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RE: [NewMobilityCafe] Re: Times Article on Congestion Charging in NYC

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  • Wetzel Dave
    I agree - but taxing gives developers, employees and employers a choice. Developers could make more money by avoiding car parking in new developments and add
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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      I agree - but taxing gives developers, employees and employers a choice.



      Developers could make more money by avoiding car parking in new developments
      and add to useable building space or leisure gardens etc.





      Dave
      Dave Wetzel; Vice-Chair; Transport for London.



      -----Original Message-----
      From: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anzir Boodoo
      Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 4:12 PM
      To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [NewMobilityCafe] Re: Times Article on Congestion Charging in
      NYC



      Dave,
      On 14 Nov 2005, at 10:38, Wetzel Dave wrote:

      > The Labour Govt in the UK has given local authorities powers to tax
      > workplace car parking spaces, but to date no Council has used this
      > power.

      I think taxing spaces might have less of a deterrent effect than
      removing them completely, but again, this only works when a
      sufficient proportion of the spaces are in local authority control.

      Personally, I think removing on street spaces is good as an idea, but
      flawed, certainly in the UK, where in town & city centres there is
      far more parking off street. Also all workplace parking is private
      and as I understand it from what I've seen, companies are just as
      likely to pass the tax straight on to their employees as they are to
      reduce workplace parking.

      Did Nottingham decide not to implement workplace parking charges
      then? I thought they were going to be used to fund the tram.

      --
      Anzir Boodoo MRes MILT Aff. IRO
      transcience, Leeds Innovation Centre, 103 Clarendon Road, LEEDS LS2 9DF
    • Stephen Plowden
      It is important to remove (not merely tax) off-street parking, for which powers do not now exist in Britain. This was suggested by the Dept of Transport in
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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        It is important to remove (not merely tax) off-street parking, for
        which powers do not now exist in Britain. This was suggested by the Dept
        of Transport in the late 1970s but at that time local authories were not
        interested. But removing parking in central areas by itself cd make the
        problems worse as the freed road space fills up again with traffic that
        does not need to park. Parking combined with other measures (e.g.
        reallocation of road space and lower speeds) is a very powerful and
        unduly neglected restraint measure.

        Anzir Boodoo wrote:

        > Dave,
        > On 14 Nov 2005, at 10:38, Wetzel Dave wrote:
        >
        > > The Labour Govt in the UK has given local authorities powers to tax
        > > workplace car parking spaces, but to date no Council has used this
        > > power.
        >
        > I think taxing spaces might have less of a deterrent effect than
        > removing them completely, but again, this only works when a
        > sufficient proportion of the spaces are in local authority control.
        >
        > Personally, I think removing on street spaces is good as an idea, but
        > flawed, certainly in the UK, where in town & city centres there is
        > far more parking off street. Also all workplace parking is private
        > and as I understand it from what I've seen, companies are just as
        > likely to pass the tax straight on to their employees as they are to
        > reduce workplace parking.
        >
        > Did Nottingham decide not to implement workplace parking charges
        > then? I thought they were going to be used to fund the tram.
        >
        > --
        > Anzir Boodoo MRes MILT Aff. IRO
        > transcience, Leeds Innovation Centre, 103 Clarendon Road, LEEDS LS2 9DF
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The New Mobility Agenda is permanently at http://NewMobility.org
        > To post messages to list: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
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      • Anzir Boodoo
        Stephen, ... I don t see how off street parking which is not local authority controlled could be removed. In most towns and cities, there is at least as much
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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          Stephen,
          On 14 Nov 2005, at 18:16, Stephen Plowden wrote:

          > It is important to remove (not merely tax) off-street parking, for
          > which powers do not now exist in Britain. This was suggested by the
          > Dept
          > of Transport in the late 1970s but at that time local authories
          > were not
          > interested. But removing parking in central areas by itself cd make
          > the
          > problems worse as the freed road space fills up again with traffic
          > that
          > does not need to park. Parking combined with other measures (e.g.
          > reallocation of road space and lower speeds) is a very powerful and
          > unduly neglected restraint measure.

          I don't see how off street parking which is not local authority
          controlled could be removed. In most towns and cities, there is at
          least as much private off street parking (eg shopping centres, retail
          parks) as local authority controlled.

          Once parking has been removed, and people know they cannot park, does
          demand for central area roadspace reduce? Or do people take their
          chances as they do in many towns and cities, and use residential
          spaces or park on street where they can?

          As you say, there needs to be a package of measures of which parking
          is a part.

          Sorry to have more questions than answers (as usual).
          --
          Anzir Boodoo MRes MILT Aff. IRO
          transcience, Leeds Innovation Centre, 103 Clarendon Road, LEEDS LS2 9DF
        • Eric Bruun
          Stephen Not always. On-street parking can be good as a buffer between pedestrians and traffic when done right. Also, for short-term parking and pickup and
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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            Stephen

            Not always. On-street parking can be good as a buffer between pedestrians and traffic when done right.
            Also, for short-term parking and pickup and delivery, on-street is better. If you make it too inconvenient
            to park for only a little while, then people will go shop in the suburbs instead.

            Eric Bruun

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Stephen Plowden <stephenplowden@...>
            Sent: Nov 14, 2005 1:16 PM
            To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Times Article on Congestion Charging in NYC - Comment 6

            It is important to remove (not merely tax) off-street parking, for
            which powers do not now exist in Britain. This was suggested by the Dept
            of Transport in the late 1970s but at that time local authories were not
            interested. But removing parking in central areas by itself cd make the
            problems worse as the freed road space fills up again with traffic that
            does not need to park. Parking combined with other measures (e.g.
            reallocation of road space and lower speeds) is a very powerful and
            unduly neglected restraint measure.

