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Re: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!

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  • Laurie Appleton
    ... From: David To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:50 AM Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO! ... David Williams: Evolution
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 12, 2012
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: David
      To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:50 AM
      Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!





      > --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@> wrote:
      > >
      > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
      > > -------------------------------
      > >
      > > If evolution is true, then there must be
      > > some innovational and integrative principle
      > > operating in the natural world which
      > > develops order out of randomness and
      > > higher order from lower order.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
      >
      >
      > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
      >

      David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.



      LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)



      Laurie.

      "From my earliest training as a scientist, I was very strongly brainwashed
      to believe that science cannot be consistent with any kind of deliberate
      creation. That notion has had to be painfully shed.
      (Chandra Wickramasinghe, noted astronomer and ex-atheist Buddhist, 1981)

      ..





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    • David
      ... David Williams: It seems it never happens does not mean it never happens.
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 12, 2012
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        --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: David
        > To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:50 AM
        > Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
        > > > -------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > If evolution is true, then there must be
        > > > some innovational and integrative principle
        > > > operating in the natural world which
        > > > develops order out of randomness and
        > > > higher order from lower order.
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
        > >
        > >
        > > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
        > >
        >
        > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
        >
        >
        >
        > LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)
        >


        David Williams: It seems it never happens does not mean it never happens.

        >
        >
        > Laurie.
        >
        > "From my earliest training as a scientist, I was very strongly brainwashed
        > to believe that science cannot be consistent with any kind of deliberate
        > creation. That notion has had to be painfully shed.
        > (Chandra Wickramasinghe, noted astronomer and ex-atheist Buddhist, 1981)
        >
        > ..
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5887 - Release Date: 11/10/12
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Charles Palm
        David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe. Evolution: http://creationwiki.org/Evolution The word evolution basically means gradual
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 12, 2012
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          David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.

          Evolution: http://creationwiki.org/Evolution The word evolution basically
          means "gradual change". In the broadest sense the word is all-pervasive;
          stars, galaxies, languages, attitudes, maturity and political systems all
          evolve through time. Beyond this broad definition, the word evolution is
          used in a number of different ways, leading to a great deal of confusion.

          Laurie Appleton: Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof.
          Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin",
          quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution
          for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95).

          Charles P: James A Shapiro has concluded that living things are designed
          to evolve. The disagreement that Eldredge mentions seems to be between
          geneticists and paleontologists. Paleontologists do not seem to believe
          that evolution was "gradual change" as described by some geneticists. If I
          am wrong, please provide some empirical and verifiable evidence so that I
          may correct any misunderstandings.

          Reinventing Darwin:
          http://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Darwin-Debate-Evolutionary-Theory/dp/0471303011
          On the one side are the geneticists. They contend that evolution
          proceeds
          slowly but surely, driven by competition among organisms to transmit their
          genes from generation to generation. On the other are the paleontologists,
          like Eldredge and Gould, who show in the fossil record that in fact
          evolution proceeds only sporadically. Long periods of no
          change—equilibria—are "punctuated" by episodes of rapid evolutionary
          activity. According to the paleontologists, this pattern shows that
          evolution is driven far more by environmental forces than by genetic
          competition.

          James A Shapiro: References #1151, #1152-#1154: An evolutionary process
          that follows these principles [of natural genetic engineering] will
          naturally display the kind of episodic and abrupt changes found in both the
          fossil and genomic records. Indeed, the punctuated equilibrium pattern of
          Gould and Eldridge should be the default situation, because the stimulating
          role of ecological challenges is unpredictable.

          James A Shapiro: References #34, #35, #36-39: Living cells do not operate
          blindly. They continually acquire information about the external
          environment and monitor their internal operations. Then they use this
          information to guide the processes essential to survival, growth, and
          reproduction. Cells constantly adjust their metabolism to available
          nutrients, control their progress through the cell cycle to make sure that
          all progeny are complete at the time of division, repair damage as it
          occurs, and interact appropriately with other cells. In a multicellular
          context, they even undergo programmed cell death when suicide is beneficial
          to the entire population or to the multicellular organism as a whole.
          Without an elaborate sensory apparatus to pick up signals about chemicals
          in the environment (nutrients, poisons, signals emitted by other cells) or
          to keep track of intracellular events (DNA replication, organelle growth,
          oxidative damage), a cell’s opportunity to proliferate or contribute to
          whole-organism development would be severely restricted.

