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Re: Living things are designed to evolve.

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  • stewart8724
    Stewart: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29840 James A Shapiro doesn t believe that cells were designed. (I stand by this) Stewart:
    Message 1 of 38 , Oct 23, 2012
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      Stewart: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29840 James A
      Shapiro doesn't believe that cells were designed.
      (I stand by this)

      Stewart: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29820 I find
      this very difficult to believe. If I cut my finger it will heal, this
      doesn't require intelligence in my skin cells. Hack at a tree and
      it'll produce sap to seal the wound, but neither trees nor their cells need
      to be intelligent or sentient to achieve this.
      (I stand by this too)


      James A Shapiro: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29863
      (The first 2 or 9 basic principles).

      1 Living cells and organisms are cognitive (sentient) entities that act and
      interact purposefully to ensure survival, growth, and proliferation. They
      possess corresponding sensory, communication, information-processing, and
      decision-making capabilities.

      Stewart: For cells to be cognitive they would need a brain. They don't have one of these so I don't believe they are cognitive. Neither do I believe they are capable of making decisions, in the way we understand 'decisions'.
      I am perfectly willing to accept that I could be wrong, but without evidence of how they could be conscious decision makers without a brain, I don't accept it.

      2 Cells are built to evolve; they have the ability to alter
      their hereditary characteristics rapidly through well-described
      natural genetic engineering and epigenetic processes as well as by cell
      mergers.

      Stewart: "CELLS are built to EVOLVE by NATURAL genetic engineering" is the very opposite of "CELLS were intelligently DESIGNED by a SUPERNATURAL entity".


      Charles P: It is OK to disagree with the conclusions of James A Shapiro
      and other science writers. If you believe that Dr. Shapiro is not correct
      in his conclusions, then please provide us with scientific evidence that
      contradicts The Nine Basis Principles Of Natural Genetic Engineering.

      Stewart: I disagree which is OK. I have given you scientific reasons for my disagreement. This I submit as evidence, (the scientific kind). The points that I didn't answer are points I'm willing to accept tentatively on the basis that the language used allows scope for interpretation.


      ..
      --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
      >
      > Kamran: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29863 Living
      > things are not designed to evolve. I have posted many times on how it is
      > literally impossible for even the Creator to design an evolvable "living
      > thing."
      >
      > Stewart: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29840 James A
      > Shapiro doesn't believe that cells were designed.
      >
      > Stewart: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29820 I find
      > this very difficult to believe. If I cut my finger it will heal, this
      > doesn't require intelligence in my skin cells. Hack at a tree and
      > it'll produce sap to seal the wound, but neither trees nor their cells need
      > to be intelligent or sentient to achieve this.
      >
      > ********************************************************************************
      >
      > James A Shapiro: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29863
      > (The first 2 or 9 basic principles).
      >
      > 1 Living cells and organisms are cognitive (sentient) entities that act and
      > interact purposefully to ensure survival, growth, and proliferation. They
      > possess corresponding sensory, communication, information-processing, and
      > decision-making capabilities.
      >
      > 2 Cells are built to evolve; they have the ability to alter
      > their hereditary characteristics rapidly through well-described
      > natural genetic engineering and epigenetic processes as well as by cell
      > mergers.
      >
      > Charles P: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29246 The
      > nine basic principles of natural genetic engineering are available for
      > scrutiny by everyone. This 21st Century version of The Theory of Evolution
      > includes 1,162 references that provide new information that should be
      > considered by everyone.
      >
      > Charles P: It is OK to disagree with the conclusions of James A Shapiro
      > and other science writers. If you believe that Dr. Shapiro is not correct
      > in his conclusions, then please provide us with scientific evidence that
      > contradicts The Nine Basis Principles Of Natural Genetic Engineering.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Charles Palm
      Tia Ghose: http://www.livescience.com/25190-genetic-roots-vertebrate-intelligence.html Cognitive Big Bang Discovered in Tiny Sea Worm. Several brainy
      Message 38 of 38 , Dec 5, 2012
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        Tia Ghose:
        http://www.livescience.com/25190-genetic-roots-vertebrate-intelligence.html
        'Cognitive Big Bang' Discovered in Tiny Sea Worm. Several "brainy"
        genes
        that were duplicated in a tiny sea creature nearly 550 million years ago
        may have led to the massive expansion in intelligence in vertebrate
        species, two new studies have found.

        James A Shapiro: References #40, #41: Life requires cognition at all
        levels.

        James A Shapiro: References #93 - #95: We can think of this two-level
        proofreading process as equivalent to a quality-control system in human
        manufacturing. Like human quality-control systems, it is based on
        surveillance and correction (cognitive processes) rather than mechanical
        precision. The multistep nature of proofreading is typical of many control
        processes in cells,
        where final precision is achieved by a sequence of two or more interactions
        that are each themselves inherently less precise. In this regard, the most
        applicable cybernetic models are fuzzy logic control systems. In such
        systems, accurate regulation occurs by overlaying multiple imprecise
        (“fuzzy”) feedback controls arranged so that each successive event results
        in greater precision.

        James A Shapiro: In other words, we have numerous precise molecular
        descriptions of cell cognition, which range all the way from bacterial
        nutrition to mammalian cell biology and development. The cognitive,
        informatic view of how living cells operate and utilize their genomes is
        radically different from the genetic determinism perspective articulated
        most succinctly, in the
        last century, by Francis Crick’s famous “Central Dogma of Molecular
        Biology.” So it is appropriate to direct our attention to evaluating the
        validity of Crick’s formulation in light of 21st Century knowledge.

        James A Shapiro: A shift from thinking about gradual selection of
        localized random changes to sudden genome restructuring by sensory
        network-influenced cell systems is a major conceptual change. It replaces
        the “invisible hands” of geological time and natural selection with
        cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification. The
        emphasis is systemic rather than atomistic and information-based rather
        than stochastic.

        Stochastic: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stochastic Involving chance
        or probability.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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