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Wheels centres?

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  • Mark K
    G day group, Having ordered driving wheels for my loco project, the subject of wheels centres came to my consideration. I think I m getting injection molded
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 19 6:36 AM
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      G'day group,
      Having ordered driving wheels for my loco project, the subject of wheels
      centres came to my consideration.
      I think I'm getting injection molded plastic centered wheels, for an inside
      frame steam loco with a distinctive spoke pattern. Is there any reason one
      material is better than another for wheel centres?
      The other affordable options are investment cast, then machined, brass-
      requiring an insulation layer; or laser cut styrene laminates machined true.
      Regards,
      Mark Kendrick
      Sydney Oz

      P.S. Roy Link Congrats on a great Issue 62 of the Review!
    • Frank Sharp
      Mark, I would forget any styrene containing polymer, long term it will not be oil resistant. The usual polymer used I think by Alan Gibson and Slaters is glass
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 19 7:59 AM
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        Mark,

        I would forget any styrene containing polymer, long term it will not be
        oil resistant. The usual polymer used I think by Alan Gibson and Slaters
        is glass filled nylon. Slaters I think mould into a rim. I'm not sure
        whether AG moulds and then fits the rim later, or moulds into the rim.
        I've had quite a few of AG's wheels where the rim has moved as I try to
        regauge it to 14mm. I also find that once I have moved the centre on the
        axle it is never quite as secure again. As a matter of course with AG
        wheels, I now derim them, clean of the moulding pip if it is still on
        the edge of the centre, Araldite the rim back onto the centre, gauge to
        suit 14mm and then put a thin turn of Araldite round the axle on the
        inside. I'm talking about wagon wheels, his driving wheels seem to be
        OK, but often I'm using 4mm wagon, coach or bogie wheels as driving
        wheels on NG. Once Araldited, though theoretically it doesn't really
        bond to nylon, they don't shift. Superglue also works, but if you don't
        get the centre right down into the rim before the glue sets you cannot
        do much about it, Araldite, especially the 24 hour stuff gives you time
        to get it right.

        The other options are brass or white metal castings, turned true with an
        insulating layer between wheel and tyre. Remember if you hub insulate,
        the con rods are live to the rails, and either the crankpin or cylinder
        block will need insulating. Has anyone tried insulating the cylinder
        blocks, live crankpins and picking up current from each cylinder block?

        Frank

        -----Original Message-----
        From: O-14@yahoogroups.com [mailto:O-14@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Mark K
        Sent: 19 July 2005 14:37
        To: O-14@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [O-14] Wheels centres?

        G'day group,
        Having ordered driving wheels for my loco project, the subject of wheels
        centres came to my consideration.
        I think I'm getting injection molded plastic centered wheels, for an
        inside
        frame steam loco with a distinctive spoke pattern. Is there any reason
        one
        material is better than another for wheel centres?
        The other affordable options are investment cast, then machined, brass-
        requiring an insulation layer; or laser cut styrene laminates machined
        true.
        Regards,
        Mark Kendrick
        Sydney Oz

        P.S. Roy Link Congrats on a great Issue 62 of the Review!



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      • Roy Link
        Dear Mark, I use polypropylene - this is an extremely stable plastic. It is oil and solvent resistant. It has sufficient flexibility to be made a good push
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 19 9:52 AM
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          Dear Mark,

          I use polypropylene - this is an extremely stable plastic. It is oil
          and solvent
          resistant. It has sufficient flexibility to be made a good 'push fit'
          into turned tyres
          and grip onto axles well.

          Its low viscosity at melt temperature means the mould is easily filled.

          Avoid polythene - it is dimensionally unstable and too flexible.

          Regards,

          Roy
        • Mark K
          Thanks Frank and Roy, I enquired about glass-filled nylon, unfortunately the factory making the wheels can only get it in white, but since the prototype had
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 20 4:36 AM
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            Thanks Frank and Roy,
            I enquired about glass-filled nylon, unfortunately the factory making the
            wheels can only get it in white, but since the prototype had red wheels
            anyway that shouldn't be a problem.
            You blokes have great information!
            Frank, I imagine that the method of current pickup you describe might not be
            as good as wipers on the wheels, as there is an extra moving mechanical
            joint to conduct across (rail to tyre+tyre to pickup vs rail to tyre+cranpin
            to rod+rod to cylinder). However, it sounds like a simple solution, a piece
            of PC board would be ideal insulation between cylinders and frame. If the
            whole frame sides were made from PC board, a simple scribed line would be
            enough to insulate each area of possible short circuit contact. And PC board
            can be much more rigid than brass or NiS.
            Regards,
            Mark
          • Geoff Baxter
            Hello, Another plastic formulation is Acetal, also known as polyacetal, polyoxymethylene (POM), or polyformaldehyde. Known also by the DuPont trade name
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 20 5:16 AM
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              Hello,

