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RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Cavalry vs Infantry in the open - the 5" rule (sorry - old topic!)

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  • Wilbur Gray
    Masse is just the word I used for BOFF field column and is not the same as the Battalion Masse used by the Austrians. This is an interesting discussion. What
    Message 1 of 46 , Nov 20, 2012
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      Masse is just the word I used for BOFF field column and is not the same as the Battalion Masse used by the Austrians.
      This is an interesting discussion. What you are talking about is yet another direct BOFF import, and for the life of me I've never heard of an issue raised. Yet I can easily understand your concern. I wonder why it never came up in ACW F&F.
      Lowell, what do you think (assuming you are out there)?

      Warmest regards,

      /// BILL ///

      Wilbur E Gray
      Colonel, US Army (Ret)
      AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

      http://www.ageofeagles.com


      "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides




      To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
      From: mike.leese@...
      Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:20:28 +0000
      Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Cavalry vs Infantry in the open - the 5" rule (sorry - old topic!)


























      Who actually used it for infantry and who for cavalry?





      Was it just the Austrians ?





      Mike





      Sent from my iPhone





      On 19 Nov 2012, at 23:52, "Drew Jarman" <andrewjarman@...> wrote:





      > Masse is only useful because it doesnt count enfiladed at all times. If it did its use would be much curtailed and its probably the one huge error in the FP table that needs urgently addressing as its totally unhistoric. Of course if both sides do it you end up with stalemate.


      >


      > Best to use LoBS and attach as much artillery as possible to make the enemies entrance as unhappy as possible.


      >


      > Of course the French come unstuck when faced with Austrian brigades of 18 stands in masse. Personally I use my Austrian infantry in Regimental blocks if possible which still gives them lots of 8-10 stand brigade sized units to fight off the French.


      >


      > Drew


      > Sent from my iPhone


      >


      > On 19 Nov 2012, at 23:26, Mike Leese <mike.leese@...> wrote:


      >


      > > Who's dice? ;-)


      > >


      > > Mike


      > >


      > > Sent from my iPhone


      > >


      > > On 19 Nov 2012, at 23:24, "Phil Callcott" <armatwom@...> wrote:


      > >


      > > > Oh yes!


      > > >


      > > > And it's very, very handy formation for them.


      > > >


      > > > To win at AoE, put all foot and horse into masse. fill the space thus created between brigades with massed (not grand) batteries.


      > > >


      > > > Then hit hard and fast.


      > > >


      > > > Masse means that you will not have much frontage, your foe will find himself facing vast open spaces, but while he attacks fresh air and captures empty ground your concentrated forces will achieve local superiority and overwhelm the enemy.


      > > >


      > > > Of course to do so requires the appropriate die rolls, on Friday night one purple patch of four rolls yielded: - "0", "0", "8" and "0" in that order - ask Allan!


      > > > Regards Phil


      > > >


      > > > --- On Mon, 19/11/12, Mike Leese <mike.leese@...> wrote:


      > > >


      > > > From: Mike Leese <mike.leese@...>


      > > > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Cavalry vs Infantry in the open - the 5" rule (sorry - old topic!)


      > > > To: "NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com" <NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com>


      > > > Date: Monday, 19 November, 2012, 22:45


      > > >


      > > >


      > > >


      > > > Does masse apply to cavalry???


      > > >


      > > > Mike


      > > >


      > > > Sent from my iPhone


      > > >


      > > > On 19 Nov 2012, at 22:23, "Phil Callcott" <armatwom@...> wrote:


      > > >


      > > > > Cavalry in masse becomes omnipotent.


      > > > >


      > > > > Able to wheel left or right without limitation, what about countercharges?


      > > > >


      > > > > Could a cavalry masse being charged in flank wheel to face and countercharge?


      > > > >


      > > > > Methinks this is one can of worms!


      > > > >


      > > > > Regards, Phil


      > > > >


      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      > > > >


      > > > >


      > > >


      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      > > >


      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      > > >


      > > >


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    • Allan F Mountford
      [Re-posted] Hi Bill, (O-6 type), 21 November 2012 Rick Caras informed me that my name came up in a discussion of the Field Column and Masse.
      Message 46 of 46 , Nov 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        [Re-posted]

        Hi Bill, (O-6 type), 21 November 2012

        Rick Caras informed me that my name came up in a discussion of the Field
        Column and Masse.

        Rick wrote the following analysis:
        "BTW, your name has been invoked by Bill Gray on the AOE Yahoo group in a
        discussion on field columnand their verbatim transport from BF&F into AoE.
        You or Rich might want to take a look. Given the two differentscales of the
        game, my thoughts:BF&F = 2 stands = about a mid-war regiment [300-400] men,
        so two stand frontage x YY deep is a column ofregiments one behind the
        other. But the regiments are in line of battle.
        AoE = 2 stands @ 320-360 each = a full TOE battalion of 600-720 men; so they
        too represent a column of battalions one behind the other....and those
        Battalions can be in line or whatever, as AoE doesn't distinguish that level
        of formation.
        BUT, the ground scale is also different. AoE is 2-3 times BF&F...AND the
        standard stands, 1" deep vs 3/4 or 7/8"..so a 10 stand brigade 2x5 deep,
        means the brigade depth is 600 yards deep! In BF&F its 200 yards [40-60
        yards//inch = avg 50 yards]. Of course depth in both rules set are distorted
        in favor of frontages & the reality of figure base size
        requirements[especially cavalry & artillery].
        In the Napoleonic era columns of platoons/divisions etc within a battalion
        were formed at various depths [1/4 distance, up to "full" normal distances
        from divisions of men for deployment purposes]; I do not believe this is so
        in the ACW [will check my regulations]."End of message.

