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Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Printing Choices for AOE - Note Poll!!!

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  • Andrew Deans
    Could not agree more, glitz does sell. Real (historical!) wargamers are an ever diminishing group and we need to attract the younger gamer to the passion and
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 11, 2004
      Could not agree more, glitz does sell.

      Real (historical!) wargamers are an ever diminishing group and we need to attract the younger gamer to the passion and glamour of the period and black and white does not do that! especially in a period of our history that was so colourful.

      I recently picked up a copy of BOFF and at first thought it was a cheap photocopy only to find out later that it was the black and white edition.

      Take a look at WAB, colourful and glossy, it is attracting younger players to a different period away from pure fantasy and it is also bring back gamers that were lost in the wilderness.

      I guess you can tell where my vote went!

      Regards,

      Andrew

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: William D. Ponder
      To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:16 PM
      Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Printing Choices for AOE - Note Poll!!!


      Although I would be happy with the color cover and B/W interior but
      then I been gaming from the middle 1960's using a type written set
      of C,L&S (Column, Line and Square) for my Scruby (sp) 30mm. (36
      castings to a British battalion and 48 to a French battalion.)

      To be realistic, in today's market, glitz sells. Look at Citadel
      Games (Warhammer, Space Marines, ect.) are what today's new gamer
      expects. Even the recent reprint/new edition of Napoleon's Battles
      rules follow this trend.

      I told you what I would be happy with but you and Rich H. need to
      look at capturing your share of the market to relize (sp) any return
      on your investment in these rules.

      ---Bill Ponder

      =====================================================================

      --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "COL (R) Bill Gray"
      <hmgs1@h...> wrote:
      > And please vote. Your opinion is very important to our project as
      we
      > near commercial publication. Thanks.
      >
      > Regards, Bill Gray


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    • Dallas & Delphine Eves
      Have a look at Flames of War WW2 wargaming set of rules...very glitzy, they have had great sales, and had to do reprints when you can spend thousands on
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 11, 2004
        Have a look at "Flames of War" WW2 wargaming set of rules...very glitzy, they have had great sales, and had to do reprints
        when you can spend thousands on your figures and terrain, you want a rule book you are not embarrassed to show to friends and visitors.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Andrew Deans
        To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 11:29 AM
        Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Printing Choices for AOE - Note Poll!!!


        Could not agree more, glitz does sell.

        Real (historical!) wargamers are an ever diminishing group and we need to attract the younger gamer to the passion and glamour of the period and black and white does not do that! especially in a period of our history that was so colourful.

        I recently picked up a copy of BOFF and at first thought it was a cheap photocopy only to find out later that it was the black and white edition.

        Take a look at WAB, colourful and glossy, it is attracting younger players to a different period away from pure fantasy and it is also bring back gamers that were lost in the wilderness.

        I guess you can tell where my vote went!

        Regards,

        Andrew

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: William D. Ponder
        To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:16 PM
        Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Printing Choices for AOE - Note Poll!!!


        Although I would be happy with the color cover and B/W interior but
        then I been gaming from the middle 1960's using a type written set
        of C,L&S (Column, Line and Square) for my Scruby (sp) 30mm. (36
        castings to a British battalion and 48 to a French battalion.)

        To be realistic, in today's market, glitz sells. Look at Citadel
        Games (Warhammer, Space Marines, ect.) are what today's new gamer
        expects. Even the recent reprint/new edition of Napoleon's Battles
        rules follow this trend.

        I told you what I would be happy with but you and Rich H. need to
        look at capturing your share of the market to relize (sp) any return
        on your investment in these rules.

        ---Bill Ponder

        =====================================================================

        --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "COL (R) Bill Gray"
        <hmgs1@h...> wrote:
        > And please vote. Your opinion is very important to our project as
        we
        > near commercial publication. Thanks.
        >
        > Regards, Bill Gray


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      • vondorffy
        Hi! In a previous pole there was something about print on demand. Of course I do not know how it works, but if it is print on demand, can t we have all three
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 30, 2004
          Hi!


          In a previous pole there was something about print on demand. Of
          course I do not know how it works, but if it is print on demand, can't
          we have all three choices available?


          Or two (three hole, spiral) if you have to print the cover separately.


          Vandorffy Peter




          --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "COL (R) Bill Gray"
          <hmgs1@h...> wrote:


          > And please vote. Your opinion is very important to our project as we


          > near commercial publication. Thanks.


          >


          > Regards, Bill Gray
        • Geoff Wootten
          On the other hand the Dave Brown series - General de Brigade and the WW2 ruleset - and any number of Armati rules are all selling very well too. They trade
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 3, 2004
            On the other hand the Dave Brown series - General de Brigade and the
            WW2 ruleset - and any number of Armati rules are all selling very
            well too. They trade off a balance between presentation and price
            point.

            Games Workshop print Warhammer in many thousands at a time and still
            need (?) to charge a heck of a price for a supplement - £15- £18.
            While they look nice for new readers they arent well laid out to use
            in a game.

            I think you have to get your balance right too Bill.

            o proper typesetting, in reasonable size type for us aging wargamers,
            and wihtout mucking about with "period" or special typefaces which
            make it hard to read.

            o decent layout, with index, contents pages, sidebar examples

            o tables drawn up professionally and placed logically, and viewable
            at a glance not where you have to turn a page to see it all. NOt just
            done in Word or exel and pasted in.

