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Re: [NewMobilityCafe] EU laws to put brake on bikers(motorcyclists) BUT BUT BUT

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  • Stephen Plowden
    Eric What is this total ban that I favour? My views are as I have set them out and I believe that they are justified objectively It is a fact that motorcycles
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 1, 2006
      Eric

      What is this total ban that I favour? My views are as I have set them
      out and I believe that they are justified objectively

      It is a fact that motorcycles are much more dangerous both to
      themselves and to other road users than cars, and also create more
      noise and other nuisance.They are especially out of place in city
      centres where the pedestrian should be king. Nevertheless, if some
      people want to come into town centres on two-wheeled vehicles which
      provide some power to supplement muscle power, they can, but the
      vehicles have to be fully compatible with push bikes. Is that unreasonable?

      No, it is not OK to speed in a car or in any vehicle. The same report of
      Mayer's and mine had a chapter on speed, and speed has been perhaps my
      major topic ever since.

      You are quite right that cars are over powered, and over weight as
      well, and that contributes hugely and unnecessarily to danger, fuel
      consumption and emissions. This situation can be altered only by
      Governments, which are now failing in their duty to ensure that
      manufacturers can compete for custom only by means which respect the
      environment and the rights of third parties. Simon Lister and I have
      been working on this for the past two years and we hope to finish a
      report this summer. Incidentally, since this is a pro bono venture and
      we are not attached to any university or research institute, we need a
      publisher and suggestions will be welcome.




      Eric Bruun wrote:

