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Re: [NewMobilityCafe] Info overload

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  • Richard Layman
    Eric, not everyone, including me, likes to go to websites for information.  We prefer push in this case email.   You should leave it as is.  The people
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 14, 2009
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      Eric, not everyone, including me, likes to go to websites for information.  We prefer "push" in this case email.
       
      You should leave it as is.  The people who think there is too much email will either change to a setting that collects individual emails into "grouped" emails providing all the email but seemingly less message traffic in their mailbox or they will unsubscribe.  (Note that people who tend to subscribe to lists this way don't write.  It is writers who prefer individual messages and who are more wont to respond.)
       
      In short, people who write/produce content consume Internet-based information differently from people who don't write.  Catering policies to people who don't produce info but merely consume it can be destructive.
       
      In my experience, every instance of email lists converting in the way you outlined, have eventually been destroyed as a result.  All the Project for Public Spaces lists--which were important (public spaces and public markets in particular)--are destroyed now.  (Eventually PPS even dumped the Internet forums because of lack of participation.)  And the old Internet Marketing e-list from the early 1990s.  Etc.

      As Richard Gere said to Lou Gossett in the film "Officer and a Gentleman,":
       
      "Don't you do it.  Don't.  I got nowhere else to go.  I got nothing else."
      Richard Layman
      DC

      --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Eric Britton <eric.britton@...> wrote:

      From: Eric Britton <eric.britton@...>
      Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Info overload
      To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 6:30 AM

      Dear all 681 members of the New Mobility Agenda/World Transport Forum, our common watering hole for sustainable transport since 1999.

       

      1.      Information Overload in the New Mobility Café
      I am afraid that the sheer volume of the flow of materials from World Streets that is now making its way daily into the New Mobility Café, interesting and useful though they may be,  is going to be a barrier for your comfortable use of this good forum. So I would like to fix that.

       

      My first thought is simply to turn off the spigot and just redirect everything from Streets henceforth only to the Yahoo Groups site we have set up for all these communications to which you can have full and free access - http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WorldStree ts/. To subscribe, send a blank email to WorldStreets- subscribe@ yahoogroups. com. I intend to do this before the end of the week, unless I hear from any of you to the contrary. However I do think it is a plan, so let me know in either event if you will.

       

      2.      Eyes on the Street
      And while I have your  attention, might you be interested to join us as an informal, unpaid but not unappreciated member of the World Eyes on the Street network? You can see all about it at http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 03/world- streets-correspo ndents.html. The idea, in case it is not clear, is to find ways to achieve more efficient  global/local links. That is what WorldStreets is all about.

       

      3.      Symbolic support:
      Finally, what a great chance for you to do the right thing, make your way to World Streets and send us a dollar as a token of your support for all we are trying to do to move us toward more sustainable  cities and more sustainable  lives. You will see it on Streets on the top left menu, or you can go directly took it by clicking here -
      http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 02/sponsorssuppo rt.html

       

      Busy days

       

      Eric Britton

       

      PS.. Take a look at that map. Notice anything, other than the obvious omissions. For example in all of Africa thus far only three observors . . . but all of them women. One of the main goals of World Streets is to look at our cities and mobility arangmetns through women’s eyes. For more on that check out http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 04/welcome- to-world- streets.html

       

       

                                          World Eyes on the Street– www.worldstreets. org

       

       

        New Mobility Partnerships  http://www.newmobil ity.org

             Europe:   8/10 rue Joseph Bara,     75006 Paris,  France   

        T:  +331 4326 1323  or  +339 7044 4179   Skype: ericbritton

            USA:      9440 Readcrest Drive   Los Angeles, CA  90210      

                 T:  +1 310 601-8468    Skype : newmobility

       


    • Andrew Curry
      As an occasional contributor to the list I am with Richard here. (This is partly because I find the whole Yahoo group structure utterly user-unfriendly;
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 14, 2009
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        As an occasional contributor to the list I am with Richard here. (This is partly because I find the whole Yahoo group structure utterly user-unfriendly; nothing is more likely to make me stop participating in a group...).

        The blog will attract readers and researchers, as Richard observes. And his poinjt about making sure that the resource is preserved and archivable is really important.

        Best wishes

        Andrew



        2009/4/14 Richard Layman <rlaymandc@...>
        Eric, not everyone, including me, likes to go to websites for information.  We prefer "push" in this case email.
         