              Another plastic formulation is Acetal, also known as polyacetal,
              polyoxymethylene (POM), or polyformaldehyde. Known also by the DuPont
              trade name Delrin.

              It is a high performance engineering polymer well suited for wheel
              centres. It is most commonly available in black, which suits most
              applications. Because of its high strength, modulus, and resistance to
              impact and fatigue, it is used as a weight-saving metal replacement.

              A manufacturer of wheels that I know has been using this material for
              wheel centres for a long time now, with little complaint from the
              field. He even uses it for a 22mm steam loco driver with stainless
              steel tyres.

              Regards,
              Geoff
            • Martyn
              I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1 11.5 prototype narrow gauge mainline and would like to use finer-scale wheels/track than the standard peco
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 20, 2007
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                I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow
                gauge "mainline" and would like to use finer-scale wheels/track than
                the standard peco crazy track and OO wheels can offer.

                Track would be FB spiked (some) and bolted via angled plates to
                sleepers, and I would like to use real wood sleepers if possible, and
                to model around 30-40 lb per yard rail.

                Where would be a good supply of these items?

                Are there any templates/kits/jigs, perhaps based on On30 or O-16.5 that
                I could use to help build track to suit? Are there any agreed finescale
                O-14 standards to adhere to?

                regards,

                Martyn
              • Martin Field
                Martyn, Try to get a good hardwood for the sleepers. Cafe Primo coffee stirrers are good! Or use pear or apple and rip it to size on a little Microcraft
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 20, 2007
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                  Martyn, Try to get a good hardwood for the sleepers. Cafe Primo coffee stirrers are good! Or use pear or apple and rip it to size on a little Microcraft circular saw. I'm assuming you'll use 14mm gauge instead of the grossly oversize 16.5 Roy Link used to do templates, but I just draw it on the baseboard. I don't know what 30-40lb. rail measures, but measure some and divide by 43. In inches that'll give you the "Code" number to source from whatever scale you can find it. Spikes are available or glue the rail to the sleepers then add cosmetic spike heads, angle plates, etc.
                  Good luck, Martin


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Martyn <martyn@.....uk>
                  To: O-14@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, 20 October, 2007 4:14:05 PM
                  Subject: [O-14] Track Standards

                  I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow
                  gauge "mainline" and would like to use finer-scale wheels/track than
                  the standard peco crazy track and OO wheels can offer.

                  Track would be FB spiked (some) and bolted via angled plates to
                  sleepers, and I would like to use real wood sleepers if possible, and
                  to model around 30-40 lb per yard rail.

                  Where would be a good supply of these items?

                  Are there any templates/kits/ jigs, perhaps based on On30 or O-16.5 that
                  I could use to help build track to suit? Are there any agreed finescale
                  O-14 standards to adhere to?

                  regards,

                  Martyn





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                • Roy C Link
                  The 14mm gauge turnout templates are available as a download on the Group site, as are the standards. See John Clutterbuck s articles in NG&IRM REVIEW (three
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 20, 2007
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                    The 14mm gauge turnout templates are available as a download on the
                    Group site, as are the standards.

                    See John Clutterbuck's articles in NG&IRM REVIEW (three parts) for
                    building 14mm track and turnouts to 'mainline' standards - this
                    includes prototype information as well..