      > Stephen
      >
      > Of course you are going to meet resistance. People hear a lot more
      > than the facts, they also hear your
      > intransigence and know that you favor a total ban.
      >
      > Many cars are now grossly overpowered as well. I just read somewhere
      > that many so-called "family cars" in the US now have a higher
      > power-to-weight ratio than "muscle cars" from the 1960s. We all know
      > that many MCs are ridiculously overpowered, but why pick on just
      > motorcycles? Is it OK to speed if you buy a car instead?
      >
      > Finally, I also submit that many of the casualties in London are
      > because the drivers are couriers for whom speeding is a way of life. I
      > live in Philadelphia and even many of the bicycle couriers are dangerous.
      > This is a problem in cities all over the world. The problem isn't just
      > the motorcycles, we also need to remove speeding incentives for
      > couriers, improve alternatives to moving goods and documents via
      > couriers, etc.
      >
      > Eric Bruun
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > >From: Stephen Plowden <stephenplowden@...>
      > >Sent: May 30, 2006 4:53 PM
      > >To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      > >Cc: Bob Davis <RDavis4499@...>, Don Mathew
      > <donm@...>, Roger geffen <roger.geffen@...>, Adam
      > Coffman <adam.coffman@...>, Paige Mitchell
      > <info@...>, RoadPeace <info@...>, Brake
      > Brake <Brake@...>
      > >Subject: Re: [NewMobilityCafe] EU laws to put brake on
      > bikers(motorcyclists) BUT BUT BUT
      > >
      > >Motorcycles have been an interest of mine since Mayer Hillman's and my
      > >report "Danger on the road the needless scourge" published by Policy
      > >Studies Institute in 1984. The fact that they were exempted from the
      > >London congestion charge was one important reason why I opposed the
      > >charge (the other being the failure to compare the charge with other
      > >means of traffic restraint).
      > >
      > >In London in the 2-year period 1999-2000, per mile ridden or driven
      > >motorcycles killed or seriously injured over five times as many
      > >pedestrians as cars did and nearly twice as many cyclists. Even when
      > >motorcyclists hurt only themselves, other people are affected. It is a
      > >traumatic experience to be involved in a crash or even to witness one,
      > >and motorcycle casualties impose a severe strain on health services.
      > >
      > >The solution I suggested for London, which I think would be appropriate
      > >in many cities, is that the only powered two wheelers to be allowed in
      > >the centre would be ones which were fully compatible with bicycles. It
      > >is possible that some low-powered scooters or motorcycles would pass
      > >this test but I think it more probable that only electric bicycles with
      > >a top speed of some 15 mph would. Such powered two-wheelers would be
      > >allowed to share bicycle paths or lanes not just in the centre but
      > >anywhere in the city. Outside the centre, any motorcyle which met
      > >national regulations would be allowed (though not sharing cycle
      > >facilities) provided that they had variable speed speed limiters, which
      > >on any London road would have to be set no higher than 20mph,.
      > >
      > >Nationally, there is at present no limit in the UK on the top speed or
      > >acceleration of motorcycles - some years ago I looked through a
      > >motorcycle magazine and found 40 models with a top speed of 140mph or
      > >more, although the national speed limit is 70 mph. There is a weight
      > >limit of 8 hundredweight (roughly 400 kg), which is effectively not a
      > >limit at all. We need effective regulations on the power, speed and
      > >weight of the motorcycles that can be used on the public highway. To the
      > >extent that large, powerful machines are allowed at all, we need a much
      > >tougher system of graduated rider licensing, such that no one would be
      > >eligible to ride a machine of grade N until (s)he had spent a certain
      > >amount of time with a clean record with a machine of grade N-1 and had
      > >then passed the test for a machine of grade N.
      > >
      > >What is truly frightening is that despite the fact that motorcyclists
      > >are a tiny and deservedly unpopular minority, they are also in Britain a
      > >well organised, well financed and highly vocal body and there is little
      > >or no chance of any major political party adopting policies along these
      > >lines.
      > >
      > >
      > >Eric Britton wrote:
      > >
      > >> Todd Edelman wrote on this date with ref to the letter of our
      > >> knowledgeable Greek colleague K. Tsourlakis and his pertinent comments
      > >> on motorcycles (see below) as follows:
      > >>
      > >>>> I suggest we move this discussion off the Carfree Cities as it is my
      > >> understanding that carfree definately means motorcycle-free in the
      > >> view of the owner of the Carfree Cities list, with no discussion
      > >> possible.<<
      > >>
      > >> Fair enough Mr. Owner. But I just want my colleagues here in our fine
      > >> Sustran group and in the New Mobility Agenda that I really like the
      > >> ?no discussion possible? bit. It tells us a great deal about the real
      > >> world relevance of this point of view and I must conclude the forum
      > >> itself. But what is great about the web of course is that there is
      > >> plenty of space out here for utopian thinking, and it is only right
      > >> that they set their own agendas. What is apparently most important in
      > >> this case is not the untidy world in which we live and have to work
      > >> with, but the pristine ones that some of us have in our heads. Life is
      > >> sweet.
      > >>
      > >> Okay, why do I bother you all with this? It is more than just an
