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Re: [Nasrudin] Re: :) hi gang /bs/abdullah/mohanned

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  • sufisong@aol.com
    Salaam, yosy! sorry for the delay in response, but i have been volunteering in the manufacture of snot and heat these past few days, shambling around barely
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
      Salaam, yosy!


      sorry for the delay in response, but i have been volunteering in the
      manufacture of snot and heat these past few days, shambling around barely able to lift
      my head, shivering and burning up at the same time. such blessings Allah
      gives me when i pray for Union! reminds me of that Rumi verse where dervishes
      sing praises of God until Rumi showed them his scars (or burns) and they all
      call God cruel. This serves as a reminder that some of the smallest of Allah's
      creation could, if God wills, pluck me free of this mortal cloth, and i am
      humbled.



      in a message dated 10/29/04 11:08:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, you write:

      ":)peace is not something to strive for; as the slogan during the
      sixties said: "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"."


      thanks for the slogan's sharp wisdom (see, even at forty-six i can read
      something that makes me want to turn it into a bumper sticker for my car - my 'give
      peace a chance' one has faded beyond recognition). peace is something to
      fall into, like dreams (o, you would enjoyed my barvarian dream last night, with
      an open bazaar full of life on the toes of snow-crested mountains while the
      sun watches and burns), to surrender to, to realize it already is, as you so
      beautifully write:




      "peace is what IS. our natural and basic nature, what we truly are.
      all we have to do is recognize and remain with it, and not follow our
      fears, desires and identifications, and so allow them to drag us away
      from it... (recognizing/accepting apparent identity is not the same
      as identifying with it!)."



      you add:



      "there is adab even in war, and the duty to protect one's community
      may be discharged without succumbing to hate or any other emotion.
      only love can overcome hate... there is a famous story about ali, the
      lion of islam, granting freedom to an enemy he was about to kill,
      after the knight spat in his face - so as not to act as slave of his
      emotion."



      yes this one i've known, but forget too often. burt lancaster represented
      this same scenario in 'to kill a mockingbird' (great movie, btw, imo). your
      reference to protecting one's community can be interpreted only by the definition
      of community, though. if roving bands of men invade our neighborhood, there
      would be bloodshed on both sides as most of our neighbors are armed to the
      teeth (rough crowd here in da hood), discharging their rights to protect their
      families and properties. the only thing i have is a wrist-rocket (slingshot)
      and a baseball bat, but any hint of war near my house, and we'll be strapped in
      the four wheel drive rolling away, spitting on anyone wanting to do us harm.
      ;)

      i served nine years in the u.s. army as a medic. didn't see any war, didn't
      want to, either. if while in, though, had the orders come down, i would have
      gone anywhere and done what was ordered without remorse. the only personal
      karma i was willing to take depended on everything except when protecting my
      unit. in the field of battle, i would have been responsible for the health of my
      platoon, and would have killed and be killed before allowing harm to come to
      any of them. i'm just grateful that never happened to me. there is a part of
      me that grieves over any war, though. (there is still soil to turn, as you
      can tell <g>)



      with this sickness i may say nonsense, so the less these keys produce, the
      better. thank you again for the reminder, yosy. your words are balm to soul.



      Love.


      abdullah j


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • msalhi@uchicago.edu
      ... Again, that is a beautiful tale, but one has to look deeper into the circumstances, two knights dueling are on an equal footing, would Ali have graciously
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
        >
        >"peace is what IS. our natural and basic nature, what we truly are.
        >all we have to do is recognize and remain with it, and not follow our
        >fears, desires and identifications, and so allow them to drag us away
        >from it... (recognizing/accepting apparent identity is not the same
        >as identifying with it!)."
        >
        >I have to agree, this all SOUNDs very beautiful, but I wonder how
        >realistic an option you would feel it to be, if bombs were falling atop
        >what was left of your shelter, your house and those in your entire town
        >were being demolished as a part of a continued policy of collective
        >punishment, and you had been languishing under a decades-long brutal
        >occupation which systematically engaged in ethnic cleansing, killing,
        >torture and, best case scenario, deportation, as merely a matter of
        >fact. Would one be sitting there going, "oh we are one, we are one, our
        >essences are pure, I will not be dragged into thinking that I am really
        >being tortured or believing that my entire family was just wiped out"?
        >
        >
        >"there is adab even in war, and the duty to protect one's community
        >may be discharged without succumbing to hate or any other emotion.
        >only love can overcome hate... there is a famous story about ali, the
        >lion of islam, granting freedom to an enemy he was about to kill,
        >after the knight spat in his face - so as not to act as slave of his
        >emotion."