                    Roy C Link

                    www.narrowgaugeandindustrial.com
                  • james coldicott
                    Hi Martyn, a few thoughts on hand laid track on timber sleepers. Though we re in the UK my Dad and I have been building On3 layouts using handlaid track for
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 22, 2007
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                      Hi Martyn,

                      a few thoughts on hand laid track on timber sleepers. Though we're in the UK
                      my Dad and I have been building On3 layouts using handlaid track for the
                      last 20 years and more. The American way of doing things is to use a
                      'spiker' from Kadee (a modified staple gun that cuts the centre from a
                      staple and drives the remaining sides either side of the rail as spikes) and
                      sugar pine sleepers (ties). Sugar pine is a very soft wood and doesn't split
                      when the spikes are driven in. Sugar pine ties are available from Kappler (
                      www.kapplerusa.com ) in 2' gauge lengths but are 1/48 scale and American
                      profile so the faces are too narrow for 7mm scale 2' gauge. The 3' and
                      standard gauge ties have broader faces which scale out to approx 6" and 8"
                      in 7mm scale and are much more appropriate for 2' narrow gauge though the
                      length needs to be cut down. Unfortunately Kadee spikers are not in regular
                      production though second hand ones do come up on ebay. They aren't cheap but
                      once the sleepers are fixed you can set yards of track in an evening so are
                      a good investment if you are planning a large layout.

                      Personally despite having access to all this gear I use basswood (lime) for
                      sleepers when modelling in 7mm 2' gauge as you can get it in any size you
                      choose, it is close grained and takes weathering and stain well. (See the
                      kappler website above for basswood) The disadvantage is that, unlike sugar
                      pine, you need to predrill holes for spikes.

                      Hope this is of some value and have fun.

                      James

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                    • Martyn
                      ... I should have mentioned that this will be a model of the L&B, to go with the EDM/Gibson loco kit I ve just ordered. I ve also just ordered John s magazine
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 23, 2007
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                        --- In O-14@yahoogroups.com, "Martyn" <martyn@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow
                        > gauge "mainline"...

                        I should have mentioned that this will be a model of the L&B, to go
                        with the EDM/Gibson loco kit I've just ordered. I've also just ordered
                        John's magazine articles from Roy!

                        Looking back over the past few months, there has been quite a
                        discussion of L&B track construction - all very useful and some useful
                        ideas for me to aim for. Thanks for the advice you've offered.

                        One aspect of track I don't recall seeing mentioned (sorry if I'm
                        opening another can of worms) is that of fishplates. Are accurate
                        examples available, how can they be modelled, how are they fitted (I
                        can see some of you drilling holes in the track and bolting them on,
                        but that may be a bit too much for me! Are they robust enough to
                        maintain continuity without wiring drops at each join?

                        Regards to all,

                        Martyn
                      • Vincent Bradley
                        As to fishplates, most I have seen are cosmetic rather than functional. Most a glued on the sides of the rails at the appropriate interval while the rail is as
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 23, 2007
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                          As to fishplates, most I have seen are cosmetic rather than functional.
                          Most a glued on the sides of the rails at the appropriate interval while the
                          rail is as long as possible with a feeder directly attached to the bottom.
                          Fishplates are available in the states from Grant Line I believe or others.

                          Vincent Bradley - 1707

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: O-14@yahoogroups.com [mailto:O-14@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martyn
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:05 AM
                          To: O-14@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [O-14] Re: Track Standards - fishplates

                          --- In O-14@yahoogroups.com, "Martyn" <martyn@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow
                          > gauge "mainline"...

                          I should have mentioned that this will be a model of the L&B, to go
                          with the EDM/Gibson loco kit I've just ordered. I've also just ordered
                          John's magazine articles from Roy!

                          Looking back over the past few months, there has been quite a
                          discussion of L&B track construction - all very useful and some useful
                          ideas for me to aim for. Thanks for the advice you've offered.

                          One aspect of track I don't recall seeing mentioned (sorry if I'm
                          opening another can of worms) is that of fishplates. Are accurate
                          examples available, how can they be modelled, how are they fitted (I
                          can see some of you drilling holes in the track and bolting them on,
                          but that may be a bit too much for me! Are they robust enough to
                          maintain continuity without wiring drops at each join?

                          Regards to all,

                          Martyn





                          O-14 Photos area:
                          http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14/lst

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                        • David Hughes
                          Martyn, I was advised that Roy Link s fishplates are right for O14 L&B using IL-115 track, and as Vincent says they re cosmetic. David To:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 23, 2007
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                            Martyn,

                            I was advised that Roy Link's fishplates are right for O14 L&B using IL-115 track, and as Vincent says they're cosmetic.