      > >> opportunity to share a wry grin with you. To the contrary, it is to
      > >> encourage more critical discussion and idea mongering on both these
      > >> fora of precisely the motorcycles in cities dilemma. It?s a huge
      > >> reality (you know, reality). For those of us who have lived and worked
      > >> in Asia, we can only see that this is a situation which is profoundly
      > >> out of control and which, as it happens. Deal with phenomena and
      > >> practices which have entirely escaped both planners and policy makers.
      > >> To take just one point of the untidy real world: there is a growing
      > >> population of people for whom two wheels bangers are cheaper and
      > >> ?better? than even the cheapest bus. Well, what do we do then?
      > >>
      > >> So if the ?no discussion possible? comments do nothing other than to
      > >> activate further discussions and work on this here, well they would
      > >> have made a real contribution.
      > >>
      > >> Eric Britton
      > >>
      > >>Motorcycles may be "little guy" in Czechia, but Czechia (or perhaps
      > North
      > >>
      > >>America) is not the whole world. In many South European and Asian
      > cities (and in
      > >>
      > >>an ever growing number of African countries) motorcycle traffic is
      > an important
      > >>
      > >>part of motorised traffic (and in many cases - e.g China or Vietnam-
      > a first
      > >>
      > >>step towards car motorisation).
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>In Athens for instance, 1 million motorcycles pollute freely the
      > city, besides 2
      > >>
      > >>million automobiles - without any (unlike cars) exhaust gas and
      > noise controls.
      > >>
      > >>Motorcycling is deliberately promoted (instead of biking - Athens
      > lacks even 1
      > >>
      > >>km of bike lane) in order to maximize motorised traffic. The corrupt
      > >>
      > >>administration favours motorcycling because they don't compete cars,
      > but use
      > >>
      > >>mostly pedestrian spaces and other free spaces (parks, squares etc)
      > - they have
      > >>
      > >>also recently granted them legally free access to dedicated bus
      > lanes. They use
      > >>
      > >>under police immunity sidewalks and other pedestrian spaces and act more
      > >>
      > >>aggressively than cars, being a major component of the violence and
      > oppression
      > >>
      > >>pedestrians experience in Athens in everyday life, and an important
      > (although
      > >>
      > >>unrecognised) part of the pollution of the most polluted capital in
      > Europe.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>You are not right: they don't only cause damage to the motorcyclists
      > themselves,
      > >>
      > >>but they also kill pedestrians and bicyclists. Even the damage they
      > bring about
      > >>
      > >>to themselves shouldn't be confronted with indifference, given the
      > efforts the
      > >>
      > >>motorcycle lobby makes to lure inexperienced and aggression inclined
      > people to
      > >>
      > >>the motorcycle ideology. However I agree with you that fines and
      > efforts should
      > >>
      > >>concentrate more to the damage they cause to others (like speeding
      > or pedestrian
      > >>
      > >>rights violations) than the harm they cause to themselves (like
      > helmet use -
      > >>
      > >>advising rather than penalties are more appropriate in this case).
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>Although carfree cities is a worthy prospect, perhaps a completely
      > carfree world
      > >>
      > >>is still far away, but a motorcycle free world is already feasible
      > (and may
      > >>
      > >>become a first step towards the carfree vision). For a more thorough
      > discussion
      > >>
      > >>about motorcycles look at
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/motocbust.rtf
      > >>
      > >>or
      > >>
      > >>http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/motocbust.htm
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org
      > >> To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      > >> But please think twice before posting to the group as a whole
      > >> (It might be that your note is best sent to one person?)
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >>
      > >> * Visit your group "NewMobilityCafe
      > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe>" on the web.
      > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > >> NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >>
      > <mailto:NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org
      > >To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      > >But please think twice before posting to the group as a whole
      > >(It might be that your note is best sent to one person?)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org
      > To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      > But please think twice before posting to the group as a whole
      > (It might be that your note is best sent to one person?)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > * Visit your group "NewMobilityCafe
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe>" on the web.
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      >
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    • Rory McMullan
      Banning high powered bikes in cities is a good idea and has worked in other countries: Taiwan restricts sales of motorcycles to a maximum of 150cc, smaller
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 1, 2006
        Banning high powered bikes in cities is a good idea and has worked in other countries: Taiwan restricts sales of motorcycles to a maximum of 150cc, smaller bikes are consequently slower and weigh much less, causing lower risk to other road users.