          James A Shapiro: References #40, #41, #42, #43: Life requires cognition
          at all levels. Molecular biology has successfully documented many
          examples of cellular information acquisition, transmission, and
          processing, some of which will be described here in Part I. But we
          should remember that there is not yet any deep theoretical understanding
          of the basic principles of cell informatics. Developing that understanding
          is a major biological research goal of the present century. The best we can
          do right now is to recognize that cells utilize many kinds of molecular
          interactions to process information and execute appropriate decisions.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • gluadys
          ... There is confusion only if one imports non-biological meanings into biology. Scientists know precisely what they mean by biological evolution and they
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 13, 2012
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            --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
            >
            > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
            >
            > Evolution: http://creationwiki.org/Evolution The word evolution basically
            > means "gradual change". In the broadest sense the word is all-pervasive;
            > stars, galaxies, languages, attitudes, maturity and political systems all
            > evolve through time. Beyond this broad definition, the word evolution is
            > used in a number of different ways, leading to a great deal of confusion.
            >


            There is confusion only if one imports non-biological meanings into biology. Scientists know precisely what they mean by biological evolution and they know a great deal about the mechanisms of biological evolution.





            > Charles P: The disagreement that Eldredge mentions seems to be between
            > geneticists and paleontologists. Paleontologists do not seem to believe
            > that evolution was "gradual change" as described by some geneticists. If I
            > am wrong, please provide some empirical and verifiable evidence so that I
            > may correct any misunderstandings.
            >

            You are wrong, for paleontologists do agree that evolution is gradual change, just as the geneticists do. You will find evidence of that agreement when you read more than quote-mined snippets from Eldredge and his colleague, Gould.

            The main difference is that geneticists measure change in the frequency of alleles, which includes a lot of change that may not show up morphologically. Genetic change does occur at rates too rapid to be preserved geologically. Paleontologists, for the most part, have no access to the alleles of their specimens, and have to rely on visible morphological change, much of which is never preserved in the fossil record either.

            The primary contribution of Gould and Eldredge to evolutionary theory was to show 1)that speciation is usually cladistic i.e. a branching off of one population from another rather than a whole species slowly changing over time, and 2)speciation occurs mostly in small isolated populations on the fringe of a species range.

            What the fossil record often shows is the replacement of one species by another through immigration--giving it a jumpy "punctuated" appearance.

            Gould also made the point that Darwin did not distinguish between two meanings of "gradual": 1) at a slow pace, and 2)in small incremental steps. He assumed the small, incremental steps would be taken slowly. Gould agrees with the second meaning--evolution requires small incremental steps, but disagrees that the rate must always be slow. On this geneticists agree with him. There is abundant evidence now that genetic change can happen quickly.

            What holds back rapid species change is not genetics, but natural selection. This is another point made and illustrated by Sean Carroll in The Making of the Fittest.
          • stewart8724
            GLU: Natural selection is independent of mutations. LA Your comments are a clear example of the conclusion of the noted scientist who wrote the Introduction
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 13, 2012
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              GLU:
              Natural selection is independent of mutations.

              LA> Your comments are a clear example of the conclusion of the noted scientist who wrote the Introduction to the 1956 publication of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species". He stated the following;

              "To establish the continuity required by theory,
              historical arguments are invoked, even though
              historical evidence is lacking. Thus are engendered
              those fragile towers of hypotheses based on hypotheses,
              where fact and fiction intermingle in an inextricable
              confusion."


              David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.

              LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)

              Laurie.

              Stewart: As a not very famous ex-atheist, converted to an ex-Christian who became a former creationist turned one time evolutionist wrote:-
              "You don't know anything do you Laurie, I mean you haven't discovered anything at all? You have no thoughts to call your own and no ambition to find a way of forming any. Some people leave the world a better place than when they entered it, others leave it scarred and wounded by their existence. You will leave it as tough you were never here, and opportunity squandered is the worst sin of all".


              ..