        You should leave it as is.  The people who think there is too much email will either change to a setting that collects individual emails into "grouped" emails providing all the email but seemingly less message traffic in their mailbox or they will unsubscribe.  (Note that people who tend to subscribe to lists this way don't write.  It is writers who prefer individual messages and who are more wont to respond.)
         
        In short, people who write/produce content consume Internet-based information differently from people who don't write.  Catering policies to people who don't produce info but merely consume it can be destructive.
         
        In my experience, every instance of email lists converting in the way you outlined, have eventually been destroyed as a result.  All the Project for Public Spaces lists--which were important (public spaces and public markets in particular)--are destroyed now.  (Eventually PPS even dumped the Internet forums because of lack of participation.)  And the old Internet Marketing e-list from the early 1990s.  Etc.

        As Richard Gere said to Lou Gossett in the film "Officer and a Gentleman,":
         
        "Don't you do it.  Don't.  I got nowhere else to go.  I got nothing else."
        Richard Layman
        DC

        --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Eric Britton <eric.britton@...> wrote:

        From: Eric Britton <eric.britton@...>
        Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Info overload
        To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 6:30 AM

        Dear all 681 members of the New Mobility Agenda/World Transport Forum, our common watering hole for sustainable transport since 1999.

         

        1.      Information Overload in the New Mobility Café
        I am afraid that the sheer volume of the flow of materials from World Streets that is now making its way daily into the New Mobility Café, interesting and useful though they may be,  is going to be a barrier for your comfortable use of this good forum. So I would like to fix that.

         

        My first thought is simply to turn off the spigot and just redirect everything from Streets henceforth only to the Yahoo Groups site we have set up for all these communications to which you can have full and free access - http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WorldStree ts/. To subscribe, send a blank email to WorldStreets- subscribe@ yahoogroups. com. I intend to do this before the end of the week, unless I hear from any of you to the contrary. However I do think it is a plan, so let me know in either event if you will.

         

        2.      Eyes on the Street
        And while I have your  attention, might you be interested to join us as an informal, unpaid but not unappreciated member of the World Eyes on the Street network? You can see all about it at http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 03/world- streets-correspo ndents.html. The idea, in case it is not clear, is to find ways to achieve more efficient  global/local links. That is what WorldStreets is all about.

         

        3.      Symbolic support:
        Finally, what a great chance for you to do the right thing, make your way to World Streets and send us a dollar as a token of your support for all we are trying to do to move us toward more sustainable  cities and more sustainable  lives. You will see it on Streets on the top left menu, or you can go directly took it by clicking here -
        http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 02/sponsorssuppo rt.html

         

        Busy days

         

        Eric Britton

         

        PS.. Take a look at that map. Notice anything, other than the obvious omissions. For example in all of Africa thus far only three observors . . . but all of them women. One of the main goals of World Streets is to look at our cities and mobility arangmetns through women’s eyes. For more on that check out http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 04/welcome- to-world- streets.html

         

         

                                            World Eyes on the Street– www.worldstreets. org

         

         

          New Mobility Partnerships  http://www.newmobil ity.org

               Europe:   8/10 rue Joseph Bara,     75006 Paris,  France   

          T:  +331 4326 1323  or  +339 7044 4179   Skype: ericbritton

              USA:      9440 Readcrest Drive   Los Angeles, CA  90210      

                   T:  +1 310 601-8468    Skype : newmobility

         





        --
        Email from Andrew Curry

        And see my personal futures blog at http://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/
      • Aashish Gupta
        As an unoccasional contributor, I still like the mails. And read them too. Please dont stop. Aashish On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Andrew Curry
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 14, 2009
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          As an unoccasional contributor, I still like the mails. And read them too. Please dont stop.

          Aashish

          On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Andrew Curry <andrew.nextwave@...> wrote:


          As an occasional contributor to the list I am with Richard here. (This is partly because I find the whole Yahoo group structure utterly user-unfriendly; nothing is more likely to make me stop participating in a group...).

          The blog will attract readers and researchers, as Richard observes. And his poinjt about making sure that the resource is preserved and archivable is really important.

          Best wishes

          Andrew



          2009/4/14 Richard Layman <rlaymandc@...>

          Eric, not everyone, including me, likes to go to websites for information.  We prefer "push" in this case email.
           