        Similarly why shouldn’t this rule also apply to cars, there is no logical reason for government to continue to allow cars to be bought for road use which are capable of a top speed above 70mph or even 55mph, cars would be perfectly efficient at under 250cc, why not limit the engine size? The emissions and energy savings would be huge and presumably road deaths would be reduced. Of course this would meet with massive objections from manufacturers, and be exceedingly unpopular with the electorate, but surely it is time to start pushing for a move in this direction to be phased in.
         
        It would also allow electric powered vehicles to compete, which admittedly currently only displace pollution, but do offer a solution longer term if we could ever move to cleaner energy production.
         
        Having lived in Taiwan for several years, where the scooter was once the king of the road, even though now it is being replaced by cars, I believe that motorcycles can offer an efficient solution to sustainable urban transport, but regulations need to be put in place to ensure that they are non-polluting both for noise and air, and that they do not drive cyclists and pedestrians off the road and pavements.
         
        I think we have to accept that people are generally lazy, and will prefer to travel without exercise. Also many trips in today’s urban sprawl are of over 10 miles, which are inaccessible by any means other than by powered vehicle, and the versatility and relative low space requirement of scooters, makes them a good solution.
         
        This is not to say that efficient public transport links combined with options for carrying bicycles isn't preferable.
         
         
        Regards,
         
        Rory McMullan


        Eric Bruun <ericbruun@...> wrote:
        Stephen

        Of course you are going to meet resistance. People hear a lot more than the facts, they also hear your
        intransigence and know that you favor a total ban.

        Many cars are now grossly overpowered as well. I just read somewhere that many so-called "family cars" in the US now have a higher power-to-weight ratio than "muscle cars" from the 1960s. We all know that many MCs are ridiculously overpowered, but why pick on just motorcycles? Is it OK to speed if you buy a car instead?

        Finally, I also submit that many of the casualties in London are because the drivers are couriers for whom speeding is a way of life. I live in Philadelphia and even many of the bicycle couriers are dangerous.
        This is a problem in cities all over the world. The problem isn't just the motorcycles, we also need to remove speeding incentives for couriers, improve alternatives to moving goods and documents via couriers, etc.