                            David


                            To: O-14@yahoogroups.comFrom: martyn@...: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:05:25 +0000Subject: [O-14] Re: Track Standards - fishplates




                            --- In O-14@yahoogroups.com, "Martyn" <martyn@...> wrote:>> I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow > gauge "mainline"...I should have mentioned that this will be a model of the L&B, to go with the EDM/Gibson loco kit I've just ordered. I've also just ordered John's magazine articles from Roy! Looking back over the past few months, there has been quite a discussion of L&B track construction - all very useful and some useful ideas for me to aim for. Thanks for the advice you've offered.One aspect of track I don't recall seeing mentioned (sorry if I'm opening another can of worms) is that of fishplates. Are accurate examples available, how can they be modelled, how are they fitted (I can see some of you drilling holes in the track and bolting them on, but that may be a bit too much for me! Are they robust enough to maintain continuity without wiring drops at each join? Regards to all,Martyn






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                          • Richard McLeish
                            G day Martyn, I m a bit late coming in on this, but a few points which you may like to consider. As far I am aware, flatbottom rail as light as the sizes you
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 31, 2007
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                              G'day Martyn,

                              I'm a bit late coming in on this, but a few points which you may like to consider.

                              As far I am aware, flatbottom rail as light as the sizes you mention was not often used in conjunction with baseplates, angled ( I assume you mean canted) or otherwise. Spiking directly to the sleeper was the norm, often with the rail vertical, i.e. no adzing of the sleepers to provide cant.
                              If you are modelling a particular prototype, it's worth checking to see exactly what was done.

                              For 30lb rail or thereabouts, one of the Peco sections will probably suffice. For 40-45lb rail, there is nothing available AT PRESENT (but watch this space) that is anything like the correct profile that I am aware of, the usual problem being that if the height is right, the head and foot are both far too narrow.

                              Wooden sleepers suitably sized for 2' gauge in 7mm scale are not available AT PRESENT, but again, watch this space. Nothing stopping you making your own, or buying the closest you can get from one of the commercial suppliers across the pond, but these are usually scaled for 1/4" scale.

                              Standards: if you wish, there is no reason you cannot go to scale standards, perhaps using P4 or ScaleSeven recommendations, but the critical factor here will be the availability of suitable small wheelsets. I think one or two of the other small manufacturers are looking into this. Again, it depends on the prototype being modelled, some stuff is already available.

                              Hope this helps,

                              Regards,

                              Richard






                              > To: O-14@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: martyn@...
                              > Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:14:05 +0000
                              > Subject: [O-14] Track Standards
                              >
                              > I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow
                              > gauge "mainline" and would like to use finer-scale wheels/track than
                              > the standard peco crazy track and OO wheels can offer.
                              >
                              > Track would be FB spiked (some) and bolted via angled plates to
                              > sleepers, and I would like to use real wood sleepers if possible, and
                              > to model around 30-40 lb per yard rail.
                              >
                              > Where would be a good supply of these items?
                              >
                              > Are there any templates/kits/jigs, perhaps based on On30 or O-16.5 that
                              > I could use to help build track to suit? Are there any agreed finescale
                              > O-14 standards to adhere to?
                              >
                              > regards,
                              >
                              > Martyn
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > O-14 Photos area:
                              > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14/lst
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                            • David Hughes
                              Richard, The Lynton & Barnstaple used plates, as did Southern when they took it over, at least at rail ends (i.e. every 30ft). John Clutterbuck covered it in
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 31, 2007
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                                Richard, The Lynton & Barnstaple used plates, as did Southern when they took it over, at least at rail ends (i.e. every 30ft). John Clutterbuck covered it in the first of his articles on track building (in Roy Link's excellent Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling Review, Issues 63-65 2005/6). The only 'angle' I can see is that the clips are spiked diagonally rather than exactly opposite each other on the rail. David Janes is in the process of making some, I believe (hope, because I want some!).

