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Re: Living things are designed to evolve.

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  • stewart8724
    Debate tactic: http://www.creationastronomy.com/evolution-has-nothing-to-do-with-astronomy/  There s a debating tactic that s as old as the ancient Greeks.
    Message 1 of 38 , Oct 26, 2012
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      Debate tactic:
      http://www.creationastronomy.com/evolution-has-nothing-to-do-with-astronomy/
       There's
      a debating tactic that's as old as the ancient Greeks. When your opponent
      is correct and you can't refute his arguments, you use an ad hominem attack
      instead.  You smear his character. Mock and ridicule him personally. Call
      him a liar, even when you know he's correct. Anything to cover up the fact
      that he's right.

      Stewart:
      Here is the statement that you made:-
      (Creationist Propaganda Tactic)
      Charles P: The 20th Century version of The Theory of Evolution assumed
      that living things are not designed. The 21st Century version of The
      Theory of Evolution assumes that living things are designed.

      Stewart: Far from being right, you could not have been further from the truth. There is absolutely no basis in fact for your statement. The Theory of evolution doesn't now, nor has it ever considered life to be a deliberate design. I promise you Charles that if I thought you were right I would have no reason to debate with you. What you wrote was wholly untrue, a fib, a falsehood, a porky, an untruth, a lie.

      Charles P: There are two possibilities for living things: (1) design or
      (2) no design. No design = random. Design = not random.

      Stewart: I have no reason to argue with this because it is correct.

      Random: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/random Having no specific
      pattern, purpose, or objective.

      Stewart: Agreed.

      Science: http://www.geosociety.org/positions/position1.htm Science, by
      definition, is a method of learning about the natural universe by asking
      questions in such a way that they can be answered empirically and
      verifiably. If a question cannot be framed so that the answer can be
      tested, and the test results can be reproduced by others, then it is not
      science.

      Stewart: Yes, right again

      Charles P: What is a partial list of the evidence for the design in living
      things that can be shown empirically and verifiably and can also be tested
      by others and those test results reproduced by others?

      1 There is evidence that living things have specific patterns.

      2 There is evidence that living things can't be described by a probability
      distribution.

      Stewart: Could you explain that please?

      3 There is evidence that living things have outcomes of survival, growth,
      and proliferation that are not equally likely.

      Stewart: Absolutely right. Life is a lottery, some might say that luck is randomly distributed.

      4 There is evidence that living things do not have an equal chance of
      being selected for survival, growth, and proliferation in nature.

      Stewart: Which would seem utterly out of place in a planned, purposefully designed scenario.

      5 There is evidence that living things "interact purposefully to ensure
      survival, growth, and proliferation". (Evolution: A View From The 21st
      Century, p.143).

      Stewart: To some extent I agree with this. Some living things interact purposefully. There are living things like trees and bacteria which are not acting purposefully in the sense that they don't make decisions. Although how they operate serves to maintain their existence, I don't think that qualifies as purposeful interaction though.

      6 There is evidence that living things "possess corresponding sensory,
      communication, information-processing, and decision-making capabilities".
      (Evolution: A View From The 21st Century, p.143).

      Stewart: Again yes, some living things have that capability.


      7 There is evidence that living things have systems, processes, and
      elements that have been studied by scientists to help solve human problems.

      Biomimicry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomimicry The examination of
      nature, its models, systems, processes, and elements to emulate or take
      inspiration from in order to solve human problems.

      Charles P: There is evidence that living things do not occur randomly in
      nature.

      Stewart: Oops, See this is what normally happens with your posts Charles. You frame the whole thing in uncontroversial, if unnecessary statements, and then toss in a complete falsehood at random. There is no such evidence, at least not evidence that is recognised by scientists.
      If there was evidence that life was designed, (which is where you're heading here) you would not be contributing to this forum. Science would have ensured that it became widely known and people like me would have to accept what they presently cannot. This forum would be unnecessary and wouldn't exist.
      If however, your statement refers to the fact that there is evidence which proves that life is not spontaneously created, I agree. I take it that's not what you're saying though, is it?

      Chas: There is evidence that every living thing is complex. Non-living
      things can be described adequately by using the laws of physics. Living
      things can be described adequately by using the laws of physics but the
      description must also include the laws of information that are are quickly
      being learned in the 21st Century version of The Theory of Evolution.

      Stewart: Not true. In fact information is entirely dependent on physics. Information is only information if it is stored. To store information you need physical material, information can't exist without matter and is therefore subject to the laws of physics. This phantom 'New Theory of Evolution' that you speak of isn't necessary.

      Charles P: http://ncse.com/evolution/science/what-is-science Adequate
      descriptions of living things are tentative and "will be changed if new
      evidence contradicts previous understandings". The 20th Century version of
      The Theory of Evolution is not scientific. Science and most of its dogmas
      have never been adequately tested. There are 20th Century dogmas that
      can't be tested empirically and verifiably by others.