        Eric Bruun


        -----Original Message-----
        >From: Stephen Plowden <stephenplowden@...>
        >Sent: May 30, 2006 4:53 PM
        >To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
        >Cc: Bob Davis <RDavis4499@...>, Don Mathew <donm@...>, Roger geffen <roger.geffen@...>, Adam Coffman <adam.coffman@...>, Paige Mitchell <info@...>, RoadPeace <info@...>, Brake Brake <Brake@...>
        >Subject: Re: [NewMobilityCafe] EU laws to put brake on bikers(motorcyclists) BUT BUT BUT
        >
        >Motorcycles have been an interest of mine since Mayer Hillman's and my
        >report "Danger on the road the needless scourge" published by Policy
        >Studies Institute in 1984. The fact that they were exempted from the
        >London congestion charge was one important reason why I opposed the
        >charge (the other being the failure to compare the charge with other
        >means of traffic restraint).
        >
        >In London in the 2-year period 1999-2000, per mile ridden or driven
        >motorcycles killed or seriously injured over five times as many
        >pedestrians as cars did and nearly twice as many cyclists. Even when
        >motorcyclists hurt only themselves, other people are affected. It is a
        >traumatic experience to be involved in a crash or even to witness one,
        >and motorcycle casualties impose a severe strain on health services.
        >
        >The solution I suggested for London, which I think would be appropriate
        >in many cities, is that the only powered two wheelers to be allowed in
        >the centre would be ones which were fully compatible with bicycles. It
        >is possible that some low-powered scooters or motorcycles would pass
        >this test but I think it more probable that only electric bicycles with
        >a top speed of some 15 mph would. Such powered two-wheelers would be
        >allowed to share bicycle paths or lanes not just in the centre but
        >anywhere in the city. Outside the centre, any motorcyle which met
        >national regulations would be allowed (though not sharing cycle
        >facilities) provided that they had variable speed speed limiters, which
        >on any London road would have to be set no higher than 20mph,.
        >
        >Nationally, there is at present no limit in the UK on the top speed or
        >acceleration of motorcycles - some years ago I looked through a
        >motorcycle magazine and found 40 models with a top speed of 140mph or
        >more, although the national speed limit is 70 mph. There is a weight
        >limit of 8 hundredweight (roughly 400 kg), which is effectively not a
        >limit at all. We need effective regulations on the power, speed and
        >weight of the motorcycles that can be used on the public highway. To the
        >extent that large, powerful machines are allowed at all, we need a much
        >tougher system of graduated rider licensing, such that no one would be
        >eligible to ride a machine of grade N until (s)he had spent a certain
        >amount of time with a clean record with a machine of grade N-1 and had
        >then passed the test for a machine of grade N.
        >
        >What is truly frightening is that despite the fact that motorcyclists
        >are a tiny and deservedly unpopular minority, they are also in Britain a
        >well organised, well financed and highly vocal body and there is little
        >or no chance of any major political party adopting policies along these
        >lines.
        >
        >
        >Eric Britton wrote:
        >
        >> Todd Edelman wrote on this date with ref to the letter of our
        >> knowledgeable Greek colleague K. Tsourlakis and his pertinent comments
        >> on motorcycles (see below) as follows:
        >>
        >>>> I suggest we move this discussion off the Carfree Cities as it is my
        >> understanding that carfree definately means motorcycle-free in the
        >> view of the owner of the Carfree Cities list, with no discussion
        >> possible.<<
        >>
        >> Fair enough Mr. Owner. But I just want my colleagues here in our fine
        >> Sustran group and in the New Mobility Agenda that I really like the
        >> ?no discussion possible? bit. It tells us a great deal about the real
        >> world relevance of this point of view and I must conclude the forum
        >> itself. But what is great about the web of course is that there is
        >> plenty of space out here for utopian thinking, and it is only right
        >> that they set their own agendas. What is apparently most important in
        >> this case is not the untidy world in which we live and have to work
        >> with, but the pristine ones that some of us have in our heads. Life is
        >> sweet.
        >>
        >> Okay, why do I bother you all with this? It is more than just an
        >> opportunity to share a wry grin with you. To the contrary, it is to
        >> encourage more critical discussion and idea mongering on both these
        >> fora of precisely the motorcycles in cities dilemma. It?s a huge
        >> reality (you know, reality). For those of us who have lived and worked
        >> in Asia, we can only see that this is a situation which is profoundly
        >> out of control and which, as it happens. Deal with phenomena and
        >> practices which have entirely escaped both planners and policy makers.
        >> To take just one point of the untidy real world: there is a growing
        >> population of people for whom two wheels bangers are cheaper and
        >> ?better? than even the cheapest bus. Well, what do we do then?
        >>
        >> So if the ?no discussion possible? comments do nothing other than to
        >> activate further discussions and work on this here, well they would
        >> have made a real contribution.
        >>
        >> Eric Britton
        >>
        >>Motorcycles may be "little guy" in Czechia, but Czechia (or perhaps North
        >>
        >>America) is not the whole world. In many South European and Asian cities (and in
        >>
        >>an ever growing number of African countries) motorcycle traffic is an important
        >>
        >>part of motorised traffic (and in many cases - e.g China or Vietnam- a first
        >>
        >>step towards car motorisation).
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>In Athens for instance, 1 million motorcycles pollute freely the city, besides 2
        >>
        >>million automobiles - without any (unlike cars) exhaust gas and noise controls.
        >>
        >>Motorcycling is deliberately promoted (instead of biking - Athens lacks even 1
        >>
        >>km of bike lane) in order to maximize motorised traffic. The corrupt
        >>
        >>administration favours motorcycling because they don't compete cars, but use
        >>
        >>mostly pedestrian spaces and other free spaces (parks, squares etc) - they have
        >>
        >>also recently granted them legally free access to dedicated bus lanes. They use
        >>
        >>under police immunity sidewalks and other pedestrian spaces and act more
        >>
        >>aggressively than cars, being a major component of the violence and oppression
        >>
        >>pedestrians experience in Athens in everyday life, and an important (although
        >>
        >>unrecognised) part of the pollution of the most polluted capital in Europe.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>You are not right: they don't only cause damage to the motorcyclists themselves,
        >>
        >>but they also kill pedestrians and bicyclists. Even the damage they bring about
        >>
        >>to themselves shouldn't be confronted with indifference, given the efforts the
        >>
        >>motorcycle lobby makes to lure inexperienced and aggression inclined people to
        >>
        >>the motorcycle ideology. However I agree with you that fines and efforts should
        >>
        >>concentrate more to the damage they cause to others (like speeding or pedestrian
        >>
        >>rights violations) than the harm they cause to themselves (like helmet use -
        >>
        >>advising rather than penalties are more appropriate in this case).
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>Although carfree cities is a worthy prospect, perhaps a completely carfree world
        >>
        >>is still far away, but a motorcycle free world is already feasible (and may
        >>
        >>become a first step towards the carfree vision). For a more thorough discussion
        >>
        >>about motorcycles look at
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/motocbust.rtf
        >>
        >>or
        >>
        >>http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/motocbust.htm
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org
        >> To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
        >> But please think twice before posting to the group as a whole
        >> (It might be that your note is best sent to one person?)
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >>
        >>     * Visit your group "NewMobilityCafe
        >>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewMobilityCafe>" on the web.
        >>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >>       NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >>       <mailto:NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        >>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org  
        >To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
        >But please think twice before posting to the group as a whole
        >(It might be that your note is best sent to one person?)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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        >
        >
        >




