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Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Devastating fire

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  • Derek Hodge
    ... This British wargamer plays mainly US rules for most of the reasons you have mentioned. Derek Hodge
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 27, 2001
      At 20:10 26/01/01 , you wrote:
      >Otherwise the one or two things I have noticed is that British gamers seem
      >to prefer a much lower level - very, very tactical - of combat than do we
      >Americans. I know when Empire first came out with a figure scale of 1:60,
      >enabling whole battles to be run, some of my fellow NATO officers in the
      >British Army of the Rhine were mortified that the scale was above 1:20 and
      >the amount of important detail lost. Also, seems to me that us colonists
      >tend to be much bigger command & control advocates than folks back home in
      >Mother England.

      This British wargamer plays mainly US rules for most of the reasons you
      have mentioned.


      Derek Hodge <dmc.hodge@...>
    • johnkyss
      Dear Col.Bill, I believe there are several reasons why there is a cultural differance in the size of games played in our respective countries.. We British
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 17, 2012
        Dear Col.Bill,
        I believe there are several reasons why there is a 'cultural' differance in the size of games played in our respective countries..
        We British live in a very densly populated country in which land values are very high especially in the cities. Consequently,our homes are more compact (i.e. affordable!)and our room sizes are therefore correspondingly smaller(and also fewer) than the average American home. The 'basement' is almost unknown in the U.K. unless you have a large 19th Century home with a cellar (usually damp!)
        The majority of British gamers usually have to put up with 6foot x 4foot gaming table at home because of the avaiable space. We only get to play really big games if we associate with a club and, quite frankly, that is the only way many of us can get to play most of the AOE & AOH scenarios.
        Size and space are therefore the absolute criteria!
        Secondly, many British gamers play across multiple periods which means we tend to have numerous but smaller sized armies due to cost and painting time constraints.
        Thirdly, our gaming traditions originated with rules designed for the only available figures which were 25mm. Hence the smaller 'tactical' scale of games. (H.G.Wells used 54mm 'Toy Soldiers'!)
        Subsequent British rules have tended to perpetuate these small game scales despite smaller figures becoming available.
        It is not surprising therefore that 15mm and then 6mm figures were pioneered by the British manufacturers to satisfy a need to cram more units onto our 6'x4'gaming boards!.
        Even our gaming convention competitions perpetuate these small scales - hence the enormous popularity of the DBA rules.
        I trust my comments will alleviate your puzzlement!
        P.S. I am not entering into a debate on national bias (too much of a minefield) except to say that we British made a big mistake when we gave up our real national 'sport' (ie.fighting the French - at which we were rather good)and took up football instead!(at which we are rather poor - the Germans always thrash us, alas).
        regards, John.

