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Re: What does evolution theory teach about Anatomical Homology?

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  • gluadys
    ... That is correct. Cousins of course, come in varying degrees. There are near cousins and more distant cousins. If the similarities between you and
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 31, 2011
      --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...> wrote:
      >
      > NCSE criticizes Explore Evolution: http://ncse.com/book/export/html/863
      > 1. "Observation: Bats, seals, and birds are tetrapods (have four limbs) and
      > the particular bones in their limbs share many of the same traits.
      > 2. Hypothesis: Bats, seals, and birds share a common ancestor.
      > 3. Observation: Bats share more limb traits with seals than they do with
      > birds. The limb traits that bats share with birds are the same traits that
      > seals share with birds.
      > 4. Hypothesis: The common ancestor of bats and seals is more recent than the
      > most recent common ancestor of bats, seals, and birds".
      >
      > Charles P criticizes NCSE: http://tolweb.org/Hominidae/16299
      > 1. Observation: Charles, Cousin Jack, and Cousin Linda are of the Hominidae
      > group and the particular bones in their bodies share many of the same
      > traits.
      > 2. Hypothesis: Charles, Cousin Jack, Cousin Linda share a common ancestor.
      > 3. Observation: Charles shares more body traits with Cousin Jack than he
      > does with Cousin Linda. The body traits that Charles shares with Cousin
      > Linda are the same traits that Cousin Jack shares with Cousin Linda.
      > 4. Hypothesis: The common ancestor of Charles and Cousin Jack is more
      > recent than the most recent common ancestor of Charles, Cousin Jack, and
      > Cousin Linda.
      >
      >
      > Charles P: That logic would have me to conclude that I and my Cousin Jack
      > have a more recent common ancestor than the common ancestor of myself,
      > Cousin Jack, and Cousin Linda.
      >

      That is correct. "Cousins" of course, come in varying degrees. There are near cousins and more distant cousins.

      If the similarities between you and Cousin Jack are greater than those between Cousin Jack and Cousin Linda and whatever you share with Cousin Linda, you also share with Cousin Jack, the appropriate conclusion is that Cousin Jack is a near cousin (perhaps a first cousin, the child of one of your parent's siblings) and that Cousin Linda is a more distant cousin (perhaps a second cousin, the grandchild of one of your grandparent's siblings.)


      If, as you may have pre-supposed, Cousin Jack and Cousin Linda are siblings, the fact that Cousin Jack is more like you than Cousin Linda suggests that he is a closer relative than a cousin. There may be a skeleton in the family closet; perhaps he is actually a half-sibling to you but the truth has not come out yet.
    • D R Lindberg
      ... http://ncse.com/book/export/html/863 ... limbs) and ... with ... that ... than the ... Hominidae ... ancestor. ... he ... Cousin ... and ... upon the ...
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 1, 2011
        --- In OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com, Charles Palm <palmcharlesUU@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > NCSE criticizes Explore Evolution:
        http://ncse.com/book/export/html/863
        > 1. "Observation: Bats, seals, and birds are tetrapods (have four
        limbs) and
        > the particular bones in their limbs share many of the same traits.
        > 2. Hypothesis: Bats, seals, and birds share a common ancestor.
        > 3. Observation: Bats share more limb traits with seals than they do
        with
        > birds. The limb traits that bats share with birds are the same traits
        that
        > seals share with birds.
        > 4. Hypothesis: The common ancestor of bats and seals is more recent
        than the
        > most recent common ancestor of bats, seals, and birds".
        >
        > Charles P criticizes NCSE: http://tolweb.org/Hominidae/16299
        > 1. Observation: Charles, Cousin Jack, and Cousin Linda are of the
        Hominidae
        > group and the particular bones in their bodies share many of the same
        > traits.
        > 2. Hypothesis: Charles, Cousin Jack, Cousin Linda share a common
        ancestor.
        > 3. Observation: Charles shares more body traits with Cousin Jack than
        he
        > does with Cousin Linda. The body traits that Charles shares with
        Cousin
        > Linda are the same traits that Cousin Jack shares with Cousin Linda.
        > 4. Hypothesis: The common ancestor of Charles and Cousin Jack is more
        > recent than the most recent common ancestor of Charles, Cousin Jack,
        and
        > Cousin Linda.
        >
        > Charles P: The three organisms were placed in the same group based
        upon the
        > "assumption" that all three share a common ancestor.

        False. Bats, seals and birds were placed in the same group "animals"
        long before (millennia before) anyone had any concept of common
        ancestry.

        > Scientists observed
        > that they have many homologous traits in common. The scientists
        formed a
        > hypothesis stating that the organisms share a common ancestor. The
        > scientists observed that two of the organisms share more common traits
        than
        > they do with the third organism. The scientists formed a hypothesis
        that
        > the first two organisms share a more recent common ancestor than the
        most
        > common ancestor of all three organisms.
        >
        > Charles P: That logic would have me to conclude that I and my Cousin
        Jack
        > have a more recent common ancestor than the common ancestor of myself,
        > Cousin Jack, and Cousin Linda.
        >
        > Charles P: The common ancestry logic seems reasonable if one
        "believes" in
        > the theory of evolution. The common ancestry logic does not seem
        reasonable
        > if one uses physical DNA evidence to determine ancestry.
        >
        False. With few exceptions, the DNA evidence confirms previously made
        hypotheses of ancestry. One exception is that DNA shows that, contrary
        to expectations, chimpanzees are closer to humans than to gorillas. But
        it still shows that all three are related.


        > Charles P: The NCSE criticizes the book Explore Evolution. Does the
        logic
        > tell us that the NCSE is superior to Explore Evolution in describing
        the
        > diversity of life?
        >
        Could be. We would need more evidence to reach any conclusion.

        Cheers!






        Okrent's Law:

        "The pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something
        is true,"

        - Daniel Okrent




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Charles Palm
        Charles P: That logic would have me to conclude that I and my Cousin Jack have a more recent common ancestor than the common ancestor of myself, Cousin Jack,
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 2, 2011
          Charles P: That logic would have me to conclude that I and my Cousin
          Jack have a more recent common ancestor than the common ancestor of
          myself, Cousin Jack, and Cousin Linda.

          Gluadys: That is correct. "Cousins" of course, come in varying degrees.

          Charles P: You conclude "That is correct" because you assume that we are
          related. However, Cousin Jack and I do not have a more recent common
          ancestor than the common ancestor of myself, Cousin Jack, and Cousin
          Linda. One fallacy in the logic is that to get the "right" answer,
          scientists must assume that there is a common ancestor. Another fallacy in
          the logic is to assume "looking more alike" means "more closely related". A
          third fallacy is to reach a conclusion before having physical DNA evidence.

          D R Lindberg: One exception is that DNA shows that, contrary to
          expectations, chimpanzees are closer to humans than to gorillas. But it
          still shows that all three are related.

          Charles P: http://tolweb.org/Hominidae/16299 If the tree of life drawing
          is correct, then part of your statement is not true. Can you guess which
          part is not true?


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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