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      • Stephen Plowden
        Absolutely right that we shd apply similar rules to cars - there wd be huge net benefits. This is what I am now working on. I am not sure that such rules would
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 5, 2006
          Absolutely right that we shd apply similar rules to cars - there wd be
          huge net benefits. This is what I am now working on.

          I am not sure that such rules would be unpopular with electorate, or
          even with the motorists among them. They would certainly be very
          unpopular with a highly vocal section of motorists, and that is what our
          timid Government is afraid of.

          For an individual manufacturer to restrict the weight/ acceleration /top
          speed of his cars wd be commercial suicide, but we need rules which
          would apply to all manufacturers. If they were given time to adjust,
          they might accept the idea quite gracefully, and if they would not,
          Governments must face them down.




          Rory McMullan wrote:

          > Banning high powered bikes in cities is a good idea and has worked in
          > other countries: Taiwan restricts sales of motorcycles to a maximum of
          > 150cc, smaller bikes are consequently slower and weigh much less,
          > causing lower risk to other road users.
          >
          > Similarly why shouldn’t this rule also apply to cars, there is no
          > logical reason for government to continue to allow cars to be bought
          > for road use which are capable of a top speed above 70mph or even
          > 55mph, cars would be perfectly efficient at under 250cc, why not limit
          > the engine size? The emissions and energy savings would be huge and
          > presumably road deaths would be reduced. Of course this would meet
          > with massive objections from manufacturers, and be exceedingly
          > unpopular with the electorate, but surely it is time to start pushing
          > for a move in this direction to be phased in.
          > It would also allow electric powered vehicles to compete, which
          > admittedly currently only displace pollution, but do offer a solution
          > longer term if we could ever move to cleaner energy production.
          > Having lived in Taiwan for several years, where the scooter was once
          > the king of the road, even though now it is being replaced by cars, I
          > believe that motorcycles can offer an efficient solution to
          > sustainable urban transport, but regulations need to be put in place
          > to ensure that they are non-polluting both for noise and air, and that
          > they do not drive cyclists and pedestrians off the road and pavements.
          > I think we have to accept that people are generally lazy, and will
          > prefer to travel without exercise. Also many trips in today’s urban
          > sprawl are of over 10 miles, which are inaccessible by any means other
          > than by powered vehicle, and the versatility and relative low space
          > requirement of scooters, makes them a good solution.
          > This is not to say that efficient public transport links combined with
          > options for carrying bicycles isn't preferable.
          > Regards,
          > Rory McMullan
          >
          >
          > */Eric Bruun <ericbruun@...>/* wrote:
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          > Of course you are going to meet resistance. People hear a lot more
          > than the facts, they also hear your
          > intransigence and know that you favor a total ban.
          >
          > Many cars are now grossly overpowered as well. I just read
          > somewhere that many so-called "family cars" in the US now have a
          > higher power-to-weight ratio than "muscle cars" from the 1960s. We
          > all know that many MCs are ridiculously overpowered, but why pick
          > on just motorcycles? Is it OK to speed if you buy a car instead?
          >
          > Finally, I also submit that many of the casualties in London are
          > because the drivers are couriers for whom speeding is a way of
          > life. I live in Philadelphia and even many of the bicycle couriers
          > are dangerous.
          > This is a problem in cities all over the world. The problem isn't
          > just the motorcycles, we also need to remove speeding incentives
          > for couriers, improve alternatives to moving goods and documents
          > via couriers, etc.
          >
          > Eric Bruun
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          >>From: Stephen Plowden <stephenplowden@...>
          >>Sent: May 30, 2006 4:53 PM
          >>To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
          >>Cc: Bob Davis <RDavis4499@...>, Don Mathew
          > <donm@...>, Roger geffen <roger.geffen@...>,
          > Adam Coffman <adam.coffman@...>, Paige Mitchell
