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Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?

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  • The Great Enemy
    Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist me on
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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      Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist me on this?
      I am resigning myself to using NB system for the scenario and simply doubling the figures for all the participants.
      Thank you,
      Fred
    • Allan Mountford
      Fred You will need a 20 long table to play the twin battles as a single scenario. The OOB data is fairly accessible. What sources are you having difficulties
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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        Fred



        You will need a 20' long table to play the twin battles as a single
        scenario. The OOB data is fairly accessible. What sources are you having
        difficulties with?



        - Allan



        From: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The Great Enemy
        Sent: 02 September 2011 11:52
        To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?





        Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many
        conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist
        me on this?
        I am resigning myself to using NB system for the scenario and simply
        doubling the figures for all the participants.
        Thank you,
        Fred





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Drew Jarman
        LOL That’s sounds like a big exercise considering that the two battles should be fought in ignorance of each other. I am nearly done building my 1806
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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          LOL That’s sounds like a big exercise considering that the two battles should be fought in ignorance of each other.

          I am nearly done building my 1806 Prussians for a refight myself but of a PBEM battle that ended our campaign two years back.

          90 k a side, Napoleon and guard, Murat and cuirassiers, Lannes, Bernadotte and Davout v Brunswick, Ruchel, Wurttemberg, Orange, Smettau, Wartensleben and Saxe-Weimar

          Our battlefield was only 8’ 4’ for 180k of troops.

          I can probably also field Hohenlohe, Soult, Augereau and Ney for both sides in full for Jena-Auerstadt but haven't done the OOB yet.

          I have made the Prussians Regular except for their Guard Division and the grenadiers, hussars and kurassiers. The French infantry are all regular except for Davout’s corp infantry which are all Elite. I decided on this because Ney, Lannes and Augereau all formed converged grenadier formations within their corps to give it some added punch which suggested they didn’t have the confidence in their corps as a whole to perform as well as Davout’s corps. The French cavalry is mainly regular except for their cuirassiers, some of the dragoon and light brigades which are Elite.
          Ney’s Corp had some Bavarians in it which performed badly and I think these should be rated as Conscript as should the dreadful Foot Dragoon division attached to the guard.

          Drew

          From: Allan Mountford
          Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 12:33 PM
          To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?


          Fred

          You will need a 20' long table to play the twin battles as a single
          scenario. The OOB data is fairly accessible. What sources are you having
          difficulties with?

          - Allan

          From: mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury%40yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The Great Enemy
          Sent: 02 September 2011 11:52
          To: mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury%40yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?

          Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many
          conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist
          me on this?
          I am resigning myself to using NB system for the scenario and simply
          doubling the figures for all the participants.
          Thank you,
          Fred

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Brown
          I d start with the NB, but only add @ 20% (usually 1-2 stands, round up). Beware that sometimes NB was split to make units of the right size you may want
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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            I'd start with the NB, but only add @ 20% (usually 1-2 stands, round up). Beware that sometimes NB was "split" to make units of the "right size" you may want to review sources and see if it was really two units vs. one



            Michael Brown
            mwsaber6@...


            From: The Great Enemy
            Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:51 AM
            To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?



            Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist me on this?
            I am resigning myself to using NB system for the scenario and simply doubling the figures for all the participants.
            Thank you,
            Fred





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Doug Boggess
            I will fish out my OOBs, etc. in about 5 hours and e-mail them to you. I think one or two Prussian grenadier stand counts are off, and where the two to three
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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              I will fish out my OOBs, etc. in about 5 hours and e-mail them to you. I think one or two Prussian grenadier stand counts are off, and where the two to three stands of saxe-weimar jagers were in the Auerstadt OOB could be changed. These files are buried at home. Once I posted here how many dismounted dragoons I thought there were at Jena, as based on the number of dragoons per regiment that did not have horses, and then later confirmed those numbers in more than a couple of sources, and was told here there were two to four as times as many...so use my numbers, don't use my numbers, whatever pleases you.

              Usually I add one or two stands per unit to the NB figures.




              To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
              From: mfflfred@...
              Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:51:44 +0000
              Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?






              Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist me on this?
              I am resigning myself to using NB system for the scenario and simply doubling the figures for all the participants.
              Thank you,
              Fred






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Drew Jarman
              The best OOB I have seen has come from http://www.napoleongames.com/ Operational Studied Group no 5 Special Study The Coming Storm 1806 Rossbach Revenged.
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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                The best OOB I have seen has come from
                http://www.napoleongames.com/
                Operational Studied Group no 5 Special Study The Coming Storm 1806 Rossbach
                Revenged.

                That's what I will be basing my OOB on for a historic refight.

                Kevin Zucker Publications are some of the best researched out there AFAIK.

                Drew

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Doug Boggess
                Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:26 PM
                To: napoleonicfireandfury@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?


                I will fish out my OOBs, etc. in about 5 hours and e-mail them to you. I
                think one or two Prussian grenadier stand counts are off, and where the two
                to three stands of saxe-weimar jagers were in the Auerstadt OOB could be
                changed. These files are buried at home. Once I posted here how many
                dismounted dragoons I thought there were at Jena, as based on the number of
                dragoons per regiment that did not have horses, and then later confirmed
                those numbers in more than a couple of sources, and was told here there were
                two to four as times as many...so use my numbers, don't use my numbers,
                whatever pleases you.

                Usually I add one or two stands per unit to the NB figures.




                To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                From: mfflfred@...
                Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:51:44 +0000
                Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?






                Has anyone did Jena or Auersdtat as a AOE scenario? I am looking at too many
                conflicting sources and I am struggling on the conversion. Can anyone assist
                me on this?
                I am resigning myself to using NB system for the scenario and simply
                doubling the figures for all the participants.
                Thank you,
                Fred






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at
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              • The Great Enemy
                Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Doug sent me some files he had and I am going to use them. The gaming group I am with are planning on using fighting these
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 2, 2011
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                  Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Doug sent me some files he had and I am going to use them.
                  The gaming group I am with are planning on using fighting these battles on separate times so we won't have to use the 20' table!
                  Now back to the hard part- painting up the prussians and saxons for this game.
                  Drew thanks again for that link I may just buy those games as that company does have some interesting products for this time period!

                  Best regards to everyone,
                  Fred
                • william haggart
                  Drew wrote: I decided on this because Ney, Lannes and Augereau all formed converged grenadier formations within their corps to give it some added punch which
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 3, 2011
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                    Drew wrote:
                    I decided on this because Ney, Lannes and Augereau all formed converged
                    grenadier formations within their corps to give it some added punch which
                    suggested they didn't have the confidence in their corps as a whole to
                    perform as well as Davout's corps. ...Kevin Zucker Publications are some of
                    the best researched out there AFAIK.

                    Drew:
                    A lack of confidence in their troops isn't why Ney, Lannes, and Augereau
                    formed converged grenadier formations. 1. The elite formations were formed
                    of both grenadier and carbinier companies. 2. Augereau didn't form elite
                    battalions at Jena, 3. Forming converged elite battalions was something that
                    Davout never did, regardless of the quality of his troops. 4. Converging
                    elites was no more showing a lack of confidence in regular troops than
                    forming the Imperial Guard or converged Grenadier Divisions at Austerlitz.
                    4. Lannes didn't form a converged elite unit at Saalfield, which he won. So,
                    four days later, he lost confidence in his troops?

                    I can't speak to Kevin's other publications, but his Study #5, "1806: the
                    Coming Storm" relies on a very limited set of general histories like
                    Chandler, Hourtoulle and Petre. Even Theirs and de Segur are not detailed
                    battle studies, but two rather obsure French Chandler-like histories in
                    detail and scope. Foucart and von der Glotz are the only substantial
                    studies he references, and at several points he disagrees with them for some
                    reason, providing a different narrative of events. That is not to say it is
                    bad history, but with less than twenty books, mostly popular histories,
                    referenced for his 159 page Study, that doesn't place it in the 'best
                    researched' category by a long, long shot. You would do better with
                    Bressonet and von der Glotz alone. The battle maps of Jena, however, are
                    some of the worst I've seen, both in scale [though not provided on the maps]
                    and the placement of troops and terrain. Closewitz for instance, had woods
                    right up its eastern side and it wrapped around the town to the north and
                    west. On the map, Closewitz appears to be no closer than a quarter of a mile
                    to any woods whatsoever. The same kind of problem exists with the Isserstadt
                    forest, which Ney's entire 'division' of elites is placed in at 10 am, while
                    Glotz's and Foucart...and Bressonet, have Ney deployed further east and
                    north, including some occupying Vierzehnheiligen at 10.

                    Bill H.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Drew Jarman
                    I am not going to argue you about the narratives or maps. The numerical oob info is some of the most detailed I have ever seen so unless he fabricated the
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 3, 2011
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                      I am not going to argue you about the narratives or maps. The numerical oob info is some of the most detailed I have ever seen so unless he fabricated the numbers they must have come from somewhere as they list down to actual specific returns.
                      Drew


                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On 3 Sep 2011, at 10:42, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:

                      > Drew wrote:
                      > I decided on this because Ney, Lannes and Augereau all formed converged
                      > grenadier formations within their corps to give it some added punch which
                      > suggested they didn't have the confidence in their corps as a whole to
                      > perform as well as Davout's corps. ...Kevin Zucker Publications are some of
                      > the best researched out there AFAIK.
                      >
                      > Drew:
                      > A lack of confidence in their troops isn't why Ney, Lannes, and Augereau
                      > formed converged grenadier formations. 1. The elite formations were formed
                      > of both grenadier and carbinier companies. 2. Augereau didn't form elite
                      > battalions at Jena, 3. Forming converged elite battalions was something that
                      > Davout never did, regardless of the quality of his troops. 4. Converging
                      > elites was no more showing a lack of confidence in regular troops than
                      > forming the Imperial Guard or converged Grenadier Divisions at Austerlitz.
                      > 4. Lannes didn't form a converged elite unit at Saalfield, which he won. So,
                      > four days later, he lost confidence in his troops?
                      >
                      > I can't speak to Kevin's other publications, but his Study #5, "1806: the
                      > Coming Storm" relies on a very limited set of general histories like
                      > Chandler, Hourtoulle and Petre. Even Theirs and de Segur are not detailed
                      > battle studies, but two rather obsure French Chandler-like histories in
                      > detail and scope. Foucart and von der Glotz are the only substantial
                      > studies he references, and at several points he disagrees with them for some
                      > reason, providing a different narrative of events. That is not to say it is
                      > bad history, but with less than twenty books, mostly popular histories,
                      > referenced for his 159 page Study, that doesn't place it in the 'best
                      > researched' category by a long, long shot. You would do better with
                      > Bressonet and von der Glotz alone. The battle maps of Jena, however, are
                      > some of the worst I've seen, both in scale [though not provided on the maps]
                      > and the placement of troops and terrain. Closewitz for instance, had woods
                      > right up its eastern side and it wrapped around the town to the north and
                      > west. On the map, Closewitz appears to be no closer than a quarter of a mile
                      > to any woods whatsoever. The same kind of problem exists with the Isserstadt
                      > forest, which Ney's entire 'division' of elites is placed in at 10 am, while
                      > Glotz's and Foucart...and Bressonet, have Ney deployed further east and
                      > north, including some occupying Vierzehnheiligen at 10.
                      >
                      > Bill H.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Allan Mountford
                      A blast from the past with maps from Maude: http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/GB/Jena/ThePrusso-SaxonArmyAtJenaByPeter Hofschroer.htm - Allan From:
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 3, 2011
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                        A blast from the past with maps from Maude:



                        http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/GB/Jena/ThePrusso-SaxonArmyAtJenaByPeter
                        Hofschroer.htm



                        - Allan



                        From: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of william haggart
                        Sent: 03 September 2011 10:43
                        To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?





