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Re: The Making of the Fittest

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  • gluadys
    ... Unless IDists have empirical and verifiable evidence that supports Intelligent Design, it is not possible to offer a scientific criticism of it. What is
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
      --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Charles P: http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php It is also a
      > wise idea to keep in mind that Intelligent Design is not the same as
      > creationism. Unless critics have empirical and verifiable evidence that
      > contradicts Intelligent Design, their criticism is unscientific.
      >


      Unless IDists have empirical and verifiable evidence that supports Intelligent Design, it is not possible to offer a scientific criticism of it. What is empirically observable is that ID uses the same oratorical strategies & tactics, often even the same arguments, as evolution-denying creationists. So, the observation that it is a repackaging of creationism seems to be borne out by the evidence.


      > Charles P: http://creationwiki.org/Evolution It is also a wise idea to
      > keep in mind that creationists also believe in evolution. The empirical
      > and verifiable scientific evidence is the same for everyone. It is OK that
      > we have different interpretations of that evidence.
      >


      It is not OK to have false interpretations of the evidence, or to treat false interpretations as justifiable "differences of opinion". It is also not OK to cherry-pick evidence (as much evolution-denying literature does) to give a false impression of supportive evidence when the more complete picture is clearly in favour of evolution.
    • Joe Martin
      From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Appleton Sent: October-31-12 9:22 PM To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
        From: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Laurie Appleton
        Sent: October-31-12 9:22 PM
        To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [OriginsTalk] The Making of the Fittest






        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Charles Palm
        To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OriginsTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:55 AM
        Subject: [OriginsTalk] The Making of the Fittest

        Gluadys: I have just been reading this book by Sean B. Carroll, also
        author of Endless Forms Most Beautiful.

        Charles P: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5658057n I got the DVD
        by Sean B Carroll. His research is very valuable. He has been one of my
        heroes even before he was on CBS.

        http://seanbcarroll.com/

        James A Shapiro, "Evolution: A View From The 21st Century", p.116: Descent
        with modification provides the overall context for this book, whose main
        theme is to illustrate how many exciting facts we have learned about the
        processes that lead to evolutionary inventions. Analyzing the fossil
        record is somewhat outside the scope of this book, but the correlation
        of paleontological novelties and genome organization is a fascinating
        question addressed by the branch of science now called Evo-Devo, the study
        of the evolutionary basis of morphogenetic processes.

        ****************************************************************************
        ****

        Laurie Appleton: On the other hand various evolutionists have admitted at
        various times... etc.etc.etc.

        Charles P: http://creationwiki.org/Evolution Creationists also believe in
        evolution. The material that you have quoted might sound very impressive
        in church or a political campaign, but unless there is empirical and
        verifiable evidence contrary to what Sean B Carroll is describing or
        contrary to the descriptions for the diversity of life concluded from
        evo-devo research, Laurie, your quoted material is unscientific.

        LA> Yes Charles. However a number of evolutionists have clearly stated in
        their writings that it was on the scientific questions that the Creation
        scientists regularly routed their evolutionary opponents. Besides that the
        facts of the matter is that the Evolutionist debaters insisted that ONLY
        scientific arguments were to be debated anyway, and this was what was
        adhered to. The following is another example of an evolutionary Biologist's
        written statement;

        -----------------------

        "Why do creationists seem to be the consistent
        winners in public debates

        JM> not scientific debates. YECs have never HAD a scientific debate where
        the merits, theories and hypotheses of the science of creation has been
        presented for scientific scutiny... WHY?? Because YEC has no scientific
        evidence to support any of the wild notions proposed by YEC science(sic).
        Public debating games are not science.



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      • Charles Palm
        Gluadys: I have just been reading this book by Sean B. Carroll, also author of Endless Forms Most Beautiful. Charles P:
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
          Gluadys: I have just been reading this book by Sean B. Carroll, also
          author of Endless Forms Most Beautiful.

          Charles P: http://www.hhmi.org/news/mesozoic20121026.html This is some of
          what Sean B Carroll is doing nowadays.

          Sean B. Carroll, HHMI vice president for science education and the film�s
          executive producer, will introduce the story to teachers on October 31
          during the second annual HHMI Night at the Movies at the NABT conference in
          Dallas, Texas. Following the film, Carroll will host a panel discussion
          with teachers attending the conference.

          http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/shortfilms/ The Day the Mesozoic Died.
          33 minutes 43 seconds. Watch The Day the Mesozoic Died (720p HD, 2Mbps)

          ********************************************************************************
          Charles P: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/28214 You
          will probably remember some of the 19 messages we discussed here on Origins
          Talk in April about stickleback fish research done by evo-devo researchers.

          Charles P: http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/shortfilms/ The Making of
          the Fittest: Evolving Switches, Evolving Bodies 15 minutes 27 seconds.
          Watch Evolving Switches, Evolving Bodies(720p HD, 2Mbps). Here is a new
          updated video with some new evidence that describes the diversity of life
          similarly to the way James A Shapiro does. The name Mike Shapiro appears
          on some stickleback slides.

          http://edenrcn.com/steering/shapiro.html Genetic architecture of
          evolutionary change. Sticklebacks are ideal model organisms for genetic and
          developmental studies of natural populations because different populations
          of these fish vary dramatically in skeletal structures, yet fish from
          throughout the Northern Hemisphere can be readily crossed in the laboratory
          for genetic mapping experiments. Previous work determined that cis-acting
          regulatory changes in the Pitx1 locus are responsible for hind fin (pelvis)
          loss in a population of threespine sticklebacks (Shapiro et al., 2004,
          Nature). More recently, we showed that both similar and different genetic
          changes control pelvic reduction in ninespine sticklebacks (Shapiro et al.
          2006, PNAS; Shapiro et al., 2009, Current Biology), a different genus of
          fish that last shared a common ancestor with threespine sticklebacks over
          10 million years ago. By comparing the genetic basis of other traits
          between the two different types of fish, we can critically test whether
          similar genetic mechanisms repeatedly underlie similar adaptive phenotypes,
          a topic of enduring interest to geneticists and evolutionary biologists.


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