          > <info@...>, RoadPeace <info@...>,
          > Brake Brake <Brake@...>
          >>Subject: Re: [NewMobilityCafe] EU laws to put brake on
          > bikers(motorcyclists) BUT BUT BUT
          >>
          >>Motorcycles have been an interest of mine since Mayer Hillman's
          > and my
          >>report "Danger on the road the needless scourge" published by Policy
          >>Studies Institute in 1984. The fact that they were exempted from the
          >>London congestion charge was one important reason why I opposed the
          >>charge (the other being the failure to compare the charge with other
          >>means of traffic restraint).
          >>
          >>In London in the 2-year period 1999-2000, per mile ridden or driven
          >>motorcycles killed or seriously injured over five times as many
          >>pedestrians as cars did and nearly twice as many cyclists. Even when
          >>motorcyclists hurt only themselves, other people are affected. It
          > is a
          >>traumatic experience to be involved in a crash or even to witness
          > one,
          >>and motorcycle casualties impose a severe strain on health services.
          >>
          >>The solution I suggested for London, which I think would be
          > appropriate
          >>in many cities, is that the only powered two wheelers to be
          > allowed in
          >>the centre would be ones which were fully compatible with
          > bicycles. It
          >>is possible that some low-powered scooters or motorcycles would pass
          >>this test but I think it more probable that only electric bicycles
          > with
          >>a top speed of some 15 mph would. Such powered two-wheelers would be
          >>allowed to share bicycle paths or lanes not just in the centre but
          >>anywhere in the city. Outside the centre, any motorcyle which met
          >>national regulations would be allowed (though not sharing cycle
          >>facilities) provided that they had variable speed speed limiters,
          > which
          >>on any London road would have to be set no higher than 20mph,.
          >>
          >>Nationally, there is at present no limit in the UK on the top
          > speed or
          >>acceleration of motorcycles - some years ago I looked through a
          >>motorcycle magazine and found 40 models with a top speed of 140mph or
          >>more, although the national speed limit is 70 mph. There is a weight
          >>limit of 8 hundredweight (roughly 400 kg), which is effectively not a
          >>limit at all. We need effective regulations on the power, speed and
          >>weight of the motorcycles that can be used on the public highway.
          > To the
          >>extent that large, powerful machines are allowed at all, we need a
          > much
          >>tougher system of graduated rider licensing, such that no one
          > would be
          >>eligible to ride a machine of grade N until (s)he had spent a certain
          >>amount of time with a clean record with a machine of grade N-1 and
          > had
          >>then passed the test for a machine of grade N.
          >>
          >>What is truly frightening is that despite the fact that motorcyclists
          >>are a tiny and deservedly unpopular minority, they are also in
          > Britain a
          >>well organised, well financed and highly vocal body and there is
          > little
          >>or no chance of any major political party adopting policies along
          > these
          >>lines.
          >>
          >>
          >>Eric Britton wrote:
          >>
          >>> Todd Edelman wrote on this date with ref to the letter of our
          >>> knowledgeable Greek colleague K. Tsourlakis and his pertinent
          > comments
          >>> on motorcycles (see below) as follows:
          >>>
          >>>>> I suggest we move this discussion off the Carfree Cities as it
          > is my
          >>> understanding that carfree definately means motorcycle-free in the
          >>> view of the owner of the Carfree Cities list, with no discussion
          >>> possible.<<
          >>>
          >>> Fair enough Mr. Owner. But I just want my colleagues here in our
          > fine
          >>> Sustran group and in the New Mobility Agenda that I really like the
          >>> ?no discussion possible? bit. It tells us a great deal about the
          > real
          >>> world relevance of this point of view and I must conclude the forum
          >>> itself. But what is great about the web of course is that there is
          >>> plenty of space out here for utopian thinking, and it is only right
          >>> that they set their own agendas. What is apparently most
          > important in
          >>> this case is not the untidy world in which we live and have to work
          >>> with, but the pristine ones that some of us have in our heads.
          > Life is
          >>> sweet.
          >>>
          >>> Okay, why do I bother you all with this? It is more than just an
