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Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Battle field size

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  • LUCASWILLEN05@aol.com
    Sorry, I just cannot buy the idea of 1 base representing a brigade. I also tried V & B some years ago and found them too overly simplistic for my taste.
    Message 1 of 34 , Mar 30, 2008
      Sorry, I just cannot buy the idea of 1 base representing a brigade. I also
      tried V & B some years ago and found them too overly simplistic for my taste.
      Besides, since I already have lots of 2mm figures from my very earliest
      wargaming days I might as well use them.

      Good gaming
      Luke

      In a message dated 30/03/2008 19:32:54 GMT Standard Time, RG1066@...
      writes:




      I prefer Grande Armee to V&B. It is like V&B with detailed command
      rules. I prefer AoE to GA unless the battle is huge or has to be
      completed in a short time.

      Rich Gause

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Geoff Wootten <_gawmar@..._ (mailto:gawmar@...) >
      To: _NapoleonicFireandFuNapoleonicFireaNap_
      (mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com)
      Sent: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:31 pm
      Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFSubject: [NapoleonicFireandF<W

      Without detracting from AOE in any way, if you are going this mega
      scale of gaming have you had a look at Volley and Bayonet? Each base
      of troops = 1 brigade (2,500 men) and the base can be as small as 1.5"
      square. this means that you can use, say, 6mm troops with a much
      better visual impression than 2mm and still keep it within a compact
      area. There is a scenario book for the rules which includes Wagram,
      and I've played it in a day on more than one occasion. Its a closely
      balanced scenario too. You need an L shaped table, if you include the
      Bavarians. They dont do much though, and I tend to leave them and that
      part of the "L" of the table out

      _http://homepages.http://hohttp://homepagehttp://_
      (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mcnelly/vnb.htm)

      _http://games.http://games.http://gamhttp://_
      (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vnblist)

      I wouldn't buy VnB rules at the mo, there's a new version coming out
      which is much much better. They might let you have a set in pre-pub
      format if you ask nicely!

      You are right about the Grande Armee btw. Napoleon should have stopped
      at Tilsit.

      Geoff

      --- In _NapoleonicFireandFuNapoleonicFireaNap_
      (mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com) , LUCASWILLEN05@, LUCA
      >
      >
      > Well yes, I could buy a boardgame, although given the cost of the
      average
      > boardgame these days a 2mm Wagram or Leipzig could well work out
      cheaper and you
      > could always use them for other battles rather than purchasing
      multiple
      > boardgames.
      >
      > Having said that a battle of the scale of Wagram would have to be a
      club
      > project and probablyy gamed over multiple sittings whatever rules
      or figures
      > were used. Having said that, for me Wagram is one of the most
      fascinating
      > battles of the era for the grand tactical skill demonstrated by
      Napoleon in saving
      > the battle and achieving a victory that, to all intents and
      purposes won the
      > war of 1809 even after Bernadotte's rout at Aderklaa and the Archduke
      > Charles' flanking manuever. Indeed, it could be argued that Charles
      might even have
      > won at Wagram had he been able to keep his attack going.
      >
      > Even so to my mind almost fatal damage was done to the old Grande
      Armee at
      > Wagram. To all intents and purposed I believe that the old Grande
      Armee
      > finally died on the field of Wagram. Certainly, the army that
      invaded Russia was
      > by no means of the quality of the 1809 army. This in turn had its
      > deficienceies compared to the 1805 - 1807 Grande Armee.
      >
      > This means that for me the battle of Wagram is a worthy subject for a
      > miniatures game. However, it must me done within the limitations of
      the available
      > table size I have (no room for further expansion) Combined with the
      costs of
      > using any larger scale, even 5mm this leaves 2mm as the only
      practical option
      > for me for this project. Other people may not have the same
      restrictions and,
      > if this is the case, by all means use the larger scales.For most
      battles I
      > find that 5mm figures are actually the best option.
      >
      > Luke
      >
      > In a message dated 27/03/:03:00 GMT Standard Time, gawmar@...
      > writes:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In _NapoleonicFireandF --- In _Nap ---
      > (mailto:_NapoleonicFireandFuNapoleonicFireaNap_
      (mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com) ) , LUCASWILLEN05@)
      > it
      > > would be possible to refight Wagram in 2mm if I used a ground scale
      > of 1cm =
      > > 100 yards but only if I cut off the most westerly part of the
      > Marchfeld and
      > > brought the Austrian III and VI Corps on as a reinforcement during
      > the first
      > > one or two turns of the game.
      >
      > Or you could just buy a boardgame. 1mm = 10 yards really wouldnt do it
      > for me as a figure game, even if I could keep my eyesight!
      >
      > I use an 8 x 6 (actually 2 x 6x4 tables used together) and I can do
      > most of the AOE battles I want to do on it. Wagram and Leipzig would
      > definitely be club projects as far as I'm concerned, but a Ligny,
      > Borodino etc would fit on comfortably.
      >
      > Geoff
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >












      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Geoff Wootten
      ... Well if you can accept 5 sq cms as representing approx a btn in AOE, I dont see why 10 times that size is an issue for a brigade. At VnB scale the player
      Message 34 of 34 , Apr 3, 2008
        --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, LUCASWILLEN05@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Sorry, I just cannot buy the idea of 1 base representing a brigade.

        Well if you can accept 5 sq cms as representing approx a btn in AOE, I
        dont see why 10 times that size is an issue for a brigade.

        At VnB scale the player is an army commander, so he is concerned with
        wing and corps operations/formations and the interplay between corps.

        At AOE the player is probably a corps commander (couild be wing comm I
        suppose), so he is concerned with division and brigade
        operations/formations an the interplay at multi-battalion level.

