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The Otter Editable Database

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  • Archie
    I have read the posts concerning the editable database on the Otter website. A couple of comments I think that we have to take a cool, reasoned approach to the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 12, 2006
      I have read the posts concerning the editable database on the Otter
      website.

      A couple of comments

      I think that we have to take a cool, reasoned approach to the
      issue. No sense flying off at the handle and saying things that may
      be regretted down the road when the whole story is known (if there
      is a whole story).

      The Otter database contains a lot more info than just the series,
      dates and ep titles and numbers. It also has the ability to display
      the genre of the show, the network and the country of origin. None
      of these fields are easily editable in Otter - ie one cannot add a
      code to the "log".txt file to show the network. One has to go into
      Otter and edit each series individually.

      The on-line editable database has a way to do this - more easily, I
      think, than doing it in Otter. In addition, the online database has
      a field for series description - something that we have been asking
      for. So maybe restricting the editing of the online db to just these
      types of data may be a way to protect the integrity of the db while
      allowing for these currently blank fields (for the most part) to be
      populated.

      I recognize and fully agree that allowing anyone and everyone to
      edit the 'core' information of the database is asking for trouble.
      We need to assure quality control over the changes made to the log
      info. We have this now - to a degree. A member of OTRR will spot
      an error or a correction, let the group and Jim know and Jim makes
      the change. The change must pass at least one level of review by a
      seasoned and knowledgeable 'gatekeeper'. Allowing anyone to edit
      the online database does not assure a quality review of the change.

      I think that we need to work with Otter Author - not alienate him.
      It is his program and has been pointed out here, has been in use in
      the OTR community for many years (when I first used it, it was a DOS
      based program) and certainly long before we began our work to
      imrpove the quality and breadth of info contained in the logs.

      Archie
    • Jim Beshires
      ... display ... None ... Hey Archie, I think everyone will agree that I have been one of the biggest supporters of Otter, if not the biggest. I have always
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 12, 2006
        --- In Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com, "Archie" <y_know_archie@h...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > The Otter database contains a lot more info than just the series,
        > dates and ep titles and numbers. It also has the ability to
        display
        > the genre of the show, the network and the country of origin.
        None
        > of these fields are easily editable in Otter


        Hey Archie,

        I think everyone will agree that I have been one of the biggest
        supporters of Otter, if not the biggest. I have always stood up for
        and stood by the program and its author. But I'm sorry, I'm not
        pleased at all with his attitude toward us now.

        I don't think that the actual database contains that information.
        All the database contains are text files, which are the series,
        dates, ep titles, and numbers. Nothing else is contained in the
        database. Those other areas are found somewhere else in the program.

        What really bothers me is his callous concern for those of us who've
        worked long and hard to correct those series and create new logs.
        I've attempted to correspond with this guy dozens of times and I can
        only recall one response to any of my e-mails. He has chosen to piss
        off the very group of people who most use the program.

        He may have created the actual framwork, but we provided 99% of the
        information there. Without that the program is worthless. I think
        you can agree with that. The series text logs are the meat and
        potatoes. Its our hard work and reputation that is at stake here.
        The database as he intends it now will be totally worthless. There
        will be no quality control by responsible people. Some few people
        may have used his program since it was DOS based, I did, but 99.99%
        of those using it now do so because of the OTTR group and its
        promotion of the program. It would have been a footnote in otr
        history by now, due to his long absences and refusals to communicate
        with his supporters. The program is so closely associated with us
        now that our reputation is at stake.

        I think that since his re-birth, he's realized that a lot of people
        are now using the program, and he thinks that he dosn't need us now,
        that he can depend on 'users' to continue improving the database.
        Personally I think hes jealous of the success we've had.

        What's going to happen the first time someone buys a collection from
        E-Bay, and thinks 'oh, I have 47 new episodes in the xyz series that
        don't show up in Otter' and goes up there and puts them in, not
        realizing that they are just dupes under different titles. Well,
        the database is now corrupted. It will be utter madness from that
        point on.

