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Re: [OriginsTalk] Living things are designed to evolve. (mission impossible)

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  • Kamran
      ________________________________ From: Charles Palm To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 6:27 AM
    Message 1 of 38 , Oct 20, 2012
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      From: Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...>
      To: OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 6:27 AM
      Subject: [OriginsTalk] Living things are designed to evolve.

      James A Shapiro:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29246%c2%a0 Cells
      are built to evolve; they have the ability to alter their hereditary
      characteristics rapidly through well-described natural genetic engineering
      and epigenetic processes as well as by cell mergers.

      Charles P:  James A Shapiro is an evolutionist.


      Charles P:  Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem teaches us that the
      "recognizable code" can't explain itself without referring to something
      outside the circle -- something we have to assume but can't prove.  Codes
      are not created by disorder nor disorganization nor random processes.

      Code:  http://www.thefreedictionary.com/code%c2%a0 A system of symbols and rules
      used to represent instructions to a computer; a computer program.  Genetics
      The genetic code.

      Genetic code:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code%c2%a0 The genetic code
      is the set of rules by which information encoded in genetic material (DNA
      or mRNA sequences) is translated into proteins (amino acid sequences) by
      living cells.

      There are 4³ = 64 different codon combinations possible with a triplet
      codon of three nucleotides; all 64 codons are assigned to either an amino
      acid or a stop signal. If, for example, an RNA sequence UUUAAACCC is
      considered and the reading frame starts with the first U (by convention, 5'
      to 3'), there are three codons, namely, UUU, AAA, and CCC, each of which
      specifies one amino acid. Therefore, this 9 base RNA sequence will be
      translated into an amino acid sequence that is three amino acids long.

      Charles P:  The protein created by this purposeful design would begin in
      this example with the sequence: "phenylalanine-lysine- proline" when the
      molecular biologists read the RNA sequence in the direction 5' to 3'.  Here
      are some more DNA digital code information requirements that could not
      possibly have originated by random processes:

      1  The DNA double helix is made up of two phosphate-deoxyribose backbones
      that are "the hardware" for that genome.

      2  The information is not contained in the "hardware" chemical bonds of
      each phosphate-deoxyribose backbone.  The information is in the "software"
      hydrogen bonds.  There must exist a perfect "electromagnetic attractive
      interaction of a hydrogen atom and an electronegative atom, such as
      nitrogen, oxygen or fluorine, that comes from another molecule or chemical
      group. It is not a true chemical bond".  Without the "software" hydrogen
      bonds the two phosphate-deoxyribose backbones would not come together to
      form the double helix.  The translation of the information depends on the
      "software" hydrogen bonds.


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DNA_chemical_structure.svg%c2%a0 (The
      "software" hydrogen bonds are between the two "hardware" backbones.  The
      backbone on the left in this diagram is translated from 5' to 3' (top to
      bottom in this example).  The backbone on the right is translated 5' to 3'
      (bottom to top in this example.  The two "hardware" phosphate-deoxyribose
      backbones can only assemble themselves precisely this way -- never

      3  The RNA sequence of UUU-AAA-CCC in this example are not
      They only represent phenylalanine-lysine- proline.  This is one of the
      reasons "why" DNA is a digital code that produces information and this is
      "how" cells translate the information.

      4  The phenylalanine-lysine-proline part of the newly created protein in
      this example is produced on both backbones.

      5  The phenylalanine-lysine-proline found in the newly created protein are
      "left handed", not a racemic mixture.  (chirality).  The phenylalanine is
      "left handed", the lysine is "left handed", and the proline is "left

      6  Scientists can cause chemical reactions to occur in the laboratory with
      non-living molecules to produce amino acids.  The non-living molecules
      always result in a racemic mixture of "left handed and right handed" amino
      acids.  Only living things can produce "left-handed" amino acids naturally.
      The DNA digital code information requires it to be this way.  This can't
      happen by random processes.






      Charles P:  All non-living things can be adequately described by the laws
      of physics: "energy + matter".