        For both sets of rules, what happens below or within the lowest level
        of involvement is someone else's job - a Corps or Divisional or
        Brigade commander. Neither have the players choosing case shot or
        round shot for example, or deciding when to form square or send out
        skirmisher screens.

        Both rules give the player realistic decisions to make at that level
        of command, and abstract the stuff below. Seems to work compared to
        say Empire or Legacy of Glory, where the player is nominally Napoleon
        et al but still chooses what he loads in his cannon, when to fire it
        and what formation his battalions are in!

        Ive never had a duff game of either VnB or AOE (CyberHorsemen apart),
        so that must say something!

        Geoff


        I also
        > tried V & B some years ago and found them too overly simplistic for
        my taste.
        > Besides, since I already have lots of 2mm figures from my very
        earliest
        > wargaming days I might as well use them.
        >
        > Good gaming
        > Luke
        >
        > In a message dated 30/03/:32:54 GMT Standard Time, RG1066@...
        > writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I prefer Grande Armee to V&B. It is like V&B with detailed command
        > rules. I prefer AoE to GA unless the battle is huge or has to be
        > completed in a short time.
        >
        > Rich Gause
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Geoff Wootten <_gawmar@..._ (mailto:gawmar@...) >
        > To: _NapoleonicFireandFuNapoleonicFireaNap_
        > (mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com)
        > Sent: Sun, 30 Mar :31 pm
        > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFSubject: [NapoleonicFireandF<W
        >
        > Without detracting from AOE in any way, if you are going this mega
        > scale of gaming have you had a look at Volley and Bayonet? Each base
        > of troops = 1 brigade (2,500 men) and the base can be as small as 1.5"
        > square. this means that you can use, say, 6mm troops with a much
        > better visual impression than 2mm and still keep it within a compact
        > area. There is a scenario book for the rules which includes Wagram,
        > and I've played it in a day on more than one occasion. Its a closely
        > balanced scenario too. You need an L shaped table, if you include the
        > Bavarians. They dont do much though, and I tend to leave them and that
        > part of the "L" of the table out
        >
        > _http://homepages.http://hohttp://homepagehttp://_
        > (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mcnelly/vnb.htm)
        >
        > _http://games.http://games.http://gamhttp://_
        > (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vnblist)
        >
        > I wouldn't buy VnB rules at the mo, there's a new version coming out
        > which is much much better. They might let you have a set in pre-pub
        > format if you ask nicely!
        >
        > You are right about the Grande Armee btw. Napoleon should have stopped
        > at Tilsit.
        >
        > Geoff
        >
        > --- In _NapoleonicFireandFuNapoleonicFireaNap_
        > (mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com) , LUCASWILLEN05@, LUCA
        > >
        > >
        > > Well yes, I could buy a boardgame, although given the cost of the
        > average
        > > boardgame these days a 2mm Wagram or Leipzig could well work out
        > cheaper and you
        > > could always use them for other battles rather than purchasing
        > multiple
        > > boardgames.
        > >
        > > Having said that a battle of the scale of Wagram would have to be a
        > club
        > > project and probablyy gamed over multiple sittings whatever rules
        > or figures
        > > were used. Having said that, for me Wagram is one of the most
        > fascinating
        > > battles of the era for the grand tactical skill demonstrated by
        > Napoleon in saving
        > > the battle and achieving a victory that, to all intents and
        > purposes won the
        > > war of 1809 even after Bernadotte's rout at Aderklaa and the Archduke
        > > Charles' flanking manuever. Indeed, it could be argued that Charles
        > might even have
        > > won at Wagram had he been able to keep his attack going.
        > >
        > > Even so to my mind almost fatal damage was done to the old Grande
        > Armee at
        > > Wagram. To all intents and purposed I believe that the old Grande
        > Armee
        > > finally died on the field of Wagram. Certainly, the army that
        > invaded Russia was
        > > by no means of the quality of the 1809 army. This in turn had its
        > > deficienceies compared to the 1805 - 1807 Grande Armee.
        > >
        > > This means that for me the battle of Wagram is a worthy subject for a
        > > miniatures game. However, it must me done within the limitations of
        > the available
        > > table size I have (no room for further expansion) Combined with the
        > costs of
        > > using any larger scale, even 5mm this leaves 2mm as the only
        > practical option
        > > for me for this project. Other people may not have the same
        > restrictions and,
        > > if this is the case, by all means use the larger scales.For most
        > battles I
        > > find that 5mm figures are actually the best option.
        > >
        > > Luke
        > >
        > > In a message dated 27/03/:03:00 GMT Standard Time, gawmar@
        > > writes:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In _NapoleonicFireandF --- In _Nap ---
        > > (mailto:_NapoleonicFireandFuNapoleonicFireaNap_
        > (mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com) ) , LUCASWILLEN05@)
        > > it
        > > > would be possible to refight Wagram in 2mm if I used a ground scale
        > > of 1cm =
        > > > 100 yards but only if I cut off the most westerly part of the
        > > Marchfeld and
        > > > brought the Austrian III and VI Corps on as a reinforcement during
        > > the first
        > > > one or two turns of the game.
        > >
        > > Or you could just buy a boardgame. 1mm = 10 yards really wouldnt
        do it
        > > for me as a figure game, even if I could keep my eyesight!
        > >
        > > I use an 8 x 6 (actually 2 x 6x4 tables used together) and I can do
        > > most of the AOE battles I want to do on it. Wagram and Leipzig would
        > > definitely be club projects as far as I'm concerned, but a Ligny,
        > > Borodino etc would fit on comfortably.
        > >
        > > Geoff
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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