          You should leave it as is.  The people who think there is too much email will either change to a setting that collects individual emails into "grouped" emails providing all the email but seemingly less message traffic in their mailbox or they will unsubscribe.  (Note that people who tend to subscribe to lists this way don't write.  It is writers who prefer individual messages and who are more wont to respond.)
           
          In short, people who write/produce content consume Internet-based information differently from people who don't write.  Catering policies to people who don't produce info but merely consume it can be destructive.
           
          In my experience, every instance of email lists converting in the way you outlined, have eventually been destroyed as a result.  All the Project for Public Spaces lists--which were important (public spaces and public markets in particular)--are destroyed now.  (Eventually PPS even dumped the Internet forums because of lack of participation.)  And the old Internet Marketing e-list from the early 1990s.  Etc.

          As Richard Gere said to Lou Gossett in the film "Officer and a Gentleman,":
           
          "Don't you do it.  Don't.  I got nowhere else to go.  I got nothing else."
          Richard Layman
          DC

          --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Eric Britton <eric.britton@...> wrote:

          From: Eric Britton <eric.britton@...>
          Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Info overload
          To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 6:30 AM

          Dear all 681 members of the New Mobility Agenda/World Transport Forum, our common watering hole for sustainable transport since 1999.

           

          1.      Information Overload in the New Mobility Café
          I am afraid that the sheer volume of the flow of materials from World Streets that is now making its way daily into the New Mobility Café, interesting and useful though they may be,  is going to be a barrier for your comfortable use of this good forum. So I would like to fix that.

           

          My first thought is simply to turn off the spigot and just redirect everything from Streets henceforth only to the Yahoo Groups site we have set up for all these communications to which you can have full and free access - http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WorldStree ts/. To subscribe, send a blank email to WorldStreets- subscribe@ yahoogroups. com. I intend to do this before the end of the week, unless I hear from any of you to the contrary. However I do think it is a plan, so let me know in either event if you will.

           

          2.      Eyes on the Street
          And while I have your  attention, might you be interested to join us as an informal, unpaid but not unappreciated member of the World Eyes on the Street network? You can see all about it at http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 03/world- streets-correspo ndents.html. The idea, in case it is not clear, is to find ways to achieve more efficient  global/local links. That is what WorldStreets is all about.

           

          3.      Symbolic support:
          Finally, what a great chance for you to do the right thing, make your way to World Streets and send us a dollar as a token of your support for all we are trying to do to move us toward more sustainable  cities and more sustainable  lives. You will see it on Streets on the top left menu, or you can go directly took it by clicking here -
          http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 02/sponsorssuppo rt.html

           

          Busy days

           

          Eric Britton

           

          PS.. Take a look at that map. Notice anything, other than the obvious omissions. For example in all of Africa thus far only three observors . . . but all of them women. One of the main goals of World Streets is to look at our cities and mobility arangmetns through women’s eyes. For more on that check out http://newmobilitya genda.blogspot. com/2009/ 04/welcome- to-world- streets.html

           

           

                                              World Eyes on the Street– www.worldstreets. org

           

           

            New Mobility Partnerships  http://www.newmobil ity.org

                 Europe:   8/10 rue Joseph Bara,     75006 Paris,  France   

            T:  +331 4326 1323  or  +339 7044 4179   Skype: ericbritton

                USA:      9440 Readcrest Drive   Los Angeles, CA  90210      

                     T:  +1 310 601-8468    Skype : newmobility

           





          --
          Email from Andrew Curry

          And see my personal futures blog at http://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/

        • Theo Schmidt
          ... There is indeed an info overload, but this mailing list is part of it. In particular, unlike most mailing lists, this one permits attachments, even large
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 15, 2009
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            Richard Layman wrote:
            > Eric, not everyone, including me, likes to go to websites for information. We
            > prefer "push" in this case email.

            There is indeed an info overload, but this mailing list is part of it. In
            particular, unlike most mailing lists, this one permits attachments, even large
            attachments. Even worse, it doesn't cut off the attachments when people reply to
            a mail with attachments. Each of the three mails in this thread so far are about
            0.5 MB in size. This is 100 to 1000 times larger than required and is like a
            single person driving around in an SUV or even Hummer instead of using a
            bicycle. The waste of electronic resources is not a bad as wasting real
            resources, but it is not as trivial as most people believe: all those servers,
            hard disks, internet lines, modems and PCs use electricity and consume materials
            for their production. It is said that a single internet search consumes as much
            electricity as used to power a light bulb for an hour.