        I did not spend 100s of hours day after day, sitting here in front
        of this computer working on logs simply for him to take that and put
        it up on a website and give no regard to this group for its feelings
        over the issue. Its his choice to do with his program as he wishes,
        but I think that if he is any kind of man that he will not use the
        text logs that this group has created. If he wants to be honest and
        above board, he should revert to the database of 2002, which
        contained about 400+ series. If you remember, they were so full of
        errors and mistakes that it took us months to clean it up.

        I trust that the majority of serious collectors will stay with this
        group and continue to use our database. There will continue to be
        the quality controls in place and we will all be on the same page.

        Unless he continues to take the logs we produce and import them into
        his database, it will be woefully full of gross errors in a short
        while.

        We do have some alternatives. Several people have either already
        developed a program that is equal to or superior to Otter, and at
        least two others are bringing theirs to near completion. I've put
        out some feelers to these people. Hopefully, if the wise otter
        chooses to go his own way, we'll have other choices.

        Since you know him on a personal level, I urge you to speak to him
        and point out the problems he is facing and see if you can get him
        to mend fences with this group. I've e-mailed him privately(again)
        and asked for him to at least attempt to work with us in some sort
        of mutually benefical way.
        jimb
      • Lou Shepherd
        _____ From: Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Beshires Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:43 PM To:
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 12, 2006
           


          From: Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Beshires
          Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:43 PM
          To: Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Otter-Project] Re: The Otter Editable Database

          --- In Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com, "Archie" <y_know_archie@h...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > The Otter
          database contains a lot more info than just the series,
          > dates and ep
          titles and numbers.  It also has the ability to
          display
          > the
          genre of the show, the network and the country of origin. 
          None
          > of these fields are easily editable in Otter


          Hey Archie,

          I think everyone will agree that I have been one of the biggest
          supporters of Otter, if not the biggest.  I have always stood up for
          and stood by the program and its author.  But I'm sorry, I'm not
          pleased at all with his attitude toward us now.

          I don't think that the actual database contains that information. 
          All the database contains are text files, which are the series,
          dates, ep titles, and numbers.  Nothing else is contained in the
          database.  Those other areas are found somewhere else in the program.

          What really bothers me is his callous concern for those of us who've
          worked long and hard to correct those series and create new logs. 
          I've attempted to correspond with this guy dozens of times and I can
          only recall one response to any of my e-mails. He has chosen to piss
          off the very group of people who most use the program.

          He may have created the actual framwork, but we provided 99% of the
          information there.  Without that the program is worthless.  I think
          you can agree with that.  The series text logs are the meat and
          potatoes. Its our hard work and reputation that is at stake here.
          The database as he intends it now will be totally worthless. There
          will be no quality control by responsible people. Some few people
          may have used his program since it was DOS based, I did, but 99.99%
          of those using it now do so because of the OTTR group and its
          promotion of the program.  It would have been a footnote in otr
          history by now, due to his long absences and refusals to communicate
          with his supporters.  The program is so closely associated with us
          now that our reputation is at stake. 

          I think that since his re-birth, he's realized that a lot of people
          are now using the program, and he thinks that he dosn't need us now,
          that he can depend on 'users' to continue improving the database.
          Personally I think hes jealous of the success we've had.

          What's going to happen the first time someone buys a collection from
          E-Bay, and thinks 'oh, I have 47 new episodes in the xyz series that
          don't show up in Otter' and goes up there and puts them in, not
          realizing that they are just dupes under different titles.  Well,
          the database is now corrupted. It will be utter madness from that
          point on.

          I did not spend 100s of hours day after day, sitting here in front
          of this computer working on logs simply for him to take that and put
          it up on a website and give no regard to this group for its feelings
          over the issue.  Its his choice to do with his program as he wishes,
          but I think that if he is any kind of man that he will not use the
          text logs that this group has created.  If he wants to be honest and
          above board, he should revert to the database of 2002, which
          contained about 400+ series.  If you remember, they were so full of
          errors and mistakes that it took us months to clean it up.

          I trust that the majority of serious collectors will stay with this
          group and continue to use our database.  There will continue to be
          the quality controls in place and we will all be on the same page.

          Unless he continues to take the logs we produce and import them into
          his database, it will be woefully full of gross errors in a short
          while.