                                David

                                To: o-14@yahoogroups.comFrom: karlgarinmodels@...: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:54:25 +0000Subject: RE: [O-14] Track Standards



                                G'day Martyn,I'm a bit late coming in on this, but a few points which you may like to consider.As far I am aware, flatbottom rail as light as the sizes you mention was not often used in conjunction with baseplates, angled ( I assume you mean canted) or otherwise. Spiking directly to the sleeper was the norm, often with the rail vertical, i.e. no adzing of the sleepers to provide cant.If you are modelling a particular prototype, it's worth checking to see exactly what was done.For 30lb rail or thereabouts, one of the Peco sections will probably suffice. For 40-45lb rail, there is nothing available AT PRESENT (but watch this space) that is anything like the correct profile that I am aware of, the usual problem being that if the height is right, the head and foot are both far too narrow.Wooden sleepers suitably sized for 2' gauge in 7mm scale are not available AT PRESENT, but again, watch this space. Nothing stopping you making your own, or buying the closest you can get from one of the commercial suppliers across the pond, but these are usually scaled for 1/4" scale.Standards: if you wish, there is no reason you cannot go to scale standards, perhaps using P4 or ScaleSeven recommendations, but the critical factor here will be the availability of suitable small wheelsets. I think one or two of the other small manufacturers are looking into this. Again, it depends on the prototype being modelled, some stuff is already available.Hope this helps,Regards,Richard> To: O-14@yahoogroups.com> From: martyn@...> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:14:05 +0000> Subject: [O-14] Track Standards>> I am planning a 7mm scale model of a British 1'11.5" prototype narrow> gauge "mainline" and would like to use finer-scale wheels/track than> the standard peco crazy track and OO wheels can offer.>> Track would be FB spiked (some) and bolted via angled plates to> sleepers, and I would like to use real wood sleepers if possible, and> to model around 30-40 lb per yard rail.>> Where would be a good supply of these items?>> Are there any templates/kits/jigs, perhaps based on On30 or O-16.5 that> I could use to help build track to suit? Are there any agreed finescale> O-14 standards to adhere to?>> regards,>> Martyn>>>> O-14 Photos area:> http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14/lst>> O-14 Files area:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14/files> Yahoo! Groups Links>> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14/>> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional>> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14/join> (Yahoo! ID required)>> To change settings via email:> mailto:O-14-digest@yahoogroups.com> mailto:O-14-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> O-14-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>__________________________________________________________Feel like a local wherever you go.http://www.backofmyhand.com






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                              • Richard McLeish
                                G day David, Thanks for the info. More grist to the mill! Any idea what size the sleepers were? Regards, Richard http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk [Non-text portions
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 31, 2007
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                                  G'day David,

                                  Thanks for the info. More grist to the mill! Any idea what size the sleepers were?

                                  Regards,

                                  Richard
                                  http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Hughes
                                  Hi Richard, I think they were standard sleepers cut in half and laid at 2ft 6in centres. I seem to recall some of the originals survived as steps in Chelfham.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 1, 2007
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                                    Hi Richard, I think they were standard sleepers cut in half and laid at 2ft 6in centres. I seem to recall some of the originals survived as steps in Chelfham. I'll have a browse through my Association mags and see what I find, but it could take me a few days so if any other L&B fans out there know off the top of their heads they might beat me to it.

                                    Cheers, David


                                    To: o-14@yahoogroups.comFrom: karlgarinmodels@...: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:52:51 +0000Subject: RE: [O-14] Track Standards



                                    G'day David,Thanks for the info. More grist to the mill! Any idea what size the sleepers were?Regards,Richardhttp://www.pimpmylive.co.uk[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                                  • Martyn
                                    Keith Vingoe of the L&BR Trust has provided the following: Quoting from Narrow Gauge Railways Two Feet and Under - page 20 The permanent way is laid with 40LB
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 2, 2007
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                                      Keith Vingoe of the L&BR Trust has provided the following:

                                      Quoting from Narrow Gauge Railways Two Feet and Under - page 20 "The
                                      permanent way is laid with 40LB steel rails spiked and dogged to
                                      sleepers of 9 x 4 1/2 inches section." "Particulars kindly supplied
                                      by Frank W Chanter the engineer of the line."

                                      Paul Gower, another L&B historian, has said that the L&B was laid
                                      with the very odd size of 41 1/4 lb/yd rail (just coincidentally
                                      20kg/m!) in 9m lengths, suggesting an intended export destination.

                                      Another post on the L&B discussion group suggests that sleepers were
                                      4ft 6ins in length x 10 ins x 5 ins. Spacing was 2 ft 6 ins
                                      at centres with a 2ft gap at the rail joints.

                                      I think for modelling purposes at least, there is enough information
                                      to allow a fair representation of the track. Thanks to all those who
                                      have contributed to answering my question. Now all I have to do is
                                      build it!

                                      regards,

                                      Martyn
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