    http://www.stupiddinosaurlies.org/the-stegosaurus-carving-that-isn-t

                    >
                    > Charles P: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY Time 0:57 to
                    6:17.
                    > This is evidence that is verifiable by outsiders to the truth. One
                    > possible interpretation of the evidence is that assumptions about
                    *deep
                    > time* are incorrect. The truth is simple. If the carving is
                    something
                    > else than a Stegosaurus, then the faithful to the old Theory of
                    Evolution
                    > should present to us here on Origins Talk their empirical and
                    verifiable
                    > evidence that contradicts the conclusions of the person who made this
                    video.

                    Done! See above.

                    >
                    > D R Lindberg: If you examine that image, and compare it with an
                    actual
                    > picture of a stegosaurus, you will see that they are not the same -
                    snout is
                    > different, the tail is different, the plates are different. Plus, it
                    was a
                    > North American animal. No trace of it has ever been found in South
                    East
                    > Asia. Most archaeologists interpret your carving as a domestic animal
                    > with some
                    > kind of halo-like design behind it.
                    >
                    > Charles P: I respect your narratives, D R Lindberg, and it is OK to
                    have
                    > different interpretations of the evidence. However, you have only
                    > expressed a narrative of your opinions, not empirical and verifiable
                    > evidence.

                    So, in your world, facts are "a narrative of your [i.e. my] opinions,"
                    whereas garbage invented by anti-science conmen is "empirical and
                    verifiable evidence."

                    Why are you so afraid to look at the evidence I and others have
                    presented to you, but continue to pretend that it doesn't exist?

                    >
                    > David Williams: There were no humans during the Jurassic.
                    >
                    > Charles P: Where is your empirical and verifiable evidence for us
                    > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution?
                    >
                    > David Williams: I can look at and hear modern dinosaurs any time. They
                    are
                    > avian dinosaurs. There is no credible scientific evidence that humans
                    and
                    > non avian dinosaurs ever coexisted.
                    >
                    > Charles P: Just because Jack Horner says so does not make it so.
                    Here is
                    > an update on how some scientists are willing to continue to deceive
                    > outsiders to the old Theory of Evolution because of their hatred
                    toward
                    > creationists.
                    >
                    > ***********************************************
                    >
                    > John Michael Fischer: http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html
                    Charles, You
                    > may share it if you like. Discussion of Carbon-14 dating of dinosaur
                    bones
                    > with defenders of evolution theory reveals their scientific charade.
                    When
                    > they hear the report of dates from 22,000 to 39,000 years before
                    > present in every well-preserved dinosaur skeleton tested using
                    sensitive
                    > AMS, they always say there cannot be any C-14 left in 65+ million year
                    old
                    > bones. When you suggest they try it themselves with certified bones
                    in
                    > museum or university collections, they insist it would be a waste of
                    time.
                    > If you offer to pay for everything, they end the conversation. When
                    you
                    > try to publish the test results, they prevent it.
                    >
                    > John Michael Fischer: They fully realize the consequences to the
                    > current paradigm of Earth history that would ensue if the public
                    became
                    > aware of this scientific data. They will use any tactic to stop its
                    > dissemination, just as they annihilate any attempt to teach flaws in
                    > evolution theory in school.
                    >
                    > John Michael Fischer: I respect your tenacity in doing battle in the
                    > forums. I quickly lose interest in butting heads with scientific
                    > bigots, and have opted instead to lay out the relevant facts at
                    > www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html for anyone to see at their
                    leisure.
                    > It has been enormously successful in recent years.
                    >
                    > John Michael Fischer: In this age of information, I am confident that
                    the
                    > Pandora's box that Schweitzer opened with her finding of soft tissue
                    will
                    > unleash its full effect with the Carbon-14 data. Many of us are
                    working
                    > towards that day.

                    Yes, how unfair it is to prefer 1000s of verified tests over ONE set of
                    unverified unduplicated tests! Get back to us when 100s of other tests
                    have given similar results.

                    >
                    > ***********************************************
                    >
                    > Charles P: The truth is simple and can be verified by outsiders to
                    the
                    > truth. Why would anyone continue to agree with Jack Horner and Mary
                    > Schweitzer to hide scientific evidence from verification by outsiders?

                    Yes, hiding it all over the internet, in every relevant science journal
                    and in just about every science museum, every university library, and in
                    the rocks all over the world!

                    The only people hiding anything are those who are trying to bury serious
                    science on the internet under loads of tripe.

                    > Why
                    > would anyone here on Origins Talk want to be part of a deception based
                    > solely on their faith in the old Theory of Evolution? Deception in
                    the
                    > form of long narratives is not simple and cannot be verified by
                    outsiders.
                    > Deception is only used to distract our attention from the central
                    issues.

                    I'll bite. Why are you so determined to be part of these deceptions?

                    Cheers!

                    Just so we're clear, you believe there is a global conspiracy that has
                    prevented, for decades, a single piece of data supporting ID (or
                    refuting evolution) from appearing in peer-reviewed scientific research
                    papers? A body of literature that numbers about 17 million as indexed at
                    the National Library of Medicine? As a scientist, I like to know when
                    someone calls me a liar and/or part of a super-powerful cabal. These are
                    very serious charges, after all! Thanks in advance.
                    Posted by: James F | February 19, 2009 3:58 PM Engineer #293,
                    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests_to\
                    <http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests_to.ph
                    p>
                    .php

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