          We do have some alternatives.  Several people have either already
          developed a program that is equal to or superior to Otter, and at
          least two others are bringing theirs to near completion.  I've put
          out some feelers to these people.  Hopefully, if the wise otter
          chooses to go his own way, we'll have other choices.

          Since you know him on a personal level, I urge you to speak to him
          and point out the problems he is facing and see if you can get him
          to mend fences with this group.  I've e-mailed him privately(again)
          and asked for him to at least attempt to work with us in some sort
          of mutually benefical way.
          jimb




        • Lou Shepherd
          I am a software developer who works with clients and other programmers all day long. One thing for sure -- the data is not the property of the developer. Even
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 12, 2006
            I am a software developer who works with clients and other programmers all day long. One thing for sure -- the data is not the property of the developer.
             
            Even though I may write the program, the customer's data is the customer's, not mine. This guy can take his program and go home if he wants to since it's his, but not the data that has been added since it was released.
             
            Also the personality of Otter's author should not be used as an excuse for inappropriate behavior. If he wants to act like an immature child that's his perogative, but it is not a general characteristic of software developers. 
             
            I have seen the Otter software and tried it out a little, and I don't really see that it's anything very special. The functionality is pretty basic and could be duplicated or improved fairly easily by a developer that writes in C, C#, C++ or a similar language. And there are plenty of those folks out there.
             
            The idea of the general public being able to modify the data at will is not a very good idea. The concept of "wiki's" is pretty prevalent on the web, but for applications like this one, it would certainly render the data useless as soon as someone messed with it.
             
            Some may think it admirable for this person to pirate the data and to make excuses for his dysfunctional personality etc, but it seems to me it falls more in the line of immoral or illegal. Not to mention fattening.
             
            Well, thats my $.02 worth.
             
            Lou Shepherd
             
                


            From: Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Beshires
            Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:43 PM
            To: Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Otter-Project] Re: The Otter Editable Database

            --- In Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com, "Archie" <y_know_archie@h...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > The Otter
            database contains a lot more info than just the series,
            > dates and ep
            titles and numbers.  It also has the ability to
            display
            > the
            genre of the show, the network and the country of origin. 
            None
            > of these fields are easily editable in Otter


            Hey Archie,

            I think everyone will agree that I have been one of the biggest
            supporters of Otter, if not the biggest.  I have always stood up for
            and stood by the program and its author.  But I'm sorry, I'm not
            pleased at all with his attitude toward us now.

            I don't think that the actual database contains that information. 
            All the database contains are text files, which are the series,
            dates, ep titles, and numbers.  Nothing else is contained in the
            database.  Those other areas are found somewhere else in the program.

            What really bothers me is his callous concern for those of us who've
            worked long and hard to correct those series and create new logs. 
            I've attempted to correspond with this guy dozens of times and I can
            only recall one response to any of my e-mails. He has chosen to piss
            off the very group of people who most use the program.

            He may have created the actual framwork, but we provided 99% of the
            information there.  Without that the program is worthless.  I think
            you can agree with that.  The series text logs are the meat and
            potatoes. Its our hard work and reputation that is at stake here.
            The database as he intends it now will be totally worthless. There
            will be no quality control by responsible people. Some few people
            may have used his program since it was DOS based, I did, but 99.99%
            of those using it now do so because of the OTTR group and its
            promotion of the program.  It would have been a footnote in otr
            history by now, due to his long absences and refusals to communicate
            with his supporters.  The program is so closely associated with us
            now that our reputation is at stake. 

            I think that since his re-birth, he's realized that a lot of people
            are now using the program, and he thinks that he dosn't need us now,
            that he can depend on 'users' to continue improving the database.
            Personally I think hes jealous of the success we've had.

            What's going to happen the first time someone buys a collection from
            E-Bay, and thinks 'oh, I have 47 new episodes in the xyz series that
            don't show up in Otter' and goes up there and puts them in, not
            realizing that they are just dupes under different titles.  Well,
            the database is now corrupted. It will be utter madness from that
            point on.