          >>> opportunity to share a wry grin with you. To the contrary, it is to
          >>> encourage more critical discussion and idea mongering on both these
          >>> fora of precisely the motorcycles in cities dilemma. It?s a huge
          >>> reality (you know, reality). For those of us who have lived and
          > worked
          >>> in Asia, we can only see that this is a situation which is
          > profoundly
          >>> out of control and which, as it happens. Deal with phenomena and
          >>> practices which have entirely escaped both planners and policy
          > makers.
          >>> To take just one point of the untidy real world: there is a growing
          >>> population of people for whom two wheels bangers are cheaper and
          >>> ?better? than even the cheapest bus. Well, what do we do then?
          >>>
          >>> So if the ?no discussion possible? comments do nothing other
          > than to
          >>> activate further discussions and work on this here, well they would
          >>> have made a real contribution.
          >>>
          >>> Eric Britton
          >>>
          >>>Motorcycles may be "little guy" in Czechia, but Czechia (or
          > perhaps North
          >>>
          >>>America) is not the whole world. In many South European and Asian
          > cities (and in
          >>>
          >>>an ever growing number of African countries) motorcycle traffic
          > is an important
          >>>
          >>>part of motorised traffic (and in many cases - e.g China or
          > Vietnam- a first
          >>>
          >>>step towards car motorisation).
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>In Athens for instance, 1 million motorcycles pollute freely the
          > city, besides 2
          >>>
          >>>million automobiles - without any (unlike cars) exhaust gas and
          > noise controls.
          >>>
          >>>Motorcycling is deliberately promoted (instead of biking - Athens
          > lacks even 1
          >>>
          >>>km of bike lane) in order to maximize motorised traffic. The corrupt
          >>>
          >>>administration favours motorcycling because they don't compete
          > cars, but use
          >>>
          >>>mostly pedestrian spaces and other free spaces (parks, squares
          > etc) - they have
          >>>
          >>>also recently granted them legally free access to dedicated bus
          > lanes. They use
          >>>
          >>>under police immunity sidewalks and other pedestrian spaces and
          > act more
          >>>
          >>>aggressively than cars, being a major component of the violence
          > and oppression
          >>>
          >>>pedestrians experience in Athens in everyday life, and an
          > important (although
          >>>
          >>>unrecognised) part of the pollution of the most polluted capital
          > in Europe.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>You are not right: they don't only cause damage to the
          > motorcyclists themselves,
          >>>
          >>>but they also kill pedestrians and bicyclists. Even the damage
          > they bring about
          >>>
          >>>to themselves shouldn't be confronted with indifference, given
          > the efforts the
          >>>
          >>>motorcycle lobby makes to lure inexperienced and aggression
          > inclined people to
          >>>
          >>>the motorcycle ideology. However I agree with you that fines and
          > efforts should
          >>>
          >>>concentrate more to the damage they cause to others (like
          > speeding or pedestrian
          >>>
          >>>rights violations) than the harm they cause to themselves (like
          > helmet use -
          >>>
          >>>advising rather than penalties are more appropriate in this case).
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>Although carfree cities is a worthy prospect, perhaps a
          > completely carfree world
          >>>
          >>>is still far away, but a motorcycle free world is already
          > feasible (and may
          >>>
          >>>become a first step towards the carfree vision). For a more
          > thorough discussion
          >>>
          >>>about motorcycles look at
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/motocbust.rtf
          >>>
          >>>or
          >>>
          >>>http://www.geocities.com/pezosgr/motocbust.htm
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Check in here via the homepage at http://www.newmobility.org
          > <http://www.newmobility.org/>
          >>> To post message to group: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
          >>> But please think twice before posting to the group as a whole
          >>> (It might be that your note is best sent to one person?)
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          >>>
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          >>>
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