        --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Gray" <hmgs1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I honestly don't know why there seems to be a difference between English and American game design, and admittedly I haven't taken a look at a set of British rules lately, but it does exist.
        >
        > Certainly because I am an American (US type) I might have more of an objective perspective on the Napoleonic Wars since I am reasonably detached from the period culturally and historically. Likewise for my British cousins when they look at the American Civil War, and this will show up at least in unit rating tabulations.
        >
        > Otherwise the one or two things I have noticed is that British gamers seem to prefer a much lower level - very, very tactical - of combat than do we Americans. I know when Empire first came out with a figure scale of 1:60, enabling whole battles to be run, some of my fellow NATO officers in the British Army of the Rhine were mortified that the scale was above 1:20 and the amount of important detail lost. Also, seems to me that us colonists tend to be much bigger command & control advocates than folks back home in Mother England.
        >
        > Still not real sure why.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
        > From: jean-marc.largeaud@...
        > Reply-To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:50:52 -0000
        >
        > ><html><body>
        > ><tt>
        > >To Derek,  Bill (and all)<BR>
        > ><BR>
        > >1.      Napoleonic F&F may be played wih the scale you have <BR>
        > >mentioned, but I do prefer the Army level Game, working by <BR>
        > >brigades/divisions. This is personal of course. This is the only <BR>
        > >way to re-fight Leipzig with few players and without wasting the <BR>
        > >time needed for Legacy of Glory (a good set), or Empire V( <BR>
        > >another good one, but I still not understand the road taken after <BR>
        > >Empire III. I was waiting an Empire III bis with some simplified <BR>
        > >rules and a real drift towards an army level game …I received <BR>
        > >Empire V which is very different). <BR>
        > ><BR>
        > >2) Guards and national pride. Some of the French existing <BR>
        > >Napoleonic rules give high rates of fire for French Guards and for <BR>
        > >British Troops (as an aside, all are very cumbersome rules for <BR>
        > >divisional battles). But after all it's a way to explain why Napoleon <BR>
        > >lost in 1815…<BR>
        > ><BR>
        > >3)I have read many rules and came to the conclusions that <BR>
        > >English and Americans wargamers /rulemakers do have very <BR>
        > >different perspectives about wargames. I 'd want to know if this is <BR>
        > >linked to their relationship with war and/or games ? Under this <BR>
        > >respect an intriguing fact is that original F&F rules are born in the <BR>
        > >USA…<BR>
        > >--- In NapoleonicFireandFury@y..., Derek Hodge <BR>
        > ><dmc.hodge@v...> wrote:<BR>
        > >> At 21:46 25/01/01 , you wrote:<BR>
        > >> >Nevertheless, I think Jean-Marc has a point. I always look to <BR>
        > >British<BR>
        > >> >authors for some of the most objective writing on the <BR>
        > >American Civil<BR>
        > >> >War due to their not being born in Atlanta or Boston.  On the <BR>
        > >other<BR>
        > >> >hand, I an American, look at, say, Bruce Quarrie's rules <BR>
        > >included in<BR>
        > >> >the book Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature and find them <BR>
        > >to be very<BR>
        > >> >biased in favor of the British, with morale ratings way too high <BR>
        > >for<BR>
        > >> >many units. Yet you'd better not even whisper a hint of <BR>
        > >criticism to<BR>
        > >> >this South Carolinian about Robert E. Lee!  Seems on both <BR>
        > >sides of<BR>
        > >> >the Atlantic things like national pride are still a factor. No big<BR>
        > >> >deal really as no one will ever know for sure.<BR>
        > >> <BR>
        > >> Agree completely.<BR>
        > >> <BR>
        > >> I've seen wargames rules from this side of the pond with army <BR>
        > >lists that do <BR>
        > >> not allow the British to have anything other than elite infantry.<BR>
        > >> Even provisional battalions or freshly raised regiments straight <BR>
        > >off the <BR>
        > >> boat are supermen.<BR>
        > >> <BR>
        > >> Many British wargamers don't seem to be willing to believe that <BR>
        > >there were <BR>
        > >> some pretty bad battalions about.<BR>
        > >> Derek Hodge <dmc.hodge@v...><BR>
        > ><BR>
        > ></tt>
        > >
        > ><br>
        > >
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      • Mike
        I presume that in the USA that when you are asked what is your unit? you would reply with something like 101st. Airborne A Division. Whereas we would reply
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 2, 2012
          I presume that in the USA that "when you are asked what is your unit?" you would reply with something like "101st. Airborne"
          A Division. Whereas we would reply 23rd. or Royal Welch, a Battalion.
          I like to see the colours of all the units in a brigade.
          for a Battalion, 30 figures (600 men) looks right in 15mm. and a compromise with a single rank. about a foot in line. We're getting over it, gradually. Mainly because even Waterloo would be immpossible.

          With AoE it's possible, but even then an assault on LHS or HMont looks odd, a French Division in line can hide behind the Farmhouse.

          If that one fault is ignored, then the rules are the best I've played.
          in answer to the skirmisher problem. In this scale, as a separate unit, no mater how good your die roll, you will never kill anything, it's no use playing big and thiking small.