              --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: David
              > To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:50 AM
              > Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
              > > > -------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > If evolution is true, then there must be
              > > > some innovational and integrative principle
              > > > operating in the natural world which
              > > > develops order out of randomness and
              > > > higher order from lower order.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
              > >
              > >
              > > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
              > >
              >
              > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
              >
              >
              >
              > LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)
              >
              >
              >
              > Laurie.
              >
              > "From my earliest training as a scientist, I was very strongly brainwashed
              > to believe that science cannot be consistent with any kind of deliberate
              > creation. That notion has had to be painfully shed.
              > (Chandra Wickramasinghe, noted astronomer and ex-atheist Buddhist, 1981)
              >
              > ..
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5887 - Release Date: 11/10/12
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Laurie Appleton
              ... From: David To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:49 AM Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO! ... David Williams: It seems it
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 13, 2012
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: David
                To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:49 AM
                Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!





                > > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
                > > > -------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > If evolution is true, then there must be
                > > > some innovational and integrative principle
                > > > operating in the natural world which
                > > > develops order out of randomness and
                > > > higher order from lower order.
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
                > >
                > >
                > > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
                > >
                >
                > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
                >
                >
                >
                > LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)
                >

                David Williams: It seems it never happens does not mean it never happens.


                LA> Nor does it mean that it does happen and therefore evolutionism is "barely a postulate". Little wonder then, as the respected scientist who was asked to write the introduction to the 1956 publication of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" wrote in his concluding remarks;

                ------------------------------

                "To establish the continuity required by theory,
                historical arguments are invoked, even though
                historical evidence is lacking. Thus are engendered
                those fragile towers of hypotheses based on hypotheses,
                where fact and fiction intermingle in an inextricable
                confusion."

                (New Challenging "Introduction" to the Origin of Species
                Everyman Library No. 811 (1956), Prof. W.R. Thompson, FRS. p. 5)

                =================================


                Laurie.

                Evidence from the fossil record now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans learned in high school; (Newsweek, November, 1980)

                ..


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                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5890 - Release Date: 11/12/12


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              • VictorM
                ... Many creationist fight a war against evolution. They can t win their war because the Bible plainly mentions changes in matter, changes in animals and
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 13, 2012
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                  --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
                  >
                  > Evolution: http://creationwiki.org/Evolution The word evolution basically
                  > means "gradual change". In the broadest sense the word is all-pervasive;
                  > stars, galaxies, languages, attitudes, maturity and political systems all
                  > evolve through time. Beyond this broad definition, the word evolution is
                  > used in a number of different ways, leading to a great deal of confusion.
                  >

                  Many creationist fight a war against evolution. They can't win their war because the Bible plainly mentions changes in matter, changes in animals and changes in plants. The changes occurred in the first week as well as subsequently.

                  Elohim continued to command ground to produce living planets that reproduced and grew into trees that bore fruit - all on half a day.
                  He continued to command waters to team with reproducing life. He continued to command the ground to produce living creature. He continued to command stars to continued to form, from the formless stuff created on the first day. He continued to form the Sun, Moon and stars and continued to place them in the spreading place. Notice that nature itself is commanded to act, so that inanimate things produced life at Gods continuing commands. We confirm the Biblical account with our telescopes. Billions of galaxies that were originally naked and whose atoms shone at tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern atoms, shot out streams of dense globs that later spread out into stars. Billions of galaxies intrinsically grew into huge growth spirals. This is the most powerful evidence for creation and for intrinsic changes in matter.

                  Later God cursed the animals and the ground so that it would produce thorns and thistles. Notice He did not make the thorns and thistles - the ground did. Animals and plants have continued to change, but they do not change into different kinds.

                  God Himself claims to change animals for their survival - feeding the lions who originally were vegetarians.

                  In other words some aspects of evolution are Biblical, because GOd commanded ground and animals and plants to change passively, that is naturally. The evolution of matter is one of the most powerful confirmation of creation. We can see hundreds of billions of galaxies at many ranges back through the vast eons to the beginning of the universe. Not a single one of them clocks the frequencies of modern atoms. We observe how the orbits accelerate along with the accelerating atomic clocks as galaxies intrinsically grew into huge growth spirals. NOt only did the galaxies grow, but the Earth has grown from a tiny body without major seas - the continents only fit together on a tiny globe. Even when we sent calibrated clocks out of the solar system, their signals transmitted hours ago kept on accelerating, compared to the NASA's clocks of the moment.