            I did not spend 100s of hours day after day, sitting here in front
            of this computer working on logs simply for him to take that and put
            it up on a website and give no regard to this group for its feelings
            over the issue.  Its his choice to do with his program as he wishes,
            but I think that if he is any kind of man that he will not use the
            text logs that this group has created.  If he wants to be honest and
            above board, he should revert to the database of 2002, which
            contained about 400+ series.  If you remember, they were so full of
            errors and mistakes that it took us months to clean it up.

            I trust that the majority of serious collectors will stay with this
            group and continue to use our database.  There will continue to be
            the quality controls in place and we will all be on the same page.

            Unless he continues to take the logs we produce and import them into
            his database, it will be woefully full of gross errors in a short
            while.

            We do have some alternatives.  Several people have either already
            developed a program that is equal to or superior to Otter, and at
            least two others are bringing theirs to near completion.  I've put
            out some feelers to these people.  Hopefully, if the wise otter
            chooses to go his own way, we'll have other choices.

            Since you know him on a personal level, I urge you to speak to him
            and point out the problems he is facing and see if you can get him
            to mend fences with this group.  I've e-mailed him privately(again)
            and asked for him to at least attempt to work with us in some sort
            of mutually benefical way.
            jimb




          • chris johnson
            This would be true if someone had licensed the program. But, the author wrote the program and the initial database. Any database that you put in, by
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 12, 2006
              This would be true if someone had licensed the program. But, the author wrote the program and the initial database. Any database that you put in, by definition, is derivative. Copyright law says that derivative works require explicit agreement to pass from the control of the creator. "Explicit agreement" is, by law, written agreement. If he had not included a database, there are other tests as to who would own the database.

              If you check the license you're providing your client, you will notice a clause (or 40) detailing who owns the data, including any sample dbs provided. If you're co-developing, your partnership agreement will detail who owns databases.

              Chris

              --- "Lou Shepherd" <lshepher@...> wrote:

              I am a software developer who works with clients and other
              programmers all day long. One thing for sure -- the data is not
              the property of the developer.



              Even though I may write the program, the customer's data is the
              customer's, not mine. This guy can take his program and go home
              if he wants to since it's his, but not the data that has been
              added since it was released.
            • Jim W.
              As a recent OTTER user and group member, the primary thing that made the tool appealing to me was the scrubbed data that you guys supply for it. I felt more
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 12, 2006
                As a recent OTTER user and group member, the primary thing that made
                the tool appealing to me was the scrubbed data that you guys supply
                for it. I felt more confident using the tool to match my files than I
                would something freely editable off the Internet. It's one thing to
                just browse show lists, but when matching against your files to
                validate them, you'll want something robust.

                I was using PERL script and an Access database, but OTTER with its
                accurate database helped me find many mislabeled shows in my
                collection. The current OTTER tool is from 7/2003, and I've had some
                pretty frequent crashes, but have heard nothing in reply to my
                postings. If there's no intent on improving it, I wish he'd release
                it to public domain.

                BTW. I wrote a small PERL script to import an exported OTTER database
                into MS Access, if anyone's interested.

                My $.02
              • Archie
                ... series, ... program. ... Jim Do me a favour on your install of Otter 9which is the basis of the daily updated database). Open Otter and select 10-2-4 Ranch
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 13, 2006
                  --- In Otter-Project@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Beshires"
                  <beshiresjim@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The Otter database contains a lot more info than just the
                  series,
                  > > dates and ep titles and numbers. It also has the ability to
                  > display
                  > > the genre of the show, the network and the country of origin.
                  > None
                  > > of these fields are easily editable in Otter
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey Archie,
                  >
                  >
                  > I don't think that the actual database contains that information.
                  > All the database contains are text files, which are the series,
                  > dates, ep titles, and numbers. Nothing else is contained in the
                  > database. Those other areas are found somewhere else in the
                  program.
                  >


                  Jim

                  Do me a favour on your install of Otter 9which is the basis of the
                  daily updated database).

                  Open Otter and select 10-2-4 Ranch Time. Then go to "Series" and
                  select 'Set Genre' (set to music) and select 'Set Country and
                  Network' and set them to USA and Syndicated.

                  When the next daily update of the databse is done, let's see if this
                  changed information is captured in the revised DB.

                  Thanks.

                  Archie
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