      Charles P:  All living things can't be adequately described by the laws of
      physics alone.  To be adequately described, all living things must be
      described by: "energy + matter + information".  Biology is an information

      Leroy Hood:
      http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/abs/nature01410.html%c2%a0 The
      discovery of the structure of DNA transformed biology profoundly,
      catalysing the sequencing of the human genome and engendering a new view of
      biology as an information science. Two features of DNA structure account
      for much of its remarkable impact on science: its digital nature and its
      complementarity, whereby one strand of the helix binds perfectly with its
      partner. DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode
      proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory
      networks that specify the behaviour of the genes.

      James A Shapiro:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OriginsTalk/message/29246%c2%a0 Cells
      are built to evolve; they have the ability to alter their hereditary
      characteristics rapidly through well-described natural genetic engineering
      and epigenetic processes as well as by cell mergers.

      Charles P:  My purpose for giving this example of technical stuff is to
      assure the average readers on Origins Talk that living things are designed
      to evolve.  None of this evolution could have possibly occurred by random
      processes.  Molecular biologists and the average reader can easily
      recognize the design in these processes.  We know nothing from science
      about what is outside the circle.

      Kamran:  I am sorry but for all the insinuations you make, you really need to take responsibility for what you post here and defend your postings rather than abandon the defence in midcourse on grounds that you are a messenger. Living things are not desiged to evolve.  I have posted many times on how it is literally impossible for even the Creator to design an evolvable "living thing." To settle this once an for all, can you isolate any part of the above example according to which you or Mr. Shapiro believe living things are desigend to evolve???  This is a chance for you to elaborately explain why you have come to the conclusion that living things are designed to evolve, and then I will explain to you how they are not. Then ou can write back to Mr. Shapiro so that he can know that there are no ligitimate versions of "evolution." Of course don't bother with an reply to this if in the middle of the debate (or as you like, discussion) you are going to
      say that you are just a messenger and not in a position to firmly discuss the claims you make in person or as proxy. 

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Charles Palm
      Tia Ghose: http://www.livescience.com/25190-genetic-roots-vertebrate-intelligence.html Cognitive Big Bang Discovered in Tiny Sea Worm. Several brainy
      Message 38 of 38 , Dec 5, 2012
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        Tia Ghose:
        'Cognitive Big Bang' Discovered in Tiny Sea Worm. Several "brainy"
        that were duplicated in a tiny sea creature nearly 550 million years ago
        may have led to the massive expansion in intelligence in vertebrate
        species, two new studies have found.

        James A Shapiro: References #40, #41: Life requires cognition at all

        James A Shapiro: References #93 - #95: We can think of this two-level
        proofreading process as equivalent to a quality-control system in human
        manufacturing. Like human quality-control systems, it is based on
        surveillance and correction (cognitive processes) rather than mechanical
        precision. The multistep nature of proofreading is typical of many control
        processes in cells,
        where final precision is achieved by a sequence of two or more interactions
        that are each themselves inherently less precise. In this regard, the most
        applicable cybernetic models are fuzzy logic control systems. In such
        systems, accurate regulation occurs by overlaying multiple imprecise
        (“fuzzy”) feedback controls arranged so that each successive event results
        in greater precision.

        James A Shapiro: In other words, we have numerous precise molecular
        descriptions of cell cognition, which range all the way from bacterial
        nutrition to mammalian cell biology and development. The cognitive,
        informatic view of how living cells operate and utilize their genomes is
        radically different from the genetic determinism perspective articulated
        most succinctly, in the
        last century, by Francis Crick’s famous “Central Dogma of Molecular
        Biology.” So it is appropriate to direct our attention to evaluating the
        validity of Crick’s formulation in light of 21st Century knowledge.

        James A Shapiro: A shift from thinking about gradual selection of
        localized random changes to sudden genome restructuring by sensory
        network-influenced cell systems is a major conceptual change. It replaces
        the “invisible hands” of geological time and natural selection with
        cognitive networks and cellular functions for self-modification. The
        emphasis is systemic rather than atomistic and information-based rather
        than stochastic.

        Stochastic: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stochastic Involving chance
        or probability.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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