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RE: [NewMobilityCafe] Support for car industry

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  • Michael Yeates
    Indeed ... the problem(s) seem to be identifying the need for change and getting the change BEFORE the catastrophic failure makes band-aid solutions
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 29, 2008
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      Indeed ... the problem(s) seem to be identifying the need for change and getting the change BEFORE the catastrophic failure makes 'band-aid' solutions politically inevitable as little or no accepted alternatives have been widely assessed.

      This would seem to be due to the persuasive power of wealth based on personal consumption without counting the costs aka capitalism?

      It seems it is that cornucopia or catastrophe problem that was identified back in the late 1980s or early 1990s ... and for those not aware, put those two words in GOOGLE and see what you get --- one answer is a book worth reading even now.

      Michael Yeates................

      At 02:12 AM 30/10/2008, you wrote:

      Hard to disagree with Richard’s point.. but we’re seeing the same thing in the financial rescue – rather than change model, we’re just

      Pouring in money to patch it up. And in housing, rather than recognizing that too many Americans live in single family dwellings they and we cannot afford

      (propelled by deductions of mortgage interest from income, etc) we’re desperately trying to FIGHT the market adjustment that has both

      Inflated housing values and sucked too much capital into housing that could have gone into making a cleaner country.

      So Richard’s point stands – don’t try to patch up a failed business model built in large part on externalizing the costs of individual cars,  switch

      The system to one where everyone pays his/her own way.


      Lee Schipper, Ph.D

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      From: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Layman
      Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:33 AM
      To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [NewMobilityCafe] Support for car industry


      ANother issue is that the problems of the companies--which are self-generated in many respects--aren't necessarily the problems of the industry (many companies, based in other countries and operating in the U.S., are quite successful, even if they are suffering effects from the downturn right now--Honda, Toyota, Renault-Nissan, BMW, etc.), not to mention the point that Morten makes, that if you are gonna tax drivers, why not tax them for costs created and the needs and requirements for transportation system improvement rather than industrial-manufacturing welfare.


      I am from Michigan, and I understand deeply the impact the failure of the domestically headquartered auto industry has had on the state, its municipalities, and the economy.  The reality is $25B to three car companies won't fix that.  And it won't fix the companies either.

      Those particular car companies have a broken business model, and for mobility generally, it's time to create a new business model for mobility, rather than focus on the manufacturers.


      Better to use money charged for driving to improve the optimality of the transportation infrastructure, rather than the effectiveness of particular automobile manufacturers to make and sell cars.


      Richard Layman

      --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Morten@... <Morten@...> wrote:

      From: Morten@... <Morten@...>
      Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Support for car industry
      To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 10:10 AM

      Morten Lange [ mailto:morten7an@ yahoo.com]


      I'd say that is the wrong question.  We can ask till we get blue and black in the face to little or no avail.  What about pointing to :
      - The great costs (externalities)  that cars incur ?
      - Best practices / examples of taxing, that works
      - Examples of traffic evaporation etc thsat work
      - UNCED 7 Rio 1992 principle of polluter pays

      What other good sources are out there in the same vein as "The real cost of gasoline"  (google it) ?

      I do agree with the Esperanto Swede ( Matrin Strid), though, that increasing taxes at this particular moment might be very difficult.  
      But what about positive measures ?  Like Transport planning, giving incentives to those that travel to work and during the working day by other means than in private / company cars  ?
      And pointing to the multiple benefits of alternative transport  not least for personal / family finances should get lots more goodwil in newspapers etc now, if we are willing to write in.

      Best Regards,

      --- On Wed, 29/10/08, S.Norton@dpmms. cam.ac.uk <S.Norton@dpmms. cam.ac.uk> wrote:

      From: S.Norton@dpmms. cam.ac.uk <S.Norton@dpmms. cam.ac.uk>
      Subject: WorldTransport Forum Support for car industry
      To: LotsLessCars@ yahoogroups. com, WorldTransport@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Wednesday, 29 October, 2008, 8:41 AM

      Can we ask that any support for the car industry should come from an
      increase in motoring taxes ?

      Simon Norton


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