            All this is very basic stuff, but is often ingored even in todays new
            releases. Look at DBM et al.

            o Good Paper quality: To be honest, BOFF looked more like a magazine.
            It doesnt have to be glossy mag paper ( and ith should be thicker
            than mag paper anyway), but at least as good as Armati would be my
            guess - think enough to be handled regularly - cos these rules will
            be used by those who buy them, not put on a shelf!

            o Illustrations of game situaitons - line drawings are still fine for
            these. BOFF did them very well and set a new standard. Legacy of
            GLory did a nice job too. Some rules use photos of models (Blitzkrieg
            commander ) which can be OK, but Im not sure how much value they add
            to ther cover price.

            o comprehensive, readable and well laid out reference sheets

            0 Then when all of these are right, you can consider colour.

            It doesnt have to be full colour thorughout. A decent cover is
            essential, but in a saddle stiched foramt it is also quite possible
            to put colour on just a couple of pages like they do in the wargames
            mags.

            General de Brigade, for example, uses it in the centre pages only,
            and leaves B&W pics in the rest of the booklet. Probably too many of
            em! The print quality isnt top drawer either - a bit smudgy for my
            tastes, but useable at least.

            So start with the market price and work back to your costs. The
            danger is producing a set of rules which look amazing, but sit in
            your garage for the next five years while you sell enough of them to
            cover the extra printing costs of going colour.

            I wouldnt expect any commercial set of rules worth having to cost
            less than a tenner (£10), and sometimes you can pay more than a
            tenner for Rubbish (those orrible Petit wotsit rules from ChipShop
            games or whatever cost more than that. Rip off). I guess at £12 or
            £14 I will buy them if they look possibly interesting. IVe still got
            Grand Manner on my shleves, unplayed and a host of other similar
            stuff in pristine an dunplayed state - but bought and read.

            To pay more than that, and get to the £18 price point that seems to
            be above this level then it has to be either 1) a set I really want _
            I KNOW I want cos I have played them and like them, or the club uses
            nothing else - or 2) they offer something extra. So Bliztkrieg
            commnader and GHQs microarmor rules got my £18 cos they both had all
            the data in there, TOEs, and scenarios. Come to think of it, so did
            Naps Battles at that sort of dosh. And 3) yes there is enough colour
            in them to be appealing and inviting. But yhat hasnt stopped us
            playing Spearhead a lot at the club, and GHQs not at all.

            The question is, with all of the Nappy rules on the market, will you
            persuade someone to part with a premium (£18) price on a set of rules
            just because they contain colour pictures? Empires have tried this
            and failed miserably. You will get your sales from the AOE list
            members I am sure, but you need to sell to a much wider audience than
            that.

            One other point, having Napoleonic flair/period atmos is essential
            too - you dont necessarily need colour for that, but you do need
            atmos. Legacy of Glory ( unplayable!) NAps Batts and GEneral de
            Brigade have it, even Empires have it and have had sale ssuccess.
            Shako doesnt - it sells on other factors. HGaving the spirit of the
            first empire can defintiely pull the sales through which otherwise
            would fall, and go a long way to make up less colour, or other
            compromises - and I would include BOFF Magazine format and gaps in
            the writing in that.

            Geoff



            --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Dallas & Delphine
            Eves" <ND.Eves@x> wrote:
            > Have a look at "Flames of War" WW2 wargaming set of rules...very
            glitzy, they have had great sales, and had to do reprints
            > when you can spend thousands on your figures and terrain, you want
            a rule book you are not embarrassed to show to friends and visitors.
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Andrew Deans
            > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 11:29 AM
            > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Printing Choices for
            AOE - Note Poll!!!
            >
            >
            > Could not agree more, glitz does sell.
            >
            > Real (historical!) wargamers are an ever diminishing group and we
            need to attract the younger gamer to the passion and glamour of the
            period and black and white does not do that! especially in a period
            of our history that was so colourful.
            >
            > I recently picked up a copy of BOFF and at first thought it was a
            cheap photocopy only to find out later that it was the black and
            white edition.
            >
            > Take a look at WAB, colourful and glossy, it is attracting
            younger players to a different period away from pure fantasy and it
            is also bring back gamers that were lost in the wilderness.
            >
            > I guess you can tell where my vote went!
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Andrew
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: William D. Ponder
            > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:16 PM
            > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Printing Choices for AOE -
            Note Poll!!!
            >
            >
            > Although I would be happy with the color cover and B/W interior
            but
            > then I been gaming from the middle 1960's using a type written
            set
            > of C,L&S (Column, Line and Square) for my Scruby (sp) 30mm. (36
            > castings to a British battalion and 48 to a French battalion.)
            >
            > To be realistic, in today's market, glitz sells. Look at
            Citadel
            > Games (Warhammer, Space Marines, ect.) are what today's new
            gamer
            > expects. Even the recent reprint/new edition of Napoleon's
            Battles
            > rules follow this trend.
            >
            > I told you what I would be happy with but you and Rich H. need
            to
            > look at capturing your share of the market to relize (sp) any
            return
            > on your investment in these rules.
            >
            > ---Bill Ponder
            >
            >
            =====================================================================
            >
            > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "COL (R) Bill
            Gray"
            > <hmgs1@h...> wrote:
            > > And please vote. Your opinion is very important to our
            project as
            > we
            > > near commercial publication. Thanks.
            > >
            > > Regards, Bill Gray
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------
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            >
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            >
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            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
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            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            ----------
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            >
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            >
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