                  How utterly devastating will be the triumph of the literal words of God over science, the system that was founded on the very idea the Bible predicted for the false teachers of the last days - the notion that all things remain the same.

                  Victor
                • David
                  ... David Williams: If you can drink milk, then you are descended from people who had a mutation that kept the gene for lactase activated in adulthood. That is
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 13, 2012
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                    --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: David
                    > To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:49 AM
                    > Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
                    > > > > -------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If evolution is true, then there must be
                    > > > > some innovational and integrative principle
                    > > > > operating in the natural world which
                    > > > > develops order out of randomness and
                    > > > > higher order from lower order.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)
                    > >
                    >
                    > David Williams: It seems it never happens does not mean it never happens.
                    >
                    >
                    > LA> Nor does it mean that it does happen and therefore evolutionism is "barely a postulate". Little wonder then, as the respected scientist who was asked to write the introduction to the 1956 publication of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" wrote in his concluding remarks;
                    >

                    David Williams: If you can drink milk, then you are descended from people who had a mutation that kept the gene for lactase activated in adulthood. That is one example of evolution. Many of the world's adults feel ill if they try to drink milk. All of your so called evidence against evolution is pathetic.


                    -----------------------------
                    >
                    > "To establish the continuity required by theory,
                    > historical arguments are invoked, even though
                    > historical evidence is lacking. Thus are engendered
                    > those fragile towers of hypotheses based on hypotheses,
                    > where fact and fiction intermingle in an inextricable
                    > confusion."
                    >
                    > (New Challenging "Introduction" to the Origin of Species
                    > Everyman Library No. 811 (1956), Prof. W.R. Thompson, FRS. p. 5)
                    >
                    > =================================
                    >
                    >
                    > Laurie.
                    >
                    > Evidence from the fossil record now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans learned in high school; (Newsweek, November, 1980)
                    >
                    > ..
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this message.
                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5890 - Release Date: 11/12/12
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Laurie Appleton
                    ... From: David To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO! ... David Williams: If you can
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 14, 2012
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: David
                      To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:59 PM
                      Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!





                      > > > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
                      > > > > -------------------------------
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If evolution is true, then there must be
                      > > > > some innovational and integrative principle
                      > > > > operating in the natural world which
                      > > > > develops order out of randomness and
                      > > > > higher order from lower order.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)
                      > >
                      >
                      > David Williams: It seems it never happens does not mean it never happens.
                      >
                      >
                      > LA> Nor does it mean that it does happen and therefore evolutionism is "barely a postulate". Little wonder then, as the respected scientist who was asked to write the introduction to the 1956 publication of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" wrote in his concluding remarks;
                      >

                      David Williams: If you can drink milk, then you are descended from people who had a mutation that kept the gene for lactase activated in adulthood. That is one example of evolution. Many of the world's adults feel ill if they try to drink milk. All of your so called evidence against evolution is pathetic.



                      LA> Are you seriously trying to say that this "mutation" is evidence that convinces you that "people came from monkeys"? Sounds like you are really really "struggling" with the subject! Perhaps you have something else that convinces you that everything came from nothing and for no reason?



                      Laurie.

                      Evidence from the fossil record now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans learned in high school; (Newsweek, November, 1980)
                      ..