            Anzir Boodoo wrote:

            > Dave,
            > On 14 Nov 2005, at 10:38, Wetzel Dave wrote:
            >
            > > The Labour Govt in the UK has given local authorities powers to tax
            > > workplace car parking spaces, but to date no Council has used this
            > > power.
            >
            > I think taxing spaces might have less of a deterrent effect than
            > removing them completely, but again, this only works when a
            > sufficient proportion of the spaces are in local authority control.
            >
            > Personally, I think removing on street spaces is good as an idea, but
            > flawed, certainly in the UK, where in town & city centres there is
            > far more parking off street. Also all workplace parking is private
            > and as I understand it from what I've seen, companies are just as
            > likely to pass the tax straight on to their employees as they are to
            > reduce workplace parking.
            >
            > Did Nottingham decide not to implement workplace parking charges
            > then? I thought they were going to be used to fund the tram.
            >
            > --
            > Anzir Boodoo MRes MILT Aff. IRO
            > transcience, Leeds Innovation Centre, 103 Clarendon Road, LEEDS LS2 9DF
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The New Mobility Agenda is permanently at http://NewMobility.org
            > To post messages to list: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >





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          • Stephen Plowden
            Eric I think we are in agreement. Off-street parking is often only available to restricted classes of people, whose access to it is usually unrelated to any
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 14, 2005
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              Eric

              I think we are in agreement. Off-street parking is often only available
              to restricted classes of people, whose access to it is usually
              unrelated to any transport need and is often free. In my view, certainly
              here in London, the priority shd be to it get rid of it rather than to
              get rid of on-street parking, although in the course of time, depending
              on how things go, it might be desirable to make further cuts in
              on-street parking too. (A lot of on-street parking was cut in the
              1970s but in the absence of accompanying measures such as bus or cycle
              lanes the reduction in centre-bound traffic was compensated by an
              increase in through traffic..)

              To answer Anzir's point, the control of off-street parking not owned by
              the local authority will require more powers, and that will require
              legislation. There are two main kinds of off-street parking.. The first
              is odd scraps of land which were never originally intended for parking
              but are now used for it. The present rule in England is that if such
              land has been used for this purpose for more than 10 years it escapes
              the requirement of planning permission. That needs to be changed.. The
              other is purpose-built spaces, e.g under office blocks. In London until
              about 1970 developers were forced to provide these spaces because
              planners naively believed that it wd reduce the demand for on-street
              parking. Everyone agrees that this was a mistake, and it is a mistake
              that has has profoundly affected travel patterns for the worse, but
              nevertheless no one has tried to correct it (except in sofar as when
              those buildings are pulled down their replacements are not allowed the
              same amount of parking.) Local authorities should have powers to insist
              that the land be put to other uses. Compensation would have to be paid,
              but perhaps not much as one might think, because this is valuable space
              which might earn a lot in other uses. We need a study to see what the
              other uses might be and what the costs of conversion wd be (Dave Wetzel,
              please note)



              Eric Bruun wrote:

              > Stephen
              >
              > Not always. On-street parking can be good as a buffer between
              > pedestrians and traffic when done right.
              > Also, for short-term parking and pickup and delivery, on-street is
              > better. If you make it too inconvenient
              > to park for only a little while, then people will go shop in the
              > suburbs instead.
              >
              > Eric Bruun
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Stephen Plowden <stephenplowden@...>
              > Sent: Nov 14, 2005 1:16 PM
              > To: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [NewMobilityCafe] Times Article on Congestion Charging in NYC
              > - Comment 6
              >
              > It is important to remove (not merely tax) off-street parking, for
              > which powers do not now exist in Britain. This was suggested by the Dept
              > of Transport in the late 1970s but at that time local authories were not
              > interested. But removing parking in central areas by itself cd make the
              > problems worse as the freed road space fills up again with traffic that
              > does not need to park. Parking combined with other measures (e.g.
              > reallocation of road space and lower speeds) is a very powerful and
              > unduly neglected restraint measure.
              >
              > Anzir Boodoo wrote:
              >
              > > Dave,
              > > On 14 Nov 2005, at 10:38, Wetzel Dave wrote:
              > >
              > > > The Labour Govt in the UK has given local authorities powers to tax
              > > > workplace car parking spaces, but to date no Council has used this
              > > > power.
              > >
              > > I think taxing spaces might have less of a deterrent effect than
              > > removing them completely, but again, this only works when a
              > > sufficient proportion of the spaces are in local authority control.
              > >
              > > Personally, I think removing on street spaces is good as an idea, but
              > > flawed, certainly in the UK, where in town & city centres there is
              > > far more parking off street. Also all workplace parking is private
              > > and as I understand it from what I've seen, companies are just as
              > > likely to pass the tax straight on to their employees as they are to
              > > reduce workplace parking.
              > >
              > > Did Nottingham decide not to implement workplace parking charges
              > > then? I thought they were going to be used to fund the tram.
              > >
              > > --
              > > Anzir Boodoo MRes MILT Aff. IRO
              > > transcience, Leeds Innovation Centre, 103 Clarendon Road, LEEDS LS2 9DF
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The New Mobility Agenda is permanently at http://NewMobility.org
              > > To post messages to list: NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com
              > > To unsubscribe: NewMobilityCafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > Free group video/voice-conferencing via http://newmobilitypartners.org
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
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