                        Drew wrote:
                        I decided on this because Ney, Lannes and Augereau all formed converged
                        grenadier formations within their corps to give it some added punch which
                        suggested they didn't have the confidence in their corps as a whole to
                        perform as well as Davout's corps. ...Kevin Zucker Publications are some of
                        the best researched out there AFAIK.

                        Drew:
                        A lack of confidence in their troops isn't why Ney, Lannes, and Augereau
                        formed converged grenadier formations. 1. The elite formations were formed
                        of both grenadier and carbinier companies. 2. Augereau didn't form elite
                        battalions at Jena, 3. Forming converged elite battalions was something that
                        Davout never did, regardless of the quality of his troops. 4. Converging
                        elites was no more showing a lack of confidence in regular troops than
                        forming the Imperial Guard or converged Grenadier Divisions at Austerlitz.
                        4. Lannes didn't form a converged elite unit at Saalfield, which he won. So,
                        four days later, he lost confidence in his troops?

                        I can't speak to Kevin's other publications, but his Study #5, "1806: the
                        Coming Storm" relies on a very limited set of general histories like
                        Chandler, Hourtoulle and Petre. Even Theirs and de Segur are not detailed
                        battle studies, but two rather obsure French Chandler-like histories in
                        detail and scope. Foucart and von der Glotz are the only substantial
                        studies he references, and at several points he disagrees with them for some
                        reason, providing a different narrative of events. That is not to say it is
                        bad history, but with less than twenty books, mostly popular histories,
                        referenced for his 159 page Study, that doesn't place it in the 'best
                        researched' category by a long, long shot. You would do better with
                        Bressonet and von der Glotz alone. The battle maps of Jena, however, are
                        some of the worst I've seen, both in scale [though not provided on the maps]
                        and the placement of troops and terrain. Closewitz for instance, had woods
                        right up its eastern side and it wrapped around the town to the north and
                        west. On the map, Closewitz appears to be no closer than a quarter of a mile
                        to any woods whatsoever. The same kind of problem exists with the Isserstadt
                        forest, which Ney's entire 'division' of elites is placed in at 10 am, while
                        Glotz's and Foucart...and Bressonet, have Ney deployed further east and
                        north, including some occupying Vierzehnheiligen at 10.

                        Bill H.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Wilbur Gray
                        FWIW in two areas. First, I have my British fusiliers in Bearskins, although I know they may not have worn them on occasion. Bottom line is that I don t have
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 3, 2011
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                          FWIW in two areas.
                          First, I have my British fusiliers in Bearskins, although I know they may not have worn them on occasion. Bottom line is that I don't have the money, time or patience to do a group of figures every time some army or unit changes uniforms. Sue me.
                          As regards KZ, I know the gent personally and he is a somewhat capricious, though uber intelligent individual in a Zen sort of a way. One of his shortcomings is that he doesn't list all of the references he uses. I know, because I have provided some of the information OB wise he uses, and collaborating with him is a very interesting experience.
                          I'll forgive him on the maps because that subject has caused me no end of frustration. Normally I use the Alison's Atlas maps as my primary source, but I do double check using Siborne, Maude, German General Staff (and their Austrian and French colleagues), Esposito and Elting, etc. I am often dumbfounded as to how often different cartographers differ as regards the same piece of real estate. And not just minor or style issues, but significant terrain features.
                          The biggest headache, however, seems to be scale and such things as the distance between towns. Try Google maps? Fergiddaboutit. Terrain changes, rivers change course and towns move (yes, move). Hell, I've always thought the map for Hanau was too small, but today the entire battlefield is (not "is in," but IS) the middle of a big, modern German city.
                          Vent over, ya'll have a nice Labor Day weekend, heah :).

                          Warmest regards,

                          /// BILL ///

                          Wilbur E Gray
                          Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                          AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

                          http://ageofeagles.grouply.com


                          "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides




                          To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                          From: allan.mountford@...
                          Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 13:51:22 +0100
                          Subject: RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?




























                          A blast from the past with maps from Maude:



                          http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/GB/Jena/ThePrusso-SaxonArmyAtJenaByPeter

                          Hofschroer.htm



                          - Allan



                          From: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com

                          [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of william haggart

                          Sent: 03 September 2011 10:43

                          To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com

                          Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?



                          Drew wrote:

                          I decided on this because Ney, Lannes and Augereau all formed converged

                          grenadier formations within their corps to give it some added punch which

                          suggested they didn't have the confidence in their corps as a whole to

                          perform as well as Davout's corps. ...Kevin Zucker Publications are some of

                          the best researched out there AFAIK.



                          Drew:

                          A lack of confidence in their troops isn't why Ney, Lannes, and Augereau

                          formed converged grenadier formations. 1. The elite formations were formed

                          of both grenadier and carbinier companies. 2. Augereau didn't form elite

                          battalions at Jena, 3. Forming converged elite battalions was something that

                          Davout never did, regardless of the quality of his troops. 4. Converging

                          elites was no more showing a lack of confidence in regular troops than

                          forming the Imperial Guard or converged Grenadier Divisions at Austerlitz.

                          4. Lannes didn't form a converged elite unit at Saalfield, which he won. So,

                          four days later, he lost confidence in his troops?



                          I can't speak to Kevin's other publications, but his Study #5, "1806: the

                          Coming Storm" relies on a very limited set of general histories like

                          Chandler, Hourtoulle and Petre. Even Theirs and de Segur are not detailed

                          battle studies, but two rather obsure French Chandler-like histories in

                          detail and scope. Foucart and von der Glotz are the only substantial

                          studies he references, and at several points he disagrees with them for some

                          reason, providing a different narrative of events. That is not to say it is

                          bad history, but with less than twenty books, mostly popular histories,

                          referenced for his 159 page Study, that doesn't place it in the 'best

                          researched' category by a long, long shot. You would do better with

                          Bressonet and von der Glotz alone. The battle maps of Jena, however, are

                          some of the worst I've seen, both in scale [though not provided on the maps]

                          and the placement of troops and terrain. Closewitz for instance, had woods

                          right up its eastern side and it wrapped around the town to the north and

                          west. On the map, Closewitz appears to be no closer than a quarter of a mile

                          to any woods whatsoever. The same kind of problem exists with the Isserstadt

                          forest, which Ney's entire 'division' of elites is placed in at 10 am, while

                          Glotz's and Foucart...and Bressonet, have Ney deployed further east and

                          north, including some occupying Vierzehnheiligen at 10.



                          Bill H.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Drew Jarman
                          Bill Thanks for reiterating the issue with cartography its something I have noticed a lot in lots of different sources. Regarding KZ thanks for the background
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 3, 2011
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                            Bill

                            Thanks for reiterating the issue with cartography its something I have noticed a lot in lots of different sources.

                            Regarding KZ thanks for the background info on him. I think that Bill H's complaints about his publications and the maps can probably be levelled at any book about Borodino too !

                            The best parts of his books are detailed strength returns and are just as valid as any other listing out there.

                            Uniforms are one of those annoying things too. I now have two infantry army collections each for the Prussian, Russian, French, Saxon and British armies. A few additional Fuzileer stands for the Brits just adds a bit of variety to the mix and can be used throught the period as can the Scots. I drew the line at collecting pre and post Bardin French though !!

                            Drew


                            >
                            > FWIW in two areas.
                            > First, I have my British fusiliers in Bearskins, although I know they may not have worn them on occasion. Bottom line is that I don't have the money, time or patience to do a group of figures every time some army or unit changes uniforms. Sue me.
                            > As regards KZ, I know the gent personally and he is a somewhat capricious, though uber intelligent individual in a Zen sort of a way. One of his shortcomings is that he doesn't list all of the references he uses. I know, because I have provided some of the information OB wise he uses, and collaborating with him is a very interesting experience.
                            > I'll forgive him on the maps because that subject has caused me no end of frustration. Normally I use the Alison's Atlas maps as my primary source, but I do double check using Siborne, Maude, German General Staff (and their Austrian and French colleagues), Esposito and Elting, etc. I am often dumbfounded as to how often different cartographers differ as regards the same piece of real estate. And not just minor or style issues, but significant terrain features.
                            > The biggest headache, however, seems to be scale and such things as the distance between towns. Try Google maps? Fergiddaboutit. Terrain changes, rivers change course and towns move (yes, move). Hell, I've always thought the map for Hanau was too small, but today the entire battlefield is (not "is in," but IS) the middle of a big, modern German city.
                            > Vent over, ya'll have a nice Labor Day weekend, heah :).
                            >
                            > Bill
                          • william haggart
                            Drew: Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker s Study was well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the entire work. I
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 4, 2011
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                              Drew:
                              Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker's Study was
                              well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the
                              entire work. I wish he'd taken as much care with the narrative and
                              referencing as he did with the OOB. For instance, he mentions Saxon Jaeger
                              companies at Jena that don't show up on the OOB, Whether the maps are no
                              worse than the average Borodino map, I don't know, but I would agree that
                              what Kevin put together is average in content, just not the best researched
                              source available. And I am sure that he did reference books not listed,
                              because those books didn't have all the OOB information he provides.

                              Having met Kevin Z. as well as cooresponded with him, starting back when he
                              was with SPI, I can't quibble with Col. Bill's experience.

                              Bill H.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Drew Jarman
                              Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion? Drew Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 4, 2011
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                                Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?
                                Drew

                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On 4 Sep 2011, at 15:02, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:

                                > Drew:
                                > Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker's Study was
                                > well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the
                                > entire work. I wish he'd taken as much care with the narrative and
                                > referencing as he did with the OOB. For instance, he mentions Saxon Jaeger
                                > companies at Jena that don't show up on the OOB, Whether the maps are no
                                > worse than the average Borodino map, I don't know, but I would agree that
                                > what Kevin put together is average in content, just not the best researched
                                > source available. And I am sure that he did reference books not listed,
                                > because those books didn't have all the OOB information he provides.
                                >
                                > Having met Kevin Z. as well as cooresponded with him, starting back when he
                                > was with SPI, I can't quibble with Col. Bill's experience.
                                >
                                > Bill H.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Wilbur Gray
                                Those weren t the attached light troops under Generalleutnant von Polenz? Warmest regards, /// BILL /// Wilbur E Gray Colonel, US Army (Ret) AOE, PSS, HMGS
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 4, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Those weren't the attached light troops under Generalleutnant von Polenz?

                                  Warmest regards,

                                  /// BILL ///

                                  Wilbur E Gray
                                  Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                  AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

                                  http://ageofeagles.grouply.com


                                  "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides




                                  To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: andrewjarman@...
                                  Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:43:22 +0100
                                  Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?




























                                  Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?

                                  Drew



                                  Sent from my iPhone



                                  On 4 Sep 2011, at 15:02, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:



                                  > Drew:

                                  > Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker's Study was

                                  > well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the

                                  > entire work. I wish he'd taken as much care with the narrative and

                                  > referencing as he did with the OOB. For instance, he mentions Saxon Jaeger

                                  > companies at Jena that don't show up on the OOB, Whether the maps are no

                                  > worse than the average Borodino map, I don't know, but I would agree that

                                  > what Kevin put together is average in content, just not the best researched

                                  > source available. And I am sure that he did reference books not listed,

                                  > because those books didn't have all the OOB information he provides.