        Again, that is a beautiful tale, but one has to look deeper into the
        circumstances, two knights dueling are on an equal footing, would 'Ali have
        graciously said, "no I will not kill out of hatred, there are rules and
        regulations" if he was facing an enemy who was using weapons so highly
        advanced, so ruthless, and whose attitude was to mercilessly liquidate him
        and his people, thus rendering giving him a fighting chance practically an
        adolescent fantasy? Sometimes demanding "adab" or manners is truly the
        privilege of the fortunate, the well-endowed, demanding it of the
        oppressed is like demanding that a starving man you've made destitute, eat
        at precisely the right moment, using the exact proper utensils, with the
        "established" proper manners, and then if he fails to do so, because he
        lacks the training or indeed because his hunger gets the best out of him,
        you further deprive him of food on the basis that he is not civilized
        enough and could not control his hunger!

        "if while in, though, had the orders come down, i would have
        gone anywhere and done what was ordered without remorse. the only personal
        karma i was willing to take depended on everything except when protecting my
        unit. in the field of battle, i would have been responsible for the health
        of my
        platoon, and would have killed and be killed before allowing harm to come to
        any of them."

        So you considered your "orders" as being "valid" on the basis that they
        came from an "authority" that you trusted in that situation, right? then
        wouldn't be hard to judge others for doing the same? No-one can determine
        another's "authority" except oneself.... I think to really be able to
        judge another you truly have to walk in their shoes.
      • yosyx
        ... the ... his ... the ... would Ali have ... and ... highly ... liquidate him ... practically an ... the ... adab , though usually translated as courtesy
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
          --- In Nasrudin@yahoogroups.com, msalhi@u... wrote:

          > <snip for brevity>

          >
          > >"there is adab even in war, and the duty to protect one's community
          > >may be discharged without succumbing to hate or any other emotion.
          > >only love can overcome hate... there is a famous story about ali,
          the
          > >lion of islam, granting freedom to an enemy he was about to kill,
          > >after the knight spat in his face - so as not to act as slave of
          his
          > >emotion."


          >
          > Again, that is a beautiful tale, but one has to look deeper into
          the
          > circumstances, two knights dueling are on an equal footing,
          would 'Ali have
          > graciously said, "no I will not kill out of hatred, there are rules
          and
          > regulations" if he was facing an enemy who was using weapons so
          highly
          > advanced, so ruthless, and whose attitude was to mercilessly
          liquidate him
          > and his people, thus rendering giving him a fighting chance
          practically an
          > adolescent fantasy? Sometimes demanding "adab" or manners is truly
          the
          > privilege of the fortunate,



          "adab", though usually translated as "courtesy" (thus "manners") is
          far more than that, and cannot be 'demanded'. like compassion, it is
          a byproduct of acting according to the dictates arising from the
          essence, the 'heart'.
          it can be described as strict adherence to one's truth, similar to
          following "tao" or "dharma". how we conduct ourselves at every
          moment, regardless whether alone or in company, facing a king or a
          pauper, gas station attendant or the guy who just cut in front of us
          in a traffic jam, or our very own. it is arising from realization
          that whoever wherever we meet, in whatever guise - is the same one
          self.
          so is a duty to behave with adab, regardless of apparent
          consequences, with no expectations. but to be treated with adab -
          this is god's grace...

          yosy

          yosy
        • Suriya
          ... The Mulla adds..make sure you run away with their shoes too! Salam Suriya Not wanting to make light of what you said but thinking also , there has to be a
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
            msalhi@... wrote:

            >
            > I think to really be able to
            > judge another you truly have to walk in their shoes.