      Stewart: This has descended into your usual line of rhetoric. Whenever you stray from absolute descriptions, as in dictionary definitions, your flights of fancy emerge with no obvious link between cause and effect.

      Charles P: There is evidence from the 21st Century version of The Theory
      of Evolution that living things are designed to evolve:

      Stewart: To say that things are designed to evolve is not the same as saying they were 'deliberately' designed to evolve. This is the point that Glaudys tried to make to in a previous post. You of course were either oblivious to that point, or deliberately ignored it.


      1 Living things change over time. Descendants are slightly different from
      their ancestors.

      2 Living things are related by common design. All living things respond
      to the instructions that are found in the DNA digital code information that
      is common to all living things. Common ancestry can only be adequately
      tested empirically and verifiably by comparing genomes.

      Stewart:
      Which it has. The genomes of modern Human are 3% Neanderthal, which is a familial share equal to that which you have with your great, great, great, great Grandmother.
      N.B. The first line should have read :- Living things are related by common descent.
      Charles P: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/28921 Ten
      Primates Without A Common Ancestor.

      Stewart: Nonsense. If there were ten such examples, it would disprove common descent and common design.

      3 Living things are naturally selected as they change over time in
      predictable and purposeful processes that can be repeated by others
      empirically and verifiably that ensure survival, growth and proliferation.

      Stewart: You do realise that you're suggesting that the course of evolution in a particular lineage can be reproduced by "others" and result in the same outcome? I would suggest that to be so unlikely as to be an impossibility.

      ********************************************************************************
      Scott Adams: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/scott_adams.html
      Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.

      Stewart: What is it called if you continue to make the same mistakes over and over again, without ever showing any sign of recognising your errors?


      ..

      --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
      >
      > Stewart: This is the kind of arse gravy that illustrates your contempt for
      > facts, and your hypocrisy in lecturing others on the scientific validity of
      > their conclusions. Both of those sentences are 21st century bollocks! The
      > 21st century evolution you describe exists only in the abandoned recesses
      > of your mind. The 'actual' theory of Evolution assumes nothing, it is a
      > science and as such isn't in the business of making assumptions on design.
      >
      > Debate tactic:
      > http://www.creationastronomy.com/evolution-has-nothing-to-do-with-astronomy/
      > There's
      > a debating tactic that's as old as the ancient Greeks. When your opponent
      > is correct and you can't refute his arguments, you use an ad hominem attack
      > instead. You smear his character. Mock and ridicule him personally. Call
      > him a liar, even when you know he's correct. Anything to cover up the fact
      > that he's right.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Charles Palm
      Tia Ghose: http://www.livescience.com/25190-genetic-roots-vertebrate-intelligence.html Cognitive Big Bang Discovered in Tiny Sea Worm. Several brainy
      Message 38 of 38 , Dec 5, 2012
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        Tia Ghose:
        http://www.livescience.com/25190-genetic-roots-vertebrate-intelligence.html
        'Cognitive Big Bang' Discovered in Tiny Sea Worm. Several "brainy"
        genes
        that were duplicated in a tiny sea creature nearly 550 million years ago
        may have led to the massive expansion in intelligence in vertebrate
        species, two new studies have found.

        James A Shapiro: References #40, #41: Life requires cognition at all
        levels.

        James A Shapiro: References #93 - #95: We can think of this two-level
        proofreading process as equivalent to a quality-control system in human
        manufacturing. Like human quality-control systems, it is based on
        surveillance and correction (cognitive processes) rather than mechanical
        precision. The multistep nature of proofreading is typical of many control
        processes in cells,
        where final precision is achieved by a sequence of two or more interactions
        that are each themselves inherently less precise. In this regard, the most
        applicable cybernetic models are fuzzy logic control systems. In such
        systems, accurate regulation occurs by overlaying multiple imprecise
        (“fuzzy”) feedback controls arranged so that each successive event results
        in greater precision.

        James A Shapiro: In other words, we have numerous precise molecular
        descriptions of cell cognition, which range all the way from bacterial
        nutrition to mammalian cell biology and development. The cognitive,
        informatic view of how living cells operate and utilize their genomes is
        radically different from the genetic determinism perspective articulated
        most succinctly, in the
        last century, by Francis Crick’s famous “Central Dogma of Molecular
        Biology.” So it is appropriate to direct our attention to evaluating the
        validity of Crick’s formulation in light of 21st Century knowledge.

        James A Shapiro: A shift from thinking about gradual selection of
        localized random changes to sudden genome restructuring by sensory
        network-influenced cell systems is a major conceptual change. It replaces
        the “invisible hands” of geological time and natural selection with
        cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification. The
        emphasis is systemic rather than atomistic and information-based rather
        than stochastic.

        Stochastic: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stochastic Involving chance
        or probability.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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