                                  >

                                  > Having met Kevin Z. as well as cooresponded with him, starting back when he

                                  > was with SPI, I can't quibble with Col. Bill's experience.

                                  >

                                  > Bill H.

                                  >

                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  >

                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Doug Boggess
                                  The Saxe Weimar Jagers were at Auerstadt. I do not know where they began the battle but they ran away in the same general direction as the fusiliers, so in my
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 4, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The Saxe Weimar Jagers were at Auerstadt. I do not know where they began the battle but they ran away in the same general direction as the fusiliers, so in my OOB I put them there, though I have often wondered if that was who NB meant when they put a brigade of "Prussian Jagers" in one of their divsions. When I wrote my OOB, I painted up a unit of schutzen from all the units based on a mention by somebody that all the the schutzen were detached to the front...I cannot say with certainty that I handled this correctly according to history but it worked as a game scenario.
                                    There were some companies of Prussian Jagers at Jena, and the Saxons had attached companies of riflemen in their infantry untis, but I do not recall any separate Saxon rifle units. Here are some "light brigades" from Jena. These are from my OOB notes. I did most of this reading 5+ years ago so I may not be able to defend it very well these days.
                                    Bila, Generalmajor Karl-Anton-Ernst von

                                    Prussian Fusilier Battalion Rosen Nr. 7

                                    Prussian Fusilier Battalion Pelet Nr. 14

                                    Prussian Jager Company Valentini

                                    Prussian Jager Company Werner

                                    Erichsen, Oberst von**

                                    ** Erichsen�s light brigade was part of Division Grawert.

                                    Prussian Fusilier Battalion Erichsen Nr. 10

                                    Prussian Hussar Regiment Gettkandt Nr. 1: 10 squadrons


                                    Prussian 6-pdr Horse Battery Studnitz Nr. 14

                                    Cavalry Brigade from the Advanced Guard
                                    Detachment [area of Vierzehnheiligen]: 8 squadrons****

                                    Trutzschler, Generalmajor von

                                    Saxon Hussar Regiment: 8
                                    squadrons



                                    Infantry Brigade

                                    Dyherrn, Generalmajor von

                                    Saxon Infantry Regiment Low Nr. 8: 2 battalions (4 stands)


                                    Saxon Infantry Regiment Bevilaqua Nr. 10: 1 battalion (1 stands)

                                    Saxon Infantry Regiment Niesemeuschel Nr. 11: 2 battalions (4
                                    stands)

                                    Plus I think I added Boguslawski for 2 stands and 1 stand of Jagers

                                    For 12/9/7

                                    Saxon 12-pdr Foot Battery Bonniot

                                    Light Brigade

                                    Boguslawski, Oberst Karl-Anton-Andreas von

                                    Prussian Fusilier Battalion Boguslawski Nr. 22

                                    Prussian Jager Company Masars

                                    Prussian Jager Company Kronhelm


                                    �.

                                    Prussian Hussar Regiment Bila Nr. 11: 5 squadrons

                                    For E/6/42



                                    > To: napoleonicfireandfury@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: hmgs1b@...
                                    > Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 11:38:10 -0400
                                    > Subject: RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Those weren't the attached light troops under Generalleutnant von Polenz?
                                    >
                                    > Warmest regards,
                                    >
                                    > /// BILL ///
                                    >
                                    > Wilbur E Gray
                                    > Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                    > AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+
                                    >
                                    > http://ageofeagles.grouply.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: andrewjarman@...
                                    > Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:43:22 +0100
                                    > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?
                                    >
                                    > Drew
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sent from my iPhone
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 4 Sep 2011, at 15:02, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Drew:
                                    >
                                    > > Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker's Study was
                                    >
                                    > > well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the
                                    >
                                    > > entire work. I wish he'd taken as much care with the narrative and
                                    >
                                    > > referencing as he did with the OOB. For instance, he mentions Saxon Jaeger
                                    >
                                    > > companies at Jena that don't show up on the OOB, Whether the maps are no
                                    >
                                    > > worse than the average Borodino map, I don't know, but I would agree that
                                    >
                                    > > what Kevin put together is average in content, just not the best researched
                                    >
                                    > > source available. And I am sure that he did reference books not listed,
                                    >
                                    > > because those books didn't have all the OOB information he provides.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Having met Kevin Z. as well as cooresponded with him, starting back when he
                                    >
                                    > > was with SPI, I can't quibble with Col. Bill's experience.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Bill H.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at http://ageofeagles.grouply.com!Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Drew Jarman
                                    Well they aint Saxon proper thats for sure ! D Sent from my iPhone
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 4, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Well they aint Saxon proper thats for sure !
                                      D

                                      Sent from my iPhone

                                      On 4 Sep 2011, at 16:38, Wilbur Gray <hmgs1b@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Those weren't the attached light troops under Generalleutnant von Polenz?
                                      >
                                      > Warmest regards,
                                      >
                                      > /// BILL ///
                                      >
                                      > Wilbur E Gray
                                      > Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                      > AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+
                                      >
                                      > http://ageofeagles.grouply.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: andrewjarman@...
                                      > Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:43:22 +0100
                                      > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?
                                      >
                                      > Drew
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Sent from my iPhone
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 4 Sep 2011, at 15:02, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Drew:
                                      >
                                      >> Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker's Study was
                                      >
                                      >> well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the
                                      >
                                      >> entire work. I wish he'd taken as much care with the narrative and
                                      >
                                      >> referencing as he did with the OOB. For instance, he mentions Saxon Jaeger
                                      >
                                      >> companies at Jena that don't show up on the OOB, Whether the maps are no
                                      >
                                      >> worse than the average Borodino map, I don't know, but I would agree that
                                      >
                                      >> what Kevin put together is average in content, just not the best researched
                                      >
                                      >> source available. And I am sure that he did reference books not listed,
                                      >
                                      >> because those books didn't have all the OOB information he provides.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> Having met Kevin Z. as well as cooresponded with him, starting back when he
                                      >
                                      >> was with SPI, I can't quibble with Col. Bill's experience.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> Bill H.
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at http://ageofeagles.grouply.com!Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Drew Jarman
                                      The Saxon sharpshooters were a tiny proportion of the regimental whole. In 1809 when they were all detached from the line regiments they only formed three
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 4, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        The Saxon sharpshooters were a tiny proportion of the regimental whole. In 1809 when they were all detached from the line regiments they only formed three stands of infantry in AoE scale despite being turned into a two battalion regiment. Prussians sending the schutzen to the front of the brigades and divisions is historically accurate. 10 men per non Fusilier/Jager company so around 240 men per average brigade.
                                        Drew

                                        Sent from my iPhone

                                        On 4 Sep 2011, at 17:10, Doug Boggess <davout89@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > The Saxe Weimar Jagers were at Auerstadt. I do not know where they began the battle but they ran away in the same general direction as the fusiliers, so in my OOB I put them there, though I have often wondered if that was who NB meant when they put a brigade of "Prussian Jagers" in one of their divsions. When I wrote my OOB, I painted up a unit of schutzen from all the units based on a mention by somebody that all the the schutzen were detached to the front...I cannot say with certainty that I handled this correctly according to history but it worked as a game scenario.
                                        > There were some companies of Prussian Jagers at Jena, and the Saxons had attached companies of riflemen in their infantry untis, but I do not recall any separate Saxon rifle units. Here are some "light brigades" from Jena. These are from my OOB notes. I did most of this reading 5+ years ago so I may not be able to defend it very well these days.
                                        > Bila, Generalmajor Karl-Anton-Ernst von
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Fusilier Battalion Rosen Nr. 7
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Fusilier Battalion Pelet Nr. 14
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Jager Company Valentini
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Jager Company Werner
                                        >
                                        > Erichsen, Oberst von**
                                        >
                                        > ** Erichsen’s light brigade was part of Division Grawert.
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Fusilier Battalion Erichsen Nr. 10
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Hussar Regiment Gettkandt Nr. 1: 10 squadrons
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Prussian 6-pdr Horse Battery Studnitz Nr. 14
                                        >
                                        > Cavalry Brigade from the Advanced Guard
                                        > Detachment [area of Vierzehnheiligen]: 8 squadrons****
                                        >
                                        > Trutzschler, Generalmajor von
                                        >
                                        > Saxon Hussar Regiment: 8
                                        > squadrons
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Infantry Brigade
                                        >
                                        > Dyherrn, Generalmajor von
                                        >
                                        > Saxon Infantry Regiment Low Nr. 8: 2 battalions (4 stands)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Saxon Infantry Regiment Bevilaqua Nr. 10: 1 battalion (1 stands)
                                        >
                                        > Saxon Infantry Regiment Niesemeuschel Nr. 11: 2 battalions (4
                                        > stands)
                                        >
                                        > Plus I think I added Boguslawski for 2 stands and 1 stand of Jagers
                                        >
                                        > For 12/9/7
                                        >
                                        > Saxon 12-pdr Foot Battery Bonniot
                                        >
                                        > Light Brigade
                                        >
                                        > Boguslawski, Oberst Karl-Anton-Andreas von
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Fusilier Battalion Boguslawski Nr. 22
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Jager Company Masars
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Jager Company Kronhelm
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ….
                                        >
                                        > Prussian Hussar Regiment Bila Nr. 11: 5 squadrons
                                        >
                                        > For E/6/42
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> To: napoleonicfireandfury@yahoogroups.com
                                        >> From: hmgs1b@...
                                        >> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 11:38:10 -0400
                                        >> Subject: RE: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Those weren't the attached light troops under Generalleutnant von Polenz?
                                        >>
                                        >> Warmest regards,
                                        >>
                                        >> /// BILL ///
                                        >>
                                        >> Wilbur E Gray
                                        >> Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                        >> AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+
                                        >>
                                        >> http://ageofeagles.grouply.com
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                        >> From: andrewjarman@...
                                        >> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:43:22 +0100
                                        >> Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?
                                        >>
                                        >> Drew
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Sent from my iPhone
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> On 4 Sep 2011, at 15:02, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>> Drew:
                                        >>
                                        >>> Okay, so you thinking of the OOBs when you said Zucker's Study was
                                        >>
                                        >>> well-researched and detailed. I was assuming you were referring to the
                                        >>
                                        >>> entire work. I wish he'd taken as much care with the narrative and
                                        >>
                                        >>> referencing as he did with the OOB. For instance, he mentions Saxon Jaeger
                                        >>
                                        >>> companies at Jena that don't show up on the OOB, Whether the maps are no
                                        >>
                                        >>> worse than the average Borodino map, I don't know, but I would agree that
                                        >>
                                        >>> what Kevin put together is average in content, just not the best researched
                                        >>
                                        >>> source available. And I am sure that he did reference books not listed,
                                        >>
                                        >>> because those books didn't have all the OOB information he provides.
                                        >>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>> Having met Kevin Z. as well as cooresponded with him, starting back when he
                                        >>
                                        >>> was with SPI, I can't quibble with Col. Bill's experience.
                                        >>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>> Bill H.
                                        >>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> ------------------------------------
                                        >>
                                        >> Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at http://ageofeagles.grouply.com!Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at http://ageofeagles.grouply.com!Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • william haggart
                                        Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion? Drew Drew: Nope. The Saxe-Weimar battalion is under Oswald at Auerstadt according to Zucker. [p. 150] On
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?
                                          Drew


                                          Drew:
                                          Nope. The Saxe-Weimar battalion is under Oswald at Auerstadt according to
                                          Zucker. [p. 150] On page 42 he mentions "the Saxon Jaegers of Pelet"
                                          falling back from Closewitz and the woods. Pelet commanded Prussian
                                          Fusilier Battalion #14 in Zucker's book. [p.99] He may have meant the Saxon
                                          Schutzen from the grenadier battalions which were in the woods with Pelet,
                                          but he didn't command them.