            The Mulla adds..make sure you run away with their shoes too!

            Salam

            Suriya
            Not wanting to make light of what you said but thinking also , there has
            to be a solution and it has to be a humourous one because the one of the
            problems with people is that they take themselves far too seriously.......
          • yosyx
            ... there has ... of the ... seriously....... ... are you, dear friend? angels fly, because they take themselves lightly (g.k.chesterton) ... in their
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 3, 2004
              --- In Nasrudin@yahoogroups.com, Suriya <jebat56@s...> wrote:
              > msalhi@u... wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > I think to really be able to
              > > judge another you truly have to walk in their shoes.
              >
              >
              > The Mulla adds..make sure you run away with their shoes too!
              >
              > Salam
              >
              > Suriya
              > Not wanting to make light of what you said but thinking also ,
              there has
              > to be a solution and it has to be a humourous one because the one
              of the
              > problems with people is that they take themselves far too
              seriously.......


              :) hi suria, sis, good to hear from you, my favorite doctor... how
              are you, dear friend?

              "angels fly, because they take themselves lightly" (g.k.chesterton)

              :) and as to the saying "not to judge others before you walked a mile
              in their shoes", you are right: then you are safely a mile away - and
              have their shoes, too.

              yosy
            • msalhi@uchicago.edu
              ... Well put! nonetheless, sometimes circumstances can be a little frustrating, guess it is all part of the test!
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 3, 2004
                At 06:43 PM 11/2/2004, you wrote:


                >-
                >"adab", though usually translated as "courtesy" (thus "manners") is
                >far more than that, and cannot be 'demanded'. like compassion, it is
                >a byproduct of acting according to the dictates arising from the
                >essence, the 'heart'.
                >it can be described as strict adherence to one's truth, similar to
                >following "tao" or "dharma". how we conduct ourselves at every
                >moment, regardless whether alone or in company, facing a king or a
                >pauper, gas station attendant or the guy who just cut in front of us
                >in a traffic jam, or our very own. it is arising from realization
                >that whoever wherever we meet, in whatever guise - is the same one
                >self.
                >so is a duty to behave with adab, regardless of apparent
                >consequences, with no expectations. but to be treated with adab -
                >this is god's grace...
                >
                >yosy

                Well put! nonetheless, sometimes circumstances can be a little
                frustrating, guess it is all part of the test!







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              • msalhi@uchicago.edu
                Only, my dear, the problem in this case is not taking oneself seriously, but rather a SERIOUS case of caffeine/nicotine deprivation due to the Ramadan fast,
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 3, 2004
                  Only, my dear, the problem in this case is not taking oneself seriously,
                  but rather a SERIOUS case of caffeine/nicotine deprivation due to the
                  Ramadan fast, the symptoms include frothing at the mouth and barking like a
                  mad dog! I guess running away with the shoes would be a very, very, VERY
                  wise decision!

                  At 09:55 PM 11/2/2004, you wrote:

                  >msalhi@... wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I think to really be able to
                  > > judge another you truly have to walk in their shoes.
                  >
                  >
                  >The Mulla adds..make sure you run away with their shoes too!
                  >
                  >Salam
                  >
                  >Suriya
                  >Not wanting to make light of what you said but thinking also , there has
                  >to be a solution and it has to be a humourous one because the one of the
                  >problems with people is that they take themselves far too seriously.......
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Seeker
                  Before you judge another person you have to walk a few miles in your OWN shoes!
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 3, 2004
                    Before you judge another person you have to walk a
                    few miles in your OWN shoes!