                      No virus found in this message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David
                      ... David Williams: I do not of any adult monkeys that can drink milk without discomfort. Nothing and something are different sides of the same coin. Neither
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 14, 2012
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                        --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Appleton" <lappleto@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: David
                        > To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:59 PM
                        > Subject: [OriginsTalk] Re: ONLY TWO!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > > > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
                        > > > > > -------------------------------
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If evolution is true, then there must be
                        > > > > > some innovational and integrative principle
                        > > > > > operating in the natural world which
                        > > > > > develops order out of randomness and
                        > > > > > higher order from lower order.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > GLU: There is. Darwin named this principle "natural selection".
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > LA> On the contrary. Creation scientists always accepted natural selection. However "selection" can ONLY select AFTER something has already evolved upwards and improved and this is the very thing that does NOT happen!
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > David Williams: Evolution happens whether or not you believe.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > LA> Strange comment because a leading evolutionist, Prof. Niles Eldredge has stated in his 1995 book entitled; "Reinventing Darwin", quite clearly that; "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never happen." (p.95)
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > David Williams: It seems it never happens does not mean it never happens.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > LA> Nor does it mean that it does happen and therefore evolutionism is "barely a postulate". Little wonder then, as the respected scientist who was asked to write the introduction to the 1956 publication of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" wrote in his concluding remarks;
                        > >
                        >
                        > David Williams: If you can drink milk, then you are descended from people who had a mutation that kept the gene for lactase activated in adulthood. That is one example of evolution. Many of the world's adults feel ill if they try to drink milk. All of your so called evidence against evolution is pathetic.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > LA> Are you seriously trying to say that this "mutation" is evidence that convinces you that "people came from monkeys"? Sounds like you are really really "struggling" with the subject! Perhaps you have something else that convinces you that everything came from nothing and for no reason?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Laurie.
                        >
                        > Evidence from the fossil record now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans learned in high school; (Newsweek, November, 1980)
                        > ..
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        David Williams: I do not of any adult monkeys that can drink milk without discomfort. Nothing and something are different sides of the same coin. Neither can exist without the other.

                        As for people, they not only are people descended from apes, they are apes.
                        For proof, you can look at the apes in the New York stock exchange, or the apes in the USA congress. After our last election, many of the USA apes started hooting and hollering because their ape will not be president. We will keep the ape we have as president.


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                      • VictorM
                        ... Of course not. The Bible plainly states that God commanded the animals to reproduce after their kinds. That does not mean that (1) that gradual changes
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 14, 2012
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                          > > LA> Dr. Henry M. Morris -- noted Creation scientist, points out the following;
                          > > -------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > If evolution is true, then there must be
                          > > some innovational and integrative principle
                          > > operating in the natural world which
                          > > develops order out of randomness and
                          > > higher order from lower order. Since, by
                          > > uniformitarianism, this principle is still in
                          > > effect, scientists should be able to observe
                          > > and quantify it.
                          > >
                          > > The creation model, on the other hand,
                          > > suggests that there should be a conservational
                          > > and disintegrative principle operating in nature.
                          > >
                          > > Since the total quantity
                          > > of matter and energy, as well as the perfect
                          > > degree of order, were created super-
                          > > naturally in the beginning, we could not expect
                          > > to see naturalistic processes of innovation
                          > > and integration, as required by evolution,
                          > > working today.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Victor: Unfortunately Morris did not read his Bible carefully. God commanded the ground and the animals to change and the verb is passive in Hebrew. In other words change is absolutely natural in matter, in animals and in plants. The changes in matter are the easiest to prove since we can see the past. Every atomic clock in hundreds of billions of galaxies clocks a different frequency than modern atoms. What we see is relational changes, where everything changes in an orderly manner, together, just like the verbs the Apostle Paul used to describe how the universe is enslaved to change.
                          >
                          >
                          > LA> Are you claiming then that "monkeys changed into people"?
                          >

                          Of course not. The Bible plainly states that God commanded the animals to reproduce after their kinds. That does not mean that (1) that gradual changes have not resulted from nature or the (2) God is not Himself changing nature, which He claims to do in the book of Job.

                          >
                          >
                          > Victor: How totally complete will be the triumph of the words of God over science, the system that was founded on the idea the Bible predicted for the last days - the notion that all things remain the same.
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                          >
                          > LA> Are you referring to "Evolutionary science" then? Such "scientists" claim that all living things "change" UPWARDS from simple to more and more complex forms, don't they? If that is the "science" that you predict will be refuted then you would be correct of course.
                          >

                          You can define science in two ways. (1) Simple knowledge, such as observations of bees and flowers. (2) A structured way of arranging knowledge based on a first principle. Modern science is of the latter kind. It was contrived on a single assumption, a first law, that the Bible predicted for the mockers of the last days.

                          Scientists, whether creationists or evolutionists, try to explain reality with symbolical, mathematical things no one has ever detected. Mass, energy and time are operationally defined with the assumption that the properties of matter are fixed - not emerging.

                          Victor
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