                                          Probably a simple error, but who knows. Maybe he found something we don't
                                          know about. ;-j In anycase, the OOB for the Prussians appears to come
                                          directly from Lettow-Verbeck's "Der Krieg von 1806-1807" with a couple of
                                          asides from Hopfner. Kevin suggests as much on page 99 by footnoting the
                                          date under the title [ ! ]

                                          Whether the Schutzen were 50 men per battalion or still 40 is not clear.
                                          There were 10 men per company before the change from four to five companies
                                          per battalion [without the grenadiers which continued with four companies].
                                          In 1803 the was a change from 10 to 20 schutzen per company, but there were
                                          never enough rifles to actually carry out that change. Pelet, for instance,
                                          produced 20 schutzen per company in his Fusilier battalions by stripping the
                                          rifles from all the officers. However, each battalion has '40 men as
                                          reserves' in its compliment among the staff, bands, schutzen etc. etc. What
                                          that means, I have been unable to discover, but it is interesting that is
                                          the same number as the schutzen.

                                          Doug: You list Saxon grenadier battalions as 'light infantry' if I
                                          understand your post. They may have deployed companies and third ranks as
                                          skirmishers as did other Prussian and Saxon grenadier battalions, but they
                                          weren't light infantry:

                                          Saxon Infantry Regiment Low Nr. 8: 2 battalions (4 stands)

                                          Saxon Infantry Regiment Bevilaqua Nr. 10: 1 battalion (1 stands)

                                          Saxon Infantry Regiment Niesemeuschel Nr. 11: 2 battalions (4
                                          stands)

                                          Bill H.





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Drew Jarman
                                          Bill The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Bill

                                            The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would have had attached 3pdrs too. I suppose you could form composite reserve brigades for garrison duties with them rated as Conscript.

                                            The order to increase the schutzen from 10 to 20 I thought was in 1805 and not 1803 and there us some query if the grenadiers and musketeers managed to carry it out in time. Additionally I thought the schutzen were drawn from the full company strength and not by adfing extra men to the ration strength. The Fusiliers and Jagers are supposed to have managed to do it as they were light infantry and they had a ready supply of trained light infantry if not enough rifles (for the Fusiliers). The schutzen didnt have to be rifled armed and the grenadier and musketeer schutzen certainly were not rifle armed.

                                            Its a common error for some people to think the Schutzen, Fusiliers and Jager are the same thing as they shared the same drill manual written by a certain Colonel Yorck. The Saxons tried to copy the Prussian way of doing things to some degree but had a desperate shortage of light infantry/schutzen. I calculated they only had three AoE stands worth when they converged them all in 1809 from the whole army to form their first light regiment. Feeding in third ranks was a common tactic but as Col Bill rightly states probably not effective against properly trained light infantry. I still strongly disagree with his rating if the 1806 Prussian as being incapable of skirmishing when they had similar numbers of skirmishers in a brigade and the Fusiliers are properly trained and used the same drill manual and training and tactics as the jager regiment.

                                            This period in interesting and it is clear that when well led the Prussian were an equal to the French army. Their problem is their C3 when compared to the French system. Davout got lucky when Brunswick was wounded due to no one stepping up to take control and the King proving incapable of giving any orders. The retreat was commanded by Colonel Scharnhorst whilst the remaining generals just followed his commands. Which shows how their mindset worked. At least Hohenlohe managed to keep some semblance of command for a couple of days.

                                            My 1806 Prussians and French are nearly finished and I am itching to have a big game with them.

                                            Out of interest do you know if Berthier had managed to rejoin the army from vommanding the Paris resetve by the time of Jena-Auerstadt.

                                            Drew

                                            Drew



                                            Sent from my iPhone

                                            On 5 Sep 2011, at 18:10, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:

                                            > Perhaps thats the Saxe-Weimar Sharpshooter battalion?
                                            > Drew
                                            >
                                            > Drew:
                                            > Nope. The Saxe-Weimar battalion is under Oswald at Auerstadt according to
                                            > Zucker. [p. 150] On page 42 he mentions "the Saxon Jaegers of Pelet"
                                            > falling back from Closewitz and the woods. Pelet commanded Prussian
                                            > Fusilier Battalion #14 in Zucker's book. [p.99] He may have meant the Saxon
                                            > Schutzen from the grenadier battalions which were in the woods with Pelet,
                                            > but he didn't command them.
                                            >
                                            > Probably a simple error, but who knows. Maybe he found something we don't
                                            > know about. ;-j In anycase, the OOB for the Prussians appears to come
                                            > directly from Lettow-Verbeck's "Der Krieg von 1806-1807" with a couple of
                                            > asides from Hopfner. Kevin suggests as much on page 99 by footnoting the
                                            > date under the title [ ! ]
                                            >
                                            > Whether the Schutzen were 50 men per battalion or still 40 is not clear.
                                            > There were 10 men per company before the change from four to five companies
                                            > per battalion [without the grenadiers which continued with four companies].
                                            > In 1803 the was a change from 10 to 20 schutzen per company, but there were
                                            > never enough rifles to actually carry out that change. Pelet, for instance,
                                            > produced 20 schutzen per company in his Fusilier battalions by stripping the
                                            > rifles from all the officers. However, each battalion has '40 men as
                                            > reserves' in its compliment among the staff, bands, schutzen etc. etc. What
                                            > that means, I have been unable to discover, but it is interesting that is
                                            > the same number as the schutzen.
                                            >
                                            > Doug: You list Saxon grenadier battalions as 'light infantry' if I
                                            > understand your post. They may have deployed companies and third ranks as
                                            > skirmishers as did other Prussian and Saxon grenadier battalions, but they
                                            > weren't light infantry:
                                            >
                                            > Saxon Infantry Regiment Low Nr. 8: 2 battalions (4 stands)
                                            >
                                            > Saxon Infantry Regiment Bevilaqua Nr. 10: 1 battalion (1 stands)
                                            >
                                            > Saxon Infantry Regiment Niesemeuschel Nr. 11: 2 battalions (4
                                            > stands)
                                            >
                                            > Bill H.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • billh512002
                                            ... Drew: Frederick William, who became King in 1797 spent several years perseverating over whether four or five companies should make up a battalion. ... From
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              > The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would have had attached 3pdrs too. I suppose you could form composite reserve brigades for garrison duties with them rated >as Conscript.

                                              Drew:
                                              Frederick William, who became King in 1797 spent several years perseverating over whether four or five companies should make up a battalion.

                                              > The order to increase the schutzen from 10 to 20 I thought was in 1805 and not 1803 and there us some query if the grenadiers and >musketeers managed to carry it out in time.

                                              From what I understand, it was 1803, but hardly complied with, and so repeated in 1805 among the other 'reforms' attempted at that time. As so much of what individual regiments did was not regulated [it generally a free-for-all where each inspectorate and
                                              regiment could and often did very much as they pleased.] including such things as increasing the schutzen, it is hard to say how many did or didn't carry out the increase.

                                              >Additionally I thought the schutzen were drawn from the full company strength and not by adfing extra men to the ration strength. The Fusiliers and Jagers are supposed to have managed to do it as they were light infantry and they had a ready supply of trained light infantry if not enough rifles (for the Fusiliers.)The schutzen didnt have to be rifled armed and the grenadier and musketeer
                                              schutzen certainly were not rifle armed.
                                              >

                                              No, you misunderstood me. A Musketeer battalion has a compliment of:
                                              22-23 officers, 60 NCOs, 1 artillery NCO, 5 surgeons, 15 drummers, 1 bugler, 17 gunners, 50 schutzen, 600 musketeers, 50 reserves, and 10 sappers, for 831 to 832 men. Both the Grenadiers and Fusiliers also had 40 Reserves listed in their compliment. And they just happen to have four companies. So I am wondering if the 'reserves' were supports for the Schutzen. IF they were, that would put twice as many in the field and 80 to 100 per battalion, which would be close to the French battalions' voltigeur numbers at the time...

                                              What makes you think the musketeer and Grenadier Schutzen weren't rifle-armed??

                                              > Its a common error for some people to think the Schutzen, Fusiliers and Jager are the same thing as they shared the same drill manual written by a certain Colonel Yorck.

                                              Colonel Yorck may have written a manual for the Jager regiment before 1806, but he didn't write the Schutzen instructions or the Fusiliers instructions, which were written in 1788-89. Before 1806, the Prussians had scores of drill manuals and instructions floating around, as each regiment did 'their own thing.' Yorck was put in charge of the Jager Regiment sometime after Frederick came to the
                                              Throne to 'save' the regiment, which was being drilled like a line regiment. Paret describes the incident in his book on Yorck and the Prussian reforms. So, certainly Yorck may have written a manual for the Jagers which was shared between interested officers, but it wasn't official and certainly not anything uniform in use.

                                              >The Saxons tried to copy the Prussian way of doing things to some degree but had a desperate shortage of light infantry/schutzen.<

                                              I'd be interested in where you found that information. They had shutzen in the same numbers organizationally, though they certainly didn't have much in the way of light infantry battalions etc.

                                              >I calculated they only had three AoE stands worth when they converged them all in 1809 from the whole army to form their first light regiment.<

                                              We are talking about 1806, right? Once the French got a hold of the Saxons, they re-organized them.

                                              >Feeding in third ranks was a common tactic but as Col Bill rightly states probably not effective against properly trained light infantry. I still strongly disagree with his rating if the 1806 Prussian as being incapable of skirmishing when they had similar numbers of skirmishers in a brigade and the Fusiliers are
                                              properly trained and used the same drill manual and training and tactics as the jager regiment.<

                                              The question is, of course, their actual battlefield performance. Based on that evidence they were 'effective' on a number of ocassions at Jena and Auerstadt,depending on how you define 'effective.'

                                              > This period in interesting and it is clear that when well led the Prussian were an equal to the French army. Their problem is their C3 when compared to the French system.

                                              I agree with that. It is fascinating to read the Prussian and French AARs and critiques of the battles and what they felt were the factors that led to defeat. For instance, Prince August of Prussia, while a prisoner of the French wrote the King on the failings and needed changes in the army, particularly the light infantry. They probably influenced the King's "Guidlines" when they came out. Clauswitz was the Prince's adjutant and probably helped with the memorandum. He
                                              made three points:
                                              1. The Prussians needed more trained light infantry.
                                              2. The schutzen and fusiliers were badly handled by higher command and needed to increase the tactical cooperation between line and light infantry on the field.
                                              3. The third rank of line battalions should be trained as skirmishers.

                                              Prince August is clear in saying he thought the fusiliers, schutzen and jagers performed well, and that their training in skirmishing itself did not need improvement.