        I agree whole heartily with Rick about the representation of the ACW Field
        Column. I have no clue about the Masse. It's not my era.A little
        background about my use of the Field Column in BF&F. Since BF&F allows a FC
        to wheel up to 360 degrees in a turn, I would advance a FC beyond the flank
        of an unsuspecting opponent, wheel 90 degrees or more and then slam into
        their flank (-3 DRM) while another unit(s) hit him from the front. My
        gaming buddies (?) called it the "Ferrari Move". The move inspired many
        house rules that were written to forbid the maneuver;-( NOTE: I do wear
        driving gloves when ever I drive;-) When play testing RF&F, Rich was made
        aware of the Ferrari Move and originally limited the FC to a 45 degree wheel
        but I talked him into a maximum 90 degree wheel but a charge can only be
        made with a maximum 45 degree wheel. No more Ferrari Move. Boo hoo! In
        RF&F games that I GM, I allow FC to wheel without limit when the unit is
        just maneuvering but do limit the FC to 45 degrees when making a charge. I
        still use FC in BF&F and RF&F to assault a fortified line but I try to
        screen it with a unit in extended line in the advance and prep the defender
        with as much artillery as I can muster before I go in. And that's what I
        know about FC and Masse.

        Best, Lowell D Hamilton

        -----Original Message-----
        From: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wilbur Gray
        Sent: 20 November 2012 13:16
        To: napoleonicfireandfury@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Cavalry vs Infantry in the open - the
        5" rule (sorry - old topic!)

        Masse is just the word I used for BOFF field column and is not the same as
        the Battalion Masse used by the Austrians.
        This is an interesting discussion. What you are talking about is yet another
        direct BOFF import, and for the life of me I've never heard of an issue
        raised. Yet I can easily understand your concern. I wonder why it never came
        up in ACW F&F.
        Lowell, what do you think (assuming you are out there)?

        Warmest regards,

        /// BILL ///

        Wilbur E Gray
        Colonel, US Army (Ret)
        AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

        http://www.ageofeagles.com


        "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its
        thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides




        To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        From: mike.leese@...
        Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:20:28 +0000
        Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Cavalry vs Infantry in the open - the
        5" rule (sorry - old topic!)


























        Who actually used it for infantry and who for cavalry?





        Was it just the Austrians ?





        Mike





        Sent from my iPhone





        On 19 Nov 2012, at 23:52, "Drew Jarman" <andrewjarman@...> wrote:





        > Masse is only useful because it doesnt count enfiladed at all times. If it
        did its use would be much curtailed and its probably the one huge error in
        the FP table that needs urgently addressing as its totally unhistoric. Of
        course if both sides do it you end up with stalemate.


        >


        > Best to use LoBS and attach as much artillery as possible to make the
        enemies entrance as unhappy as possible.


        >


        > Of course the French come unstuck when faced with Austrian brigades of 18
        stands in masse. Personally I use my Austrian infantry in Regimental blocks
        if possible which still gives them lots of 8-10 stand brigade sized units to
        fight off the French.


        >


        > Drew


        > Sent from my iPhone


        >


        > On 19 Nov 2012, at 23:26, Mike Leese <mike.leese@...> wrote:


        >


        > > Who's dice? ;-)


        > >


        > > Mike


        > >


        > > Sent from my iPhone


        > >


        > > On 19 Nov 2012, at 23:24, "Phil Callcott" <armatwom@...> wrote:


        > >


        > > > Oh yes!


        > > >


        > > > And it's very, very handy formation for them.


        > > >


        > > > To win at AoE, put all foot and horse into masse. fill the space thus
        created between brigades with massed (not grand) batteries.


        > > >


        > > > Then hit hard and fast.


        > > >


        > > > Masse means that you will not have much frontage, your foe will find
        himself facing vast open spaces, but while he attacks fresh air and captures
        empty ground your concentrated forces will achieve local superiority and
        overwhelm the enemy.


        > > >


        > > > Of course to do so requires the appropriate die rolls, on Friday night
        one purple patch of four rolls yielded: - "0", "0", "8" and "0" in that
        order - ask Allan!


        > > > Regards Phil


        > > >


        > > > --- On Mon, 19/11/12, Mike Leese <mike.leese@...> wrote:


        > > >


        > > > From: Mike Leese <mike.leese@...>


        > > > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Cavalry vs Infantry in the open -
        the 5" rule (sorry - old topic!)


        > > > To: "NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com"
        <NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com>


        > > > Date: Monday, 19 November, 2012, 22:45


        > > >


        > > >


        > > >


        > > > Does masse apply to cavalry???


        > > >


        > > > Mike


        > > >


        > > > Sent from my iPhone


        > > >


        > > > On 19 Nov 2012, at 22:23, "Phil Callcott" <armatwom@...>
        wrote:


        > > >


        > > > > Cavalry in masse becomes omnipotent.


        > > > >


        > > > > Able to wheel left or right without limitation, what about
        countercharges?


        > > > >


        > > > > Could a cavalry masse being charged in flank wheel to face and
        countercharge?


        > > > >


        > > > > Methinks this is one can of worms!


        > > > >


        > > > > Regards, Phil


        > > > >


        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        > > > >


        > > > >


        > > >


        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        > > >


        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        > > >


        > > >


        > >


        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        > >


        > >


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