          Regards

          Mike


          --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "johnkyss" <johnkyss@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Col.Bill,
          > I believe there are several reasons why there is a 'cultural' differance in the size of games played in our respective countries..
          > We British live in a very densly populated country in which land values are very high especially in the cities. Consequently,our homes are more compact (i.e. affordable!)and our room sizes are therefore correspondingly smaller(and also fewer) than the average American home. The 'basement' is almost unknown in the U.K. unless you have a large 19th Century home with a cellar (usually damp!)
          > The majority of British gamers usually have to put up with 6foot x 4foot gaming table at home because of the avaiable space. We only get to play really big games if we associate with a club and, quite frankly, that is the only way many of us can get to play most of the AOE & AOH scenarios.
          > Size and space are therefore the absolute criteria!
          > Secondly, many British gamers play across multiple periods which means we tend to have numerous but smaller sized armies due to cost and painting time constraints.
          > Thirdly, our gaming traditions originated with rules designed for the only available figures which were 25mm. Hence the smaller 'tactical' scale of games. (H.G.Wells used 54mm 'Toy Soldiers'!)
          > Subsequent British rules have tended to perpetuate these small game scales despite smaller figures becoming available.
          > It is not surprising therefore that 15mm and then 6mm figures were pioneered by the British manufacturers to satisfy a need to cram more units onto our 6'x4'gaming boards!.
          > Even our gaming convention competitions perpetuate these small scales - hence the enormous popularity of the DBA rules.
          > I trust my comments will alleviate your puzzlement!
          > P.S. I am not entering into a debate on national bias (too much of a minefield) except to say that we British made a big mistake when we gave up our real national 'sport' (ie.fighting the French - at which we were rather good)and took up football instead!(at which we are rather poor - the Germans always thrash us, alas).
          > regards, John.
          >
          > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Gray" <hmgs1@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > I honestly don't know why there seems to be a difference between English and American game design, and admittedly I haven't taken a look at a set of British rules lately, but it does exist.
          > >
          > > Certainly because I am an American (US type) I might have more of an objective perspective on the Napoleonic Wars since I am reasonably detached from the period culturally and historically. Likewise for my British cousins when they look at the American Civil War, and this will show up at least in unit rating tabulations.
          > >
          > > Otherwise the one or two things I have noticed is that British gamers seem to prefer a much lower level - very, very tactical - of combat than do we Americans. I know when Empire first came out with a figure scale of 1:60, enabling whole battles to be run, some of my fellow NATO officers in the British Army of the Rhine were mortified that the scale was above 1:20 and the amount of important detail lost. Also, seems to me that us colonists tend to be much bigger command & control advocates than folks back home in Mother England.
          > >
          > > Still not real sure why.
          > >
          > > Bill
          > >
          > > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
          > > From: jean-marc.largeaud@
          > > Reply-To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:50:52 -0000
          > >
          > > ><html><body>
          > > ><tt>
          > > >To Derek,  Bill (and all)<BR>
          > > ><BR>
          > > >1.      Napoleonic F&F may be played wih the scale you have <BR>
          > > >mentioned, but I do prefer the Army level Game, working by <BR>
          > > >brigades/divisions. This is personal of course. This is the only <BR>
          > > >way to re-fight Leipzig with few players and without wasting the <BR>
          > > >time needed for Legacy of Glory (a good set), or Empire V( <BR>
          > > >another good one, but I still not understand the road taken after <BR>
          > > >Empire III. I was waiting an Empire III bis with some simplified <BR>
          > > >rules and a real drift towards an army level game …I received <BR>
          > > >Empire V which is very different). <BR>
          > > ><BR>
          > > >2) Guards and national pride. Some of the French existing <BR>
          > > >Napoleonic rules give high rates of fire for French Guards and for <BR>
          > > >British Troops (as an aside, all are very cumbersome rules for <BR>
          > > >divisional battles). But after all it's a way to explain why Napoleon <BR>
          > > >lost in 1815…<BR>
          > > ><BR>
          > > >3)I have read many rules and came to the conclusions that <BR>
          > > >English and Americans wargamers /rulemakers do have very <BR>
          > > >different perspectives about wargames. I 'd want to know if this is <BR>
          > > >linked to their relationship with war and/or games ? Under this <BR>
          > > >respect an intriguing fact is that original F&F rules are born in the <BR>
          > > >USA…<BR>
          > > >--- In NapoleonicFireandFury@y..., Derek Hodge <BR>
          > > ><dmc.hodge@v...> wrote:<BR>
          > > >> At 21:46 25/01/01 , you wrote:<BR>
          > > >> >Nevertheless, I think Jean-Marc has a point. I always look to <BR>
          > > >British<BR>
          > > >> >authors for some of the most objective writing on the <BR>
          > > >American Civil<BR>
          > > >> >War due to their not being born in Atlanta or Boston.  On the <BR>
          > > >other<BR>
          > > >> >hand, I an American, look at, say, Bruce Quarrie's rules <BR>
          > > >included in<BR>
          > > >> >the book Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature and find them <BR>
          > > >to be very<BR>
          > > >> >biased in favor of the British, with morale ratings way too high <BR>
          > > >for<BR>
          > > >> >many units. Yet you'd better not even whisper a hint of <BR>
          > > >criticism to<BR>
          > > >> >this South Carolinian about Robert E. Lee!  Seems on both <BR>
          > > >sides of<BR>
          > > >> >the Atlantic things like national pride are still a factor. No big<BR>
          > > >> >deal really as no one will ever know for sure.<BR>
          > > >> <BR>
          > > >> Agree completely.<BR>
          > > >> <BR>
          > > >> I've seen wargames rules from this side of the pond with army <BR>
          > > >lists that do <BR>
          > > >> not allow the British to have anything other than elite infantry.<BR>
          > > >> Even provisional battalions or freshly raised regiments straight <BR>
          > > >off the <BR>
          > > >> boat are supermen.<BR>
          > > >> <BR>
          > > >> Many British wargamers don't seem to be willing to believe that <BR>
          > > >there were <BR>
          > > >> some pretty bad battalions about.<BR>
          > > >> Derek Hodge <dmc.hodge@v...><BR>
          > > ><BR>
          > > ></tt>
          > > >
          > > ><br>
          > > >
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