                                              Davout was still debating the use of the third rank compared to whole company deployment in 1810-11. The Prussians never did. The use of the third rank as skirmishers was a long-time practice [used in 1793-1795 for instance] and they obviously didn't see any serious down-sides to incorporating them in their 1812 reforms. So, I would think it was obvious that the Prussians did feel they experienced any negative results from skirmishing with the third rank.

                                              >Davout got lucky when Brunswick was wounded due to no one stepping up to take control and the King proving incapable of giving any orders. The retreat was commanded by Colonel Scharnhorst whilst the remaining generals just followed his commands. Which shows how their mindset worked. At least Hohenlohe managed to keep some semblance of command for a couple of days.
                                              >

                                              > My 1806 Prussians and French are nearly finished and I am itching to have a big game with them.
                                              >
                                              >Out of interest do you know if Berthier had managed to rejoin the army from vommanding the Paris resetve by the time of Jena-Auerstadt.

                                              Drew: all that I have read says no. Colonel Vachee wrote "Napoleon and the Campaign of 1806" which is a re-printing of his 1914 book, "Napoleon at Work." As it is specifically written to explore what a Napoleonic commander did during a campaign and battle, particularly Napoleon, it is a great read, though he does
                                              idolize Nappy. According to him, Berthier doesn't appear to have been at either battle.

                                              I look forward to hearing about your 'big game' and hopefully seeing some pictures.

                                              Bill H.
                                            • Drew Jarman
                                              Bill H Osprey 152 P4 Confirms 5 coy bns from 1st June 1799. (1st & 2nd bns, 3rd depot bn 4 coys?) Army reordered to three bns of 4 coys on 5th July 1806. Not
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Bill H

                                                Osprey 152
                                                P4 Confirms 5 coy bns from 1st June 1799. (1st & 2nd bns, 3rd depot bn 4 coys?)
                                                Army reordered to three bns of 4 coys on 5th July 1806. Not achieved before war broke out. (this is the new two musketeer bns, one fusilier bn oob).
                                                Osprey 149
                                                P6 3rd March 1787 10 schutzen per coy.
                                                P12 14th March 1798 Fusilier schutzen increased to 22 per coy.
                                                P11 24th February 1788 Fusilier regs for two ranks stayed in use until after 1807 and the reforms.
                                                P4 Potsdam Garrison got extra 10 schutzen per coy in 1805 (Konig 18th IR & 6th & 15th Gardes?).
                                                P6 claims increase to 20 for all line companies ordered 23rd November 1806 !!? Is this correct year as this is AFTER Jena-Auerstadt.

                                                Finally my error all schutzen are rifle armed !! Which is below AoE level of representation. Where they suddenly find double the number of rifles is a wonder though.

                                                Drew


                                                Sent from my iPhone

                                                On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, "billh512002" <bhaggart@...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                > > Bill
                                                > >
                                                > > The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would have had attached 3pdrs too. I suppose you could form composite reserve brigades for garrison duties with them rated >as Conscript.
                                                >
                                                > Drew:
                                                > Frederick William, who became King in 1797 spent several years perseverating over whether four or five companies should make up a battalion.
                                                >
                                                > > The order to increase the schutzen from 10 to 20 I thought was in 1805 and not 1803 and there us some query if the grenadiers and >musketeers managed to carry it out in time.
                                                >
                                                > From what I understand, it was 1803, but hardly complied with, and so repeated in 1805 among the other 'reforms' attempted at that time. As so much of what individual regiments did was not regulated [it generally a free-for-all where each inspectorate and
                                                > regiment could and often did very much as they pleased.] including such things as increasing the schutzen, it is hard to say how many did or didn't carry out the increase.
                                                >
                                                > >Additionally I thought the schutzen were drawn from the full company strength and not by adfing extra men to the ration strength. The Fusiliers and Jagers are supposed to have managed to do it as they were light infantry and they had a ready supply of trained light infantry if not enough rifles (for the Fusiliers.)The schutzen didnt have to be rifled armed and the grenadier and musketeer
                                                > schutzen certainly were not rifle armed.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > No, you misunderstood me. A Musketeer battalion has a compliment of:
                                                > 22-23 officers, 60 NCOs, 1 artillery NCO, 5 surgeons, 15 drummers, 1 bugler, 17 gunners, 50 schutzen, 600 musketeers, 50 reserves, and 10 sappers, for 831 to 832 men. Both the Grenadiers and Fusiliers also had 40 Reserves listed in their compliment. And they just happen to have four companies. So I am wondering if the 'reserves' were supports for the Schutzen. IF they were, that would put twice as many in the field and 80 to 100 per battalion, which would be close to the French battalions' voltigeur numbers at the time...
                                                >
                                                > What makes you think the musketeer and Grenadier Schutzen weren't rifle-armed??
                                                >
                                                > > Its a common error for some people to think the Schutzen, Fusiliers and Jager are the same thing as they shared the same drill manual written by a certain Colonel Yorck.
                                                >
                                                > Colonel Yorck may have written a manual for the Jager regiment before 1806, but he didn't write the Schutzen instructions or the Fusiliers instructions, which were written in 1788-89. Before 1806, the Prussians had scores of drill manuals and instructions floating around, as each regiment did 'their own thing.' Yorck was put in charge of the Jager Regiment sometime after Frederick came to the
                                                > Throne to 'save' the regiment, which was being drilled like a line regiment. Paret describes the incident in his book on Yorck and the Prussian reforms. So, certainly Yorck may have written a manual for the Jagers which was shared between interested officers, but it wasn't official and certainly not anything uniform in use.
                                                >
                                                > >The Saxons tried to copy the Prussian way of doing things to some degree but had a desperate shortage of light infantry/schutzen.<
                                                >
                                                > I'd be interested in where you found that information. They had shutzen in the same numbers organizationally, though they certainly didn't have much in the way of light infantry battalions etc.
                                                >
                                                > >I calculated they only had three AoE stands worth when they converged them all in 1809 from the whole army to form their first light regiment.<
                                                >
                                                > We are talking about 1806, right? Once the French got a hold of the Saxons, they re-organized them.
                                                >
                                                > >Feeding in third ranks was a common tactic but as Col Bill rightly states probably not effective against properly trained light infantry. I still strongly disagree with his rating if the 1806 Prussian as being incapable of skirmishing when they had similar numbers of skirmishers in a brigade and the Fusiliers are
                                                > properly trained and used the same drill manual and training and tactics as the jager regiment.<
                                                >
                                                > The question is, of course, their actual battlefield performance. Based on that evidence they were 'effective' on a number of ocassions at Jena and Auerstadt,depending on how you define 'effective.'
                                                >
                                                > > This period in interesting and it is clear that when well led the Prussian were an equal to the French army. Their problem is their C3 when compared to the French system.
                                                >
                                                > I agree with that. It is fascinating to read the Prussian and French AARs and critiques of the battles and what they felt were the factors that led to defeat. For instance, Prince August of Prussia, while a prisoner of the French wrote the King on the failings and needed changes in the army, particularly the light infantry. They probably influenced the King's "Guidlines" when they came out. Clauswitz was the Prince's adjutant and probably helped with the memorandum. He
                                                > made three points:
                                                > 1. The Prussians needed more trained light infantry.
                                                > 2. The schutzen and fusiliers were badly handled by higher command and needed to increase the tactical cooperation between line and light infantry on the field.
                                                > 3. The third rank of line battalions should be trained as skirmishers.
                                                >
                                                > Prince August is clear in saying he thought the fusiliers, schutzen and jagers performed well, and that their training in skirmishing itself did not need improvement.
                                                >
                                                > Davout was still debating the use of the third rank compared to whole company deployment in 1810-11. The Prussians never did. The use of the third rank as skirmishers was a long-time practice [used in 1793-1795 for instance] and they obviously didn't see any serious down-sides to incorporating them in their 1812 reforms. So, I would think it was obvious that the Prussians did feel they experienced any negative results from skirmishing with the third rank.
                                                >
                                                > >Davout got lucky when Brunswick was wounded due to no one stepping up to take control and the King proving incapable of giving any orders. The retreat was commanded by Colonel Scharnhorst whilst the remaining generals just followed his commands. Which shows how their mindset worked. At least Hohenlohe managed to keep some semblance of command for a couple of days.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > > My 1806 Prussians and French are nearly finished and I am itching to have a big game with them.
                                                > >
                                                > >Out of interest do you know if Berthier had managed to rejoin the army from vommanding the Paris resetve by the time of Jena-Auerstadt.
                                                >
                                                > Drew: all that I have read says no. Colonel Vachee wrote "Napoleon and the Campaign of 1806" which is a re-printing of his 1914 book, "Napoleon at Work." As it is specifically written to explore what a Napoleonic commander did during a campaign and battle, particularly Napoleon, it is a great read, though he does
                                                > idolize Nappy. According to him, Berthier doesn't appear to have been at either battle.
                                                >
                                                > I look forward to hearing about your 'big game' and hopefully seeing some pictures.
                                                >
                                                > Bill H.
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Wilbur Gray
                                                Just pulled Napoleon s German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and two drummers from
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Just pulled Napoleon's German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and two drummers from each regiment, commanding one corporal and eight privates from each musketeer company. My guess is that these are what KZ is referring to, and given they were likely ad hoc units detached on the battlefield, I doubt if any formal OB would list them. BTW, same uniform as the regular infantry except green bicorne plume, and they were rifle armed.

                                                  Warmest regards,

                                                  /// BILL ///

                                                  Wilbur E Gray
                                                  Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                                  AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

                                                  http://ageofeagles.grouply.com


                                                  "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides



                                                  To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: andrewjarman@...
                                                  Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 23:27:01 +0100
                                                  Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?




























                                                  Bill H



                                                  Osprey 152

                                                  P4 Confirms 5 coy bns from 1st June 1799. (1st & 2nd bns, 3rd depot bn 4 coys?)

                                                  Army reordered to three bns of 4 coys on 5th July 1806. Not achieved before war broke out. (this is the new two musketeer bns, one fusilier bn oob).

                                                  Osprey 149

                                                  P6 3rd March 1787 10 schutzen per coy.

                                                  P12 14th March 1798 Fusilier schutzen increased to 22 per coy.

                                                  P11 24th February 1788 Fusilier regs for two ranks stayed in use until after 1807 and the reforms.

                                                  P4 Potsdam Garrison got extra 10 schutzen per coy in 1805 (Konig 18th IR & 6th & 15th Gardes?).

                                                  P6 claims increase to 20 for all line companies ordered 23rd November 1806 !!? Is this correct year as this is AFTER Jena-Auerstadt.



                                                  Finally my error all schutzen are rifle armed !! Which is below AoE level of representation. Where they suddenly find double the number of rifles is a wonder though.



                                                  Drew



                                                  Sent from my iPhone



                                                  On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, "billh512002" <bhaggart@...> wrote:



                                                  >

                                                  > > Bill

                                                  > >

                                                  > > The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would have had attached 3pdrs too. I suppose you could form composite reserve brigades for garrison duties with them rated >as Conscript.

                                                  >

                                                  > Drew:

                                                  > Frederick William, who became King in 1797 spent several years perseverating over whether four or five companies should make up a battalion.

                                                  >

                                                  > > The order to increase the schutzen from 10 to 20 I thought was in 1805 and not 1803 and there us some query if the grenadiers and >musketeers managed to carry it out in time.