                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    --- Suriya <jebat56@...> wrote:

                    > msalhi@... wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > I think to really be able to
                    > > judge another you truly have to walk in their
                    > shoes.
                    >
                    >
                    > The Mulla adds..make sure you run away with their
                    > shoes too!
                    >
                    > Salam
                    >
                    > Suriya
                    > Not wanting to make light of what you said but
                    > thinking also , there has
                    > to be a solution and it has to be a humourous one
                    > because the one of the
                    > problems with people is that they take themselves
                    > far too seriously.......
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • sufisong@aol.com
                    Salaam! In a message dated 11/2/04 1:56:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, you responded to: if while in, though, had the orders come down, i would have gone
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 6, 2004
                      Salaam!


                      In a message dated 11/2/04 1:56:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, you responded to:

                      "if while in, though, had the orders come down, i would have
                      gone anywhere and done what was ordered without remorse. the only personal
                      karma i was willing to take depended on everything except when protecting my
                      unit. in the field of battle, i would have been responsible for the health
                      of my
                      platoon, and would have killed and be killed before allowing harm to come to
                      any of them."



                      with:


                      "So you considered your "orders" as being "valid" on the basis that they
                      came from an "authority" that you trusted in that situation, right? then
                      wouldn't be hard to judge others for doing the same? No-one can determine
                      another's "authority" except oneself.... I think to really be able to
                      judge another you truly have to walk in their shoes."


                      there is only one Judge, one Authority, you know. if (Allah forbid!) there
                      should come a time when it is kill or be killed for me, i'll put those shoes on
                      and see how they fit. there are times when i'm sure i'd raise up my hands
                      and make myself a big target just to get on with the Wedding, and others when
                      i'd pray for a more true and quicker aim.



                      (comfortable in some worn out swede slippers)


                      abdullah j


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • msalhi@uchicago.edu
                      ... Ain t that the truth! ... (barefoot, dazed and confused!) Muhannad
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 8, 2004
                        >there is only one Judge, one Authority, you know. if (Allah forbid!) there
                        >should come a time when it is kill or be killed for me, i'll put those
                        >shoes on
                        >and see how they fit.

                        Ain't that the truth!


                        >there are times when i'm sure i'd raise up my hands
                        >and make myself a big target just to get on with the Wedding, and others when
                        >i'd pray for a more true and quicker aim.
                        >
                        >Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, but sometimes you gotta wonder, wouldn't it have been
                        >so much easier just to take that bullet in the FIRST place???!!! it
                        >would have been ALL over now!!!

                        (barefoot, dazed and confused!)

                        Muhannad



                        At 06:13 AM 11/6/2004, you wrote:

                        >Salaam!
                        >
                        >
                        >In a message dated 11/2/04 1:56:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, you responded to:
                        >
                        >"if while in, though, had the orders come down, i would have
                        >gone anywhere and done what was ordered without remorse. the only personal
                        >karma i was willing to take depended on everything except when protecting my
                        >unit. in the field of battle, i would have been responsible for the health
                        >of my
                        >platoon, and would have killed and be killed before allowing harm to come to
                        >any of them."
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >with:
                        >
                        >
                        >"So you considered your "orders" as being "valid" on the basis that they
                        >came from an "authority" that you trusted in that situation, right? then
                        >wouldn't be hard to judge others for doing the same? No-one can determine
                        >another's "authority" except oneself.... I think to really be able to
                        >judge another you truly have to walk in their shoes."
                        >
                        >
                        >there is only one Judge, one Authority, you know. if (Allah forbid!) there
                        >should come a time when it is kill or be killed for me, i'll put those
                        >shoes on
                        >and see how they fit. there are times when i'm sure i'd raise up my hands
                        >and make myself a big target just to get on with the Wedding, and others when
                        >i'd pray for a more true and quicker aim.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >(comfortable in some worn out swede slippers)
                        >
                        >
                        >abdullah j
                        >
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
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                        >
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