            This could be "solved" if the mailing list were set to discard attachments.

            Even without the attachments, I ask people to snip off or edit the quotes when
            replying to mails, as otherwise they are still about ten times larger than
            required. But mainly, the numerous recycled quotes make it difficult to find
            anything later; searching for a particular message or phrase returns too many
            results as everybody keeps copying them. This is a form of info overload by
            itself. Messages which are too large or poorly readable/searchable get deleted
            more quickly than others.


            > You should leave it as is. The people who think there is too much email will
            > either change to a setting that collects individual emails into "grouped" emails
            > providing all the email but seemingly less message traffic in their mailbox or
            > they will unsubscribe.

            Unfortunately the digest option falls flat if attachments aren't removed and if
            people don't remove the bottom quotes. Such digests are almost unreadable and
            hideously large. They also break the threading capability of most email-programs.

            > (Note that people who tend to subscribe to lists this
            > way don't write.

            This is a solution: as long as people who use the digest mode don't reply, the
            threading isn't broken.

            ...
            > In my experience, every instance of email lists converting in the way you
            > outlined, have eventually been destroyed as a result. All the Project for
            > Public Spaces lists--which were important (public spaces and public markets in
            > particular)--are destroyed now.

            Yes and no. I think it is a generation thing. Young people these days may have
            an email address, but they know even less how to use it than the older
            generation, aren't taught in school, and generally don't use email anyway, but
            SMS and Facebook, and maybe also instant messaging and Twitter, things which a
            chap like me all won't have.

            Eric's terrific work in opening one web site after another is very laudable, but
            the techniques used are resource-consuming and don't work well. This isn't a
            slur on Eric; 90% of websites, even those from large firms who should know
            better and who spend millions on them, are virtually unusable (e.g. you often
            see: 128 of 230 images loading... and still a blank screen!)!

            I don't have an answer, but this is what I would like:

            1) A single, well-structured website with basic technology, even if a blog or a
            wiki or something is incorporated.

            2) A mailing list and email newsletter, which includes links (just links!) to
            the relevant parts of the website.

            This way, we can have both "pull" and "push" and people are free to look over
            the website on their own or just read the mailing list, or both, all without
            necessarly using any of the new-fangled and bloated Web 2.0-3.0 stuff (except
            maybe the mentioned blog and wiki).

            Best, Theo Schmidt, Switzerland
          • Carlosfelipe Pardo
            Hi, I think the only problem of overload is the fact that the same message is sent via various listgroups (sustran, newmobility, etc etc). If it were sent
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 15, 2009
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              Hi, I think the only problem of "overload" is the fact that the same
              message is sent via various listgroups (sustran, newmobility, etc etc).
              If it were sent via only one (in this case, a new
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets/
              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorldStreets/> ), I think it would be
              perfect. But receiving the same message four or five times is a bit
              annoying for some people.

              But I agree, it's good to have some digest every week or so to have the
              information at hand.

              Best regards,

              Carlos.
            • Simon Norton
              I agree that sending messages via up to 4 e-groups is a big nuisance. Not only do I have to delete 3 of them, but I have to check that they are all the same or
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 18, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I agree that sending messages via up to 4 e-groups is a big nuisance. Not only
                do I have to delete 3 of them, but I have to check that they are all the same or
                risk deleting worthwhile messages with the same subject line by mistake.

                At the same time, I do want to receive messages through at least 1 e-group. I
                wish Eric could work out some hierarchy of e-groups which made it unnecessary to
                post any message to more than one of them.

                I agree that people who reply to messages need to avoid quoting more of the
                original than necessary. Personally I hardly ever reply to messages by using the
                "reply" button, as I like to go download my messages and go through them before
                replying. Changing the subject line (though some people object to this) also
                helps to guard against accidental deletion (see above).

                I do find it hard to keep up with Eric's endless IT ideas. I suspect that by the
                time I have found out how to join World Streets and got round to doing so I will
                have missed out on commenting on some points of interest in recent postings. Oh
                well, at least that will help relieve other people's overload problems.

                Simon Norton
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