                                                  >

                                                  > From what I understand, it was 1803, but hardly complied with, and so repeated in 1805 among the other 'reforms' attempted at that time. As so much of what individual regiments did was not regulated [it generally a free-for-all where each inspectorate and

                                                  > regiment could and often did very much as they pleased.] including such things as increasing the schutzen, it is hard to say how many did or didn't carry out the increase.

                                                  >

                                                  > >Additionally I thought the schutzen were drawn from the full company strength and not by adfing extra men to the ration strength. The Fusiliers and Jagers are supposed to have managed to do it as they were light infantry and they had a ready supply of trained light infantry if not enough rifles (for the Fusiliers.)The schutzen didnt have to be rifled armed and the grenadier and musketeer

                                                  > schutzen certainly were not rifle armed.

                                                  > >

                                                  >

                                                  > No, you misunderstood me. A Musketeer battalion has a compliment of:

                                                  > 22-23 officers, 60 NCOs, 1 artillery NCO, 5 surgeons, 15 drummers, 1 bugler, 17 gunners, 50 schutzen, 600 musketeers, 50 reserves, and 10 sappers, for 831 to 832 men. Both the Grenadiers and Fusiliers also had 40 Reserves listed in their compliment. And they just happen to have four companies. So I am wondering if the 'reserves' were supports for the Schutzen. IF they were, that would put twice as many in the field and 80 to 100 per battalion, which would be close to the French battalions' voltigeur numbers at the time...

                                                  >

                                                  > What makes you think the musketeer and Grenadier Schutzen weren't rifle-armed??

                                                  >

                                                  > > Its a common error for some people to think the Schutzen, Fusiliers and Jager are the same thing as they shared the same drill manual written by a certain Colonel Yorck.

                                                  >

                                                  > Colonel Yorck may have written a manual for the Jager regiment before 1806, but he didn't write the Schutzen instructions or the Fusiliers instructions, which were written in 1788-89. Before 1806, the Prussians had scores of drill manuals and instructions floating around, as each regiment did 'their own thing.' Yorck was put in charge of the Jager Regiment sometime after Frederick came to the

                                                  > Throne to 'save' the regiment, which was being drilled like a line regiment. Paret describes the incident in his book on Yorck and the Prussian reforms. So, certainly Yorck may have written a manual for the Jagers which was shared between interested officers, but it wasn't official and certainly not anything uniform in use.

                                                  >

                                                  > >The Saxons tried to copy the Prussian way of doing things to some degree but had a desperate shortage of light infantry/schutzen.<

                                                  >

                                                  > I'd be interested in where you found that information. They had shutzen in the same numbers organizationally, though they certainly didn't have much in the way of light infantry battalions etc.

                                                  >

                                                  > >I calculated they only had three AoE stands worth when they converged them all in 1809 from the whole army to form their first light regiment.<

                                                  >

                                                  > We are talking about 1806, right? Once the French got a hold of the Saxons, they re-organized them.

                                                  >

                                                  > >Feeding in third ranks was a common tactic but as Col Bill rightly states probably not effective against properly trained light infantry. I still strongly disagree with his rating if the 1806 Prussian as being incapable of skirmishing when they had similar numbers of skirmishers in a brigade and the Fusiliers are

                                                  > properly trained and used the same drill manual and training and tactics as the jager regiment.<

                                                  >

                                                  > The question is, of course, their actual battlefield performance. Based on that evidence they were 'effective' on a number of ocassions at Jena and Auerstadt,depending on how you define 'effective.'

                                                  >

                                                  > > This period in interesting and it is clear that when well led the Prussian were an equal to the French army. Their problem is their C3 when compared to the French system.

                                                  >

                                                  > I agree with that. It is fascinating to read the Prussian and French AARs and critiques of the battles and what they felt were the factors that led to defeat. For instance, Prince August of Prussia, while a prisoner of the French wrote the King on the failings and needed changes in the army, particularly the light infantry. They probably influenced the King's "Guidlines" when they came out. Clauswitz was the Prince's adjutant and probably helped with the memorandum. He

                                                  > made three points:

                                                  > 1. The Prussians needed more trained light infantry.

                                                  > 2. The schutzen and fusiliers were badly handled by higher command and needed to increase the tactical cooperation between line and light infantry on the field.

                                                  > 3. The third rank of line battalions should be trained as skirmishers.

                                                  >

                                                  > Prince August is clear in saying he thought the fusiliers, schutzen and jagers performed well, and that their training in skirmishing itself did not need improvement.

                                                  >

                                                  > Davout was still debating the use of the third rank compared to whole company deployment in 1810-11. The Prussians never did. The use of the third rank as skirmishers was a long-time practice [used in 1793-1795 for instance] and they obviously didn't see any serious down-sides to incorporating them in their 1812 reforms. So, I would think it was obvious that the Prussians did feel they experienced any negative results from skirmishing with the third rank.

                                                  >

                                                  > >Davout got lucky when Brunswick was wounded due to no one stepping up to take control and the King proving incapable of giving any orders. The retreat was commanded by Colonel Scharnhorst whilst the remaining generals just followed his commands. Which shows how their mindset worked. At least Hohenlohe managed to keep some semblance of command for a couple of days.

                                                  > >

                                                  >

                                                  > > My 1806 Prussians and French are nearly finished and I am itching to have a big game with them.

                                                  > >

                                                  > >Out of interest do you know if Berthier had managed to rejoin the army from vommanding the Paris resetve by the time of Jena-Auerstadt.

                                                  >

                                                  > Drew: all that I have read says no. Colonel Vachee wrote "Napoleon and the Campaign of 1806" which is a re-printing of his 1914 book, "Napoleon at Work." As it is specifically written to explore what a Napoleonic commander did during a campaign and battle, particularly Napoleon, it is a great read, though he does

                                                  > idolize Nappy. According to him, Berthier doesn't appear to have been at either battle.

                                                  >

                                                  > I look forward to hearing about your 'big game' and hopefully seeing some pictures.

                                                  >

                                                  > Bill H.

                                                  >

                                                  >



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Drew Jarman
                                                  Exactly as I remembered and the poor old Saxons lacked any other formal light infantry (Fusilier and Jager troops) until 1809. Drew Sent from my iPhone
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Exactly as I remembered and the poor old Saxons lacked any other formal light infantry (Fusilier and Jager troops) until 1809.
                                                    Drew

                                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                                    On 5 Sep 2011, at 23:37, Wilbur Gray <hmgs1b@...> wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    > Just pulled Napoleon's German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and two drummers from each regiment, commanding one corporal and eight privates from each musketeer company. My guess is that these are what KZ is referring to, and given they were likely ad hoc units detached on the battlefield, I doubt if any formal OB would list them. BTW, same uniform as the regular infantry except green bicorne plume, and they were rifle armed.
                                                    >
                                                    > Warmest regards,
                                                    >
                                                    > /// BILL ///
                                                    >
                                                    > Wilbur E Gray
                                                    > Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                                    > AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+
                                                    >
                                                    > http://ageofeagles.grouply.com
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > From: andrewjarman@...
                                                    > Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 23:27:01 +0100
                                                    > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
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                                                    > Bill H
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Osprey 152
                                                    >
                                                    > P4 Confirms 5 coy bns from 1st June 1799. (1st & 2nd bns, 3rd depot bn 4 coys?)
                                                    >
                                                    > Army reordered to three bns of 4 coys on 5th July 1806. Not achieved before war broke out. (this is the new two musketeer bns, one fusilier bn oob).
                                                    >
                                                    > Osprey 149
                                                    >
                                                    > P6 3rd March 1787 10 schutzen per coy.
                                                    >
                                                    > P12 14th March 1798 Fusilier schutzen increased to 22 per coy.
                                                    >
                                                    > P11 24th February 1788 Fusilier regs for two ranks stayed in use until after 1807 and the reforms.
                                                    >
                                                    > P4 Potsdam Garrison got extra 10 schutzen per coy in 1805 (Konig 18th IR & 6th & 15th Gardes?).
                                                    >
                                                    > P6 claims increase to 20 for all line companies ordered 23rd November 1806 !!? Is this correct year as this is AFTER Jena-Auerstadt.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Finally my error all schutzen are rifle armed !! Which is below AoE level of representation. Where they suddenly find double the number of rifles is a wonder though.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Drew
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Sent from my iPhone
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, "billh512002" <bhaggart@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> Bill
                                                    >
                                                    >>>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would have had attached 3pdrs too. I suppose you could form composite reserve brigades for garrison duties with them rated >as Conscript.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> Drew:
                                                    >
                                                    >> Frederick William, who became King in 1797 spent several years perseverating over whether four or five companies should make up a battalion.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> The order to increase the schutzen from 10 to 20 I thought was in 1805 and not 1803 and there us some query if the grenadiers and >musketeers managed to carry it out in time.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> From what I understand, it was 1803, but hardly complied with, and so repeated in 1805 among the other 'reforms' attempted at that time. As so much of what individual regiments did was not regulated [it generally a free-for-all where each inspectorate and
                                                    >
                                                    >> regiment could and often did very much as they pleased.] including such things as increasing the schutzen, it is hard to say how many did or didn't carry out the increase.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> Additionally I thought the schutzen were drawn from the full company strength and not by adfing extra men to the ration strength. The Fusiliers and Jagers are supposed to have managed to do it as they were light infantry and they had a ready supply of trained light infantry if not enough rifles (for the Fusiliers.)The schutzen didnt have to be rifled armed and the grenadier and musketeer
                                                    >
                                                    >> schutzen certainly were not rifle armed.
                                                    >
                                                    >>>
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> No, you misunderstood me. A Musketeer battalion has a compliment of:
                                                    >
                                                    >> 22-23 officers, 60 NCOs, 1 artillery NCO, 5 surgeons, 15 drummers, 1 bugler, 17 gunners, 50 schutzen, 600 musketeers, 50 reserves, and 10 sappers, for 831 to 832 men. Both the Grenadiers and Fusiliers also had 40 Reserves listed in their compliment. And they just happen to have four companies. So I am wondering if the 'reserves' were supports for the Schutzen. IF they were, that would put twice as many in the field and 80 to 100 per battalion, which would be close to the French battalions' voltigeur numbers at the time...
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> What makes you think the musketeer and Grenadier Schutzen weren't rifle-armed??
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> Its a common error for some people to think the Schutzen, Fusiliers and Jager are the same thing as they shared the same drill manual written by a certain Colonel Yorck.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> Colonel Yorck may have written a manual for the Jager regiment before 1806, but he didn't write the Schutzen instructions or the Fusiliers instructions, which were written in 1788-89. Before 1806, the Prussians had scores of drill manuals and instructions floating around, as each regiment did 'their own thing.' Yorck was put in charge of the Jager Regiment sometime after Frederick came to the
                                                    >
                                                    >> Throne to 'save' the regiment, which was being drilled like a line regiment. Paret describes the incident in his book on Yorck and the Prussian reforms. So, certainly Yorck may have written a manual for the Jagers which was shared between interested officers, but it wasn't official and certainly not anything uniform in use.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> The Saxons tried to copy the Prussian way of doing things to some degree but had a desperate shortage of light infantry/schutzen.<
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> I'd be interested in where you found that information. They had shutzen in the same numbers organizationally, though they certainly didn't have much in the way of light infantry battalions etc.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> I calculated they only had three AoE stands worth when they converged them all in 1809 from the whole army to form their first light regiment.<
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> We are talking about 1806, right? Once the French got a hold of the Saxons, they re-organized them.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> Feeding in third ranks was a common tactic but as Col Bill rightly states probably not effective against properly trained light infantry. I still strongly disagree with his rating if the 1806 Prussian as being incapable of skirmishing when they had similar numbers of skirmishers in a brigade and the Fusiliers are
                                                    >
                                                    >> properly trained and used the same drill manual and training and tactics as the jager regiment.<
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> The question is, of course, their actual battlefield performance. Based on that evidence they were 'effective' on a number of ocassions at Jena and Auerstadt,depending on how you define 'effective.'
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> This period in interesting and it is clear that when well led the Prussian were an equal to the French army. Their problem is their C3 when compared to the French system.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> I agree with that. It is fascinating to read the Prussian and French AARs and critiques of the battles and what they felt were the factors that led to defeat. For instance, Prince August of Prussia, while a prisoner of the French wrote the King on the failings and needed changes in the army, particularly the light infantry. They probably influenced the King's "Guidlines" when they came out. Clauswitz was the Prince's adjutant and probably helped with the memorandum. He
                                                    >
                                                    >> made three points:
                                                    >
                                                    >> 1. The Prussians needed more trained light infantry.
                                                    >
                                                    >> 2. The schutzen and fusiliers were badly handled by higher command and needed to increase the tactical cooperation between line and light infantry on the field.
                                                    >
                                                    >> 3. The third rank of line battalions should be trained as skirmishers.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> Prince August is clear in saying he thought the fusiliers, schutzen and jagers performed well, and that their training in skirmishing itself did not need improvement.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> Davout was still debating the use of the third rank compared to whole company deployment in 1810-11. The Prussians never did. The use of the third rank as skirmishers was a long-time practice [used in 1793-1795 for instance] and they obviously didn't see any serious down-sides to incorporating them in their 1812 reforms. So, I would think it was obvious that the Prussians did feel they experienced any negative results from skirmishing with the third rank.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> Davout got lucky when Brunswick was wounded due to no one stepping up to take control and the King proving incapable of giving any orders. The retreat was commanded by Colonel Scharnhorst whilst the remaining generals just followed his commands. Which shows how their mindset worked. At least Hohenlohe managed to keep some semblance of command for a couple of days.
                                                    >
                                                    >>>
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> My 1806 Prussians and French are nearly finished and I am itching to have a big game with them.
                                                    >
                                                    >>>
                                                    >
                                                    >>> Out of interest do you know if Berthier had managed to rejoin the army from vommanding the Paris resetve by the time of Jena-Auerstadt.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> Drew: all that I have read says no. Colonel Vachee wrote "Napoleon and the Campaign of 1806" which is a re-printing of his 1914 book, "Napoleon at Work." As it is specifically written to explore what a Napoleonic commander did during a campaign and battle, particularly Napoleon, it is a great read, though he does
                                                    >
                                                    >> idolize Nappy. According to him, Berthier doesn't appear to have been at either battle.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> I look forward to hearing about your 'big game' and hopefully seeing some pictures.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >> Bill H.
                                                    >
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >>
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                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at http://ageofeagles.grouply.com!Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • billh512002
                                                    Drew: Yes, the King, after two years of debate, did change the number of companies in a battalion from four to five. Whether or not they had the rifles for the
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 5, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Drew:
                                                      Yes, the King, after two years of debate, did change the number of companies in a battalion from four to five. Whether or not they had the rifles for the extra 10 schutzen per battalion.

                                                      All through this period, 1797-1806, the reoccurring theme is that the military makes an official order for change, whether going from twenty to twenty-sever Fusilier battalions, doubling the size of the Fusilier schutzen at the same time, or the musketeer regiments' schutzen, and then can't do it for a lack of recruits, time, money and equipment. The last time the Schutzen all were equiped with rifles was 1796, before Frederick Williams' efforts at pre-1806 reforms.

                                                      So, while the order went out in November of 1806 to increase the number of schutzen to 20 per company, it has also been 'ordered' around the same time as the Fusilier schutzen were increased, but then delayed [read ignored] because the army simply couldn't do accomplish the increase. The only difference is that in November 1806, they actually did it when it was ordered...

                                                      And that is why the Potsdam Garrison could get extra 10 schutzen per coy in 1805--it was already a mandated change, just a shortage of rifles kept it from happening except with some favored units long afterwards.

                                                      Bill H.




                                                      > Osprey 152
                                                      > P4 Confirms 5 coy bns from 1st June 1799. (1st & 2nd bns, 3rd depot bn 4 coys?)
                                                      > Army reordered to three bns of 4 coys on 5th July 1806. Not achieved before war broke out. (this is the new two musketeer bns, one fusilier bn oob).
                                                      > Osprey 149
                                                      > P6 3rd March 1787 10 schutzen per coy.
                                                      > P12 14th March 1798 Fusilier schutzen increased to 22 per coy.
                                                      > P11 24th February 1788 Fusilier regs for two ranks stayed in use until after 1807 and the reforms.
                                                      > P4 Potsdam Garrison got extra 10 schutzen per coy in 1805 (Konig 18th IR & 6th & 15th Gardes?).
                                                      > P6 claims increase to 20 for all line companies ordered 23rd November 1806 !!? Is this correct year as this is AFTER Jena-Auerstadt.
                                                      >
                                                      > Finally my error all schutzen are rifle armed !! Which is below AoE level of representation. Where they suddenly find double the number of rifles is a wonder though.
                                                      >
                                                      > Drew
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Sent from my iPhone
                                                      >
                                                      > On 5 Sep 2011, at 22:34, "billh512002" <bhaggart@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > Bill
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > The 1st and 2nd bns were alway five coys in our period the 3rd bn only had four companies but they were not mobilised for field service in 1806 they would have had attached 3pdrs too. I suppose you could form composite reserve brigades for garrison duties with them rated >as Conscript.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Drew:
                                                      > > Frederick William, who became King in 1797 spent several years perseverating over whether four or five companies should make up a battalion.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > The order to increase the schutzen from 10 to 20 I thought was in 1805 and not 1803 and there us some query if the grenadiers and >musketeers managed to carry it out in time.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > From what I understand, it was 1803, but hardly complied with, and so repeated in 1805 among the other 'reforms' attempted at that time. As so much of what individual regiments did was not regulated [it generally a free-for-all where each inspectorate and
                                                      > > regiment could and often did very much as they pleased.] including such things as increasing the schutzen, it is hard to say how many did or didn't carry out the increase.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >Additionally I thought the schutzen were drawn from the full company strength and not by adfing extra men to the ration strength. The Fusiliers and Jagers are supposed to have managed to do it as they were light infantry and they had a ready supply of trained light infantry if not enough rifles (for the Fusiliers.)The schutzen didnt have to be rifled armed and the grenadier and musketeer
                                                      > > schutzen certainly were not rifle armed.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > No, you misunderstood me. A Musketeer battalion has a compliment of:
                                                      > > 22-23 officers, 60 NCOs, 1 artillery NCO, 5 surgeons, 15 drummers, 1 bugler, 17 gunners, 50 schutzen, 600 musketeers, 50 reserves, and 10 sappers, for 831 to 832 men. Both the Grenadiers and Fusiliers also had 40 Reserves listed in their compliment. And they just happen to have four companies. So I am wondering if the 'reserves' were supports for the Schutzen. IF they were, that would put twice as many in the field and 80 to 100 per battalion, which would be close to the French battalions' voltigeur numbers at the time...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > What makes you think the musketeer and Grenadier Schutzen weren't rifle-armed??
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > Its a common error for some people to think the Schutzen, Fusiliers and Jager are the same thing as they shared the same drill manual written by a certain Colonel Yorck.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Colonel Yorck may have written a manual for the Jager regiment before 1806, but he didn't write the Schutzen instructions or the Fusiliers instructions, which were written in 1788-89. Before 1806, the Prussians had scores of drill manuals and instructions floating around, as each regiment did 'their own thing.' Yorck was put in charge of the Jager Regiment sometime after Frederick came to the
                                                      > > Throne to 'save' the regiment, which was being drilled like a line regiment. Paret describes the incident in his book on Yorck and the Prussian reforms. So, certainly Yorck may have written a manual for the Jagers which was shared between interested officers, but it wasn't official and certainly not anything uniform in use.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >The Saxons tried to copy the Prussian way of doing things to some degree but had a desperate shortage of light infantry/schutzen.<
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I'd be interested in where you found that information. They had shutzen in the same numbers organizationally, though they certainly didn't have much in the way of light infantry battalions etc.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >I calculated they only had three AoE stands worth when they converged them all in 1809 from the whole army to form their first light regiment.<
                                                      > >
                                                      > > We are talking about 1806, right? Once the French got a hold of the Saxons, they re-organized them.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >Feeding in third ranks was a common tactic but as Col Bill rightly states probably not effective against properly trained light infantry. I still strongly disagree with his rating if the 1806 Prussian as being incapable of skirmishing when they had similar numbers of skirmishers in a brigade and the Fusiliers are
                                                      > > properly trained and used the same drill manual and training and tactics as the jager regiment.<
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The question is, of course, their actual battlefield performance. Based on that evidence they were 'effective' on a number of ocassions at Jena and Auerstadt,depending on how you define 'effective.'
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > This period in interesting and it is clear that when well led the Prussian were an equal to the French army. Their problem is their C3 when compared to the French system.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I agree with that. It is fascinating to read the Prussian and French AARs and critiques of the battles and what they felt were the factors that led to defeat. For instance, Prince August of Prussia, while a prisoner of the French wrote the King on the failings and needed changes in the army, particularly the light infantry. They probably influenced the King's "Guidlines" when they came out. Clauswitz was the Prince's adjutant and probably helped with the memorandum. He
                                                      > > made three points:
                                                      > > 1. The Prussians needed more trained light infantry.
                                                      > > 2. The schutzen and fusiliers were badly handled by higher command and needed to increase the tactical cooperation between line and light infantry on the field.
                                                      > > 3. The third rank of line battalions should be trained as skirmishers.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Prince August is clear in saying he thought the fusiliers, schutzen and jagers performed well, and that their training in skirmishing itself did not need improvement.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Davout was still debating the use of the third rank compared to whole company deployment in 1810-11. The Prussians never did. The use of the third rank as skirmishers was a long-time practice [used in 1793-1795 for instance] and they obviously didn't see any serious down-sides to incorporating them in their 1812 reforms. So, I would think it was obvious that the Prussians did feel they experienced any negative results from skirmishing with the third rank.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >Davout got lucky when Brunswick was wounded due to no one stepping up to take control and the King proving incapable of giving any orders. The retreat was commanded by Colonel Scharnhorst whilst the remaining generals just followed his commands. Which shows how their mindset worked. At least Hohenlohe managed to keep some semblance of command for a couple of days.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > My 1806 Prussians and French are nearly finished and I am itching to have a big game with them.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >Out of interest do you know if Berthier had managed to rejoin the army from vommanding the Paris resetve by the time of Jena-Auerstadt.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Drew: all that I have read says no. Colonel Vachee wrote "Napoleon and the Campaign of 1806" which is a re-printing of his 1914 book, "Napoleon at Work." As it is specifically written to explore what a Napoleonic commander did during a campaign and battle, particularly Napoleon, it is a great read, though he does
                                                      > > idolize Nappy. According to him, Berthier doesn't appear to have been at either battle.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I look forward to hearing about your 'big game' and hopefully seeing some pictures.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Bill H.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                    • william haggart
                                                      Just pulled Napoleon s German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and two drummers from
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Just pulled Napoleon's German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the
                                                        unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and
                                                        two drummers from each regiment, commanding one corporal and eight privates
                                                        from each musketeer company. My guess is that these are what KZ is referring
                                                        to, and given they were likely ad hoc units detached on the battlefield, I
                                                        doubt if any formal OB would list them. BTW, same uniform as the regular
                                                        infantry except green bicorne plume, and they were rifle armed.


                                                        Bill G.:
                                                        Those were Schutzen, not Jagers, and the Saxons used the same manual and
                                                        general organization as the Prussian Schutzen, hence the then name. They
                                                        could be detached like Prussian Schutzen were, but they were not formed into
                                                        'ad hoc' units during Jena, [by this I assume you to mean more than one
                                                        battalion's-worth were gathered together and operated as a independent unit.
                                                        How Schutzen were to be deployed is outlined in their instructions, their
                                                        primary mission being to support their battalion as skirmishers.

                                                        All the references I have seen to Jaegers from any nation during the
                                                        Napoleonic period and after always refer to independent light infantry
                                                        units, not members of line units like voltigeurs, schutzen etc. For what
                                                        it's worth, Schutzen means 'sharpshooter', Jaeger means 'hunter'. Between
                                                        the various languages and cross translations, it can be hard to keep track.
                                                        I know that Bressonet in his study at least two places translates the German
                                                        'Schutzen' in to the French 'Tirailleurs', which really obscures what the
                                                        Prussians are actually doing, one being a limited number of Prussian
                                                        specialists and Tirailleurs being any infantrymen who are skirmishing.

                                                        Bill H.



                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Drew Jarman
                                                        This is basically correct although it was possible for all of the schutzen of the brigade to be pushed forward together to protect the front of the brigade. So
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          This is basically correct although it was possible for all of the schutzen of the brigade to be pushed forward together to protect the front of the brigade. So assuming the Prussian line infantry were still limited to 10 schutzen per company due to various reasons they could have 240 schutzen protecting the front of two battalions when the brigade was deployed in depth.

                                                          I assume the Saxon would have done a similar thing. This taken with the brigades attached artillery allowed a lot of fire being put out as the French advanced to contact.

                                                          Drew

                                                          Sent from my iPhone

                                                          On 6 Sep 2011, at 15:08, "william haggart" <bhaggart@...> wrote:

                                                          > Just pulled Napoleon's German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the
                                                          > unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and
                                                          > two drummers from each regiment, commanding one corporal and eight privates
                                                          > from each musketeer company. My guess is that these are what KZ is referring
                                                          > to, and given they were likely ad hoc units detached on the battlefield, I
                                                          > doubt if any formal OB would list them. BTW, same uniform as the regular
                                                          > infantry except green bicorne plume, and they were rifle armed.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Bill G.:
                                                          > Those were Schutzen, not Jagers, and the Saxons used the same manual and
                                                          > general organization as the Prussian Schutzen, hence the then name. They
                                                          > could be detached like Prussian Schutzen were, but they were not formed into
                                                          > 'ad hoc' units during Jena, [by this I assume you to mean more than one
                                                          > battalion's-worth were gathered together and operated as a independent unit.
                                                          > How Schutzen were to be deployed is outlined in their instructions, their
                                                          > primary mission being to support their battalion as skirmishers.
                                                          >
                                                          > All the references I have seen to Jaegers from any nation during the
                                                          > Napoleonic period and after always refer to independent light infantry
                                                          > units, not members of line units like voltigeurs, schutzen etc. For what
                                                          > it's worth, Schutzen means 'sharpshooter', Jaeger means 'hunter'. Between
                                                          > the various languages and cross translations, it can be hard to keep track.
                                                          > I know that Bressonet in his study at least two places translates the German
                                                          > 'Schutzen' in to the French 'Tirailleurs', which really obscures what the
                                                          > Prussians are actually doing, one being a limited number of Prussian
                                                          > specialists and Tirailleurs being any infantrymen who are skirmishing.
                                                          >
                                                          > Bill H.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                          >


                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Wilbur Gray
                                                          Understood. Just suggesting what KZ might have thought. I ve worked with several well known board game designers such as Rich Berg and others, and their
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Understood. Just suggesting what KZ might have thought. I've worked with several well known board game designers such as Rich Berg and others, and their knowledge base does not necessarily extend to the level of detail you or I might know.

                                                            Warmest regards,

                                                            /// BILL ///

                                                            Wilbur E Gray
                                                            Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                                            AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+

                                                            http://ageofeagles.grouply.com


                                                            "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides




                                                            To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                                            From: bhaggart@...
                                                            Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 07:08:48 -0700
                                                            Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?




























                                                            Just pulled Napoleon's German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the

                                                            unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and

                                                            two drummers from each regiment, commanding one corporal and eight privates

                                                            from each musketeer company. My guess is that these are what KZ is referring

                                                            to, and given they were likely ad hoc units detached on the battlefield, I

                                                            doubt if any formal OB would list them. BTW, same uniform as the regular

                                                            infantry except green bicorne plume, and they were rifle armed.





                                                            Bill G.:

                                                            Those were Schutzen, not Jagers, and the Saxons used the same manual and

                                                            general organization as the Prussian Schutzen, hence the then name. They

                                                            could be detached like Prussian Schutzen were, but they were not formed into

                                                            'ad hoc' units during Jena, [by this I assume you to mean more than one

                                                            battalion's-worth were gathered together and operated as a independent unit.

                                                            How Schutzen were to be deployed is outlined in their instructions, their

                                                            primary mission being to support their battalion as skirmishers.



                                                            All the references I have seen to Jaegers from any nation during the

                                                            Napoleonic period and after always refer to independent light infantry

                                                            units, not members of line units like voltigeurs, schutzen etc. For what

                                                            it's worth, Schutzen means 'sharpshooter', Jaeger means 'hunter'. Between

                                                            the various languages and cross translations, it can be hard to keep track.

                                                            I know that Bressonet in his study at least two places translates the German

                                                            'Schutzen' in to the French 'Tirailleurs', which really obscures what the

                                                            Prussians are actually doing, one being a limited number of Prussian

                                                            specialists and Tirailleurs being any infantrymen who are skirmishing.



                                                            Bill H.





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                                                          • billh512002
                                                            Bill G.: Gotcha. I don t know what KZ was thinking in this instance. Your guess is probably better than mine. Bill H.
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                                                              Bill G.:

                                                              Gotcha. I don't know what KZ was thinking in this instance. Your guess is probably better than mine.

                                                              Bill H.


                                                              > Understood. Just suggesting what KZ might have thought. I've worked with several well known board game designers such as Rich Berg and others, and their knowledge base does not necessarily extend to the level of detail you or I might know.
                                                              >
                                                              > Warmest regards,
                                                              >
                                                              > /// BILL ///
                                                              >
                                                              > Wilbur E Gray
                                                              > Colonel, US Army (Ret)
                                                              > AOE, PSS, HMGS WFG+
                                                              >
                                                              > http://ageofeagles.grouply.com
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." Thucydides
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > From: bhaggart@...
                                                              > Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 07:08:48 -0700
                                                              > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Twin Battles of 1806 Scenario's?
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                                                              >
                                                              > Just pulled Napoleon's German Allies 3: Saxony 1806 - 1815 by the
                                                              >
                                                              > unbiquitous OVP. He lists the following as Sharpshooters - two officers and
                                                              >
                                                              > two drummers from each regiment, commanding one corporal and eight privates
                                                              >
                                                              > from each musketeer company. My guess is that these are what KZ is referring
                                                              >
                                                              > to, and given they were likely ad hoc units detached on the battlefield, I
                                                              >
                                                              > doubt if any formal OB would list them. BTW, same uniform as the regular
                                                              >
                                                              > infantry except green bicorne plume, and they were rifle armed.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Bill G.:
                                                              >
                                                              > Those were Schutzen, not Jagers, and the Saxons used the same manual and
                                                              >
                                                              > general organization as the Prussian Schutzen, hence the then name. They
                                                              >
                                                              > could be detached like Prussian Schutzen were, but they were not formed into
                                                              >
                                                              > 'ad hoc' units during Jena, [by this I assume you to mean more than one
                                                              >
                                                              > battalion's-worth were gathered together and operated as a independent unit.
                                                              >
                                                              > How Schutzen were to be deployed is outlined in their instructions, their
                                                              >
                                                              > primary mission being to support their battalion as skirmishers.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > All the references I have seen to Jaegers from any nation during the
                                                              >
                                                              > Napoleonic period and after always refer to independent light infantry
                                                              >
                                                              > units, not members of line units like voltigeurs, schutzen etc. For what
                                                              >
                                                              > it's worth, Schutzen means 'sharpshooter', Jaeger means 'hunter'. Between
                                                              >
                                                              > the various languages and cross translations, it can be hard to keep track.
                                                              >
                                                              > I know that Bressonet in his study at least two places translates the German
                                                              >
                                                              > 'Schutzen' in to the French 'Tirailleurs', which really obscures what the
                                                              >
                                                              > Prussians are actually doing, one being a limited number of Prussian
                                                              >
                                                              > specialists and Tirailleurs being any infantrymen who are skirmishing.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Bill H.
                                                              >
                                                              >
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                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              >
                                                            • billh512002
                                                              ... Drew: The actual deployment of the schutzen and their control seems to have been at the regimental level except for the grenadier brigades. For instance,
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Sep 6, 2011
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                                                                Drew wrote:
                                                                > This is basically correct although it was possible for all of the schutzen of the brigade to be pushed forward together to protect the front of the brigade. So assuming the Prussian line infantry were still limited to 10 schutzen per company due to various reasons they could have 240 schutzen protecting the front of two battalions when the brigade was deployed in depth.

                                                                Drew:
                                                                The actual deployment of the schutzen and their control seems to have been at the regimental level except for the grenadier brigades. For instance, it is the Colonel of the Hohenlohe regiment that gives the mission to the Captain of the Schutzen and reinforces him several times with volunteers. Those two battalions in line would have taken about about 400 yards, which 100 Schutzen with possibly 100 reserves would have covered with a skirmisher every 5 paces of front, fairly standard for all nations.

                                                                We see Stanitz dealing with the Grenadier schutzen of his brigade as a single entity, reinforcing them with the third rank, but that isn't the general approach during Jena, or Auerstadt for that matter, save Clausewitz's brigade. It seems the regimental colonels were in control of the schutzen from their command rather than an overall brigade approach.

                                                                It is different. For instance, in his AAR, the colonel of the Hohenlohe regiment describes how the Schutzen and Fusiliers clear the Issentadt Forest of French Tirailleurs at one point, implying that some of them were his Schutzen and volunteers. The strange thing is this: The Hohenlohe regiment was situated more than 1000 yards and another brigade way from the forest. So why would HE describe [or even know about] that action in HIS AAR? Because, as implied, part of his regiment was involved and in some way still 'under his command.' This suggests that there was some unified command outside the regiment or brigade directing the light troops in where they deployed etc. if only by proximity.

                                                                > I assume the Saxon would have done a similar thing. This taken with the brigades attached artillery allowed a lot of fire being put out as >the French advanced to contact.

                                                                Yes, the Saxon and Prussian responses were very similar.

                                                                Bill H.
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