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Couple of quick rule questions

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  • billrun101
    Hi I m fairly new to these rules and we played a game at our club last week where the following questions arose: 1) Given that cavalry are automatically
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 1, 2007
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      Hi

      I'm fairly new to these rules and we played a game at our club last
      week where the following questions arose:

      1) Given that cavalry are automatically disordered following a combat,
      does the disorder come into effect before or after a victorious
      cavalry unit carries out a breakthrough charge?

      2) When two or more units attack one and they receive casualties
      during the Bayonet & Sabre phase, does each unit suffer casualties?
      For instance, if three units charge one but are repulsed with a
      difference of 4-6, does the attacking player lose 1 stand from each of
      the three units, or just 1 stand from 1 of the units?

      It would be great to be able to clarify these issues before next
      week's game.

      Thanks very much!

      Bill
    • John Watts
      ... combat, ... I think that they become disordered at the end of the B&S phase. The breakthrough is part of the B&S phase, so after the breakthrough. ... of
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 2, 2007
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        --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "billrun101"
        <Bill.run@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi
        >
        > I'm fairly new to these rules and we played a game at our club last
        > week where the following questions arose:
        >
        > 1) Given that cavalry are automatically disordered following a
        combat,
        > does the disorder come into effect before or after a victorious
        > cavalry unit carries out a breakthrough charge?

        I think that they become disordered at the end of the B&S phase. The
        breakthrough is part of the B&S phase, so after the breakthrough.

        > 2) When two or more units attack one and they receive casualties
        > during the Bayonet & Sabre phase, does each unit suffer casualties?
        > For instance, if three units charge one but are repulsed with a
        > difference of 4-6, does the attacking player lose 1 stand from each
        of
        > the three units, or just 1 stand from 1 of the units?

        Just the one stand - owner chooses which unit to take it from.

        > It would be great to be able to clarify these issues before next
        > week's game.
        >
        > Thanks very much!
        >
        > Bill
        >
      • Richard Lawrence
        Hi Bill Question 1 Unit disordered after first combat (page 54 - Disorders from the initial round of melee combat do apply to any units involved in this
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 2, 2007
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          Hi Bill

          Question 1

          Unit disordered after first combat (page 54 - "Disorders from the
          initial round of melee combat do apply to any units involved in this
          second round.")

          Question 2

          Only 1 stand is lost for the whole combat - owner chooses which
          brigade.

          Regards Richard

          --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "billrun101"
          <Bill.run@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi
          >
          > I'm fairly new to these rules and we played a game at our club last
          > week where the following questions arose:
          >
          > 1) Given that cavalry are automatically disordered following a
          combat,
          > does the disorder come into effect before or after a victorious
          > cavalry unit carries out a breakthrough charge?
          >
          > 2) When two or more units attack one and they receive casualties
          > during the Bayonet & Sabre phase, does each unit suffer casualties?
          > For instance, if three units charge one but are repulsed with a
          > difference of 4-6, does the attacking player lose 1 stand from each
          of
          > the three units, or just 1 stand from 1 of the units?
          >
          > It would be great to be able to clarify these issues before next
          > week's game.
          >
          > Thanks very much!
          >
          > Bill
          >
        • lkss22641@aol.com
          Guys, On question # 2, I believe that the right answer is that all the losing brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire combat, the front rank unit
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 2, 2007
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            Guys,

            On question # 2, I believe that the right answer is that all the losing
            brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire combat, the front rank unit
            would lose the stand first, then support units (p. 44). But in B&S (p. 46) it
            states that all participating brigades suffer all the effects of the combat
            (emphasis mine).

            I actually asked this several months ago and remember getting the answer I
            provided here....but I have to admit, the lack of others speaking up on this
            now has me wondering again....

            Kevin
            Albuquerque, NM



            ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Richard Lawrence
            Hi Guys, Kevin has a point with the reference on page 46. Our interpretation is that the Effects applies to one melee and the losses applied to the whole
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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              Hi Guys,

              Kevin has a point with the reference on page 46.

              Our interpretation is that the 'Effects' applies to one melee and the
              losses applied to the whole combat not each participating brigade in
              the combat.

              For example, 2 brigades attacking a single brigade and the single
              brigade wins by inflicting a 'driven back' result - one casualty
              stand and disorder. We apply 1 casualty (owner chooses which brigade
              and both are disordered). Looking for confirmation or otherwise.

              Regards, Richard

              --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, lkss22641@... wrote:
              >
              > Guys,
              >
              > On question # 2, I believe that the right answer is that all the
              losing
              > brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire combat, the front
              rank unit
              > would lose the stand first, then support units (p. 44). But in
              B&S (p. 46) it
              > states that all participating brigades suffer all the effects of
              the combat
              > (emphasis mine).
              >
              > I actually asked this several months ago and remember getting the
              answer I
              > provided here....but I have to admit, the lack of others speaking
              up on this
              > now has me wondering again....
              >
              > Kevin
              > Albuquerque, NM
              >
              >
              >
              > ************************************** See what's free at
              http://www.aol.com
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Mike Irvin
              I d agree with Richard, 1 brigade losses a stand and both are dis-ordered. In other rulesets I play casualties are shared when there are more than 1 unit on
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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                I'd agree with Richard, 1 brigade losses a stand and both are dis-ordered.
                In other rulesets I play casualties are shared when there are more than 1 unit on either or both sides of the conflict
                To take a stand off each Brigade is grossly overstating the effects of the contest, no matter which rule-set is being used

                Regards, Mike

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Richard Lawrence <lawrence50ra@...>
                To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, 3 July, 2007 8:42:44 AM
                Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of quick rule questions

                Hi Guys,

                Kevin has a point with the reference on page 46.

                Our interpretation is that the 'Effects' applies to one melee and the
                losses applied to the whole combat not each participating brigade in
                the combat.

                For example, 2 brigades attacking a single brigade and the single
                brigade wins by inflicting a 'driven back' result - one casualty
                stand and disorder. We apply 1 casualty (owner chooses which brigade
                and both are disordered). Looking for confirmation or otherwise.

                Regards, Richard

                --- In NapoleonicFireandFu ry@yahoogroups. com, lkss22641@.. . wrote:
                >
                > Guys,
                >
                > On question # 2, I believe that the right answer is that all the
                losing
                > brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire combat, the front
                rank unit
                > would lose the stand first, then support units (p. 44). But in
                B&S (p. 46) it
                > states that all participating brigades suffer all the effects of
                the combat
                > (emphasis mine).
                >
                > I actually asked this several months ago and remember getting the
                answer I
                > provided here....but I have to admit, the lack of others speaking
                up on this
                > now has me wondering again....
                >
                > Kevin
                > Albuquerque, NM
                >
                >
                >
                > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at
                http://www.aol com.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                ___________________________________________________________
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              • swihartmark@aol.com
                I would have to say common sense rules in this matter. I totally agree with you and I have been playing this way for quite some time. The math alone, as
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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                  I would have to say common sense rules in this matter. I totally agree with
                  you and I have been playing this way for quite some time. The math alone,
                  as you stated, just doesn't support taking two casualties instead of one.

                  Best Regards,

                  Mark Swihart



                  ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael J Rieder
                  That is the way we play it Agree with Mike and Richard Michael Rieder ... From: Mike Irvin Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2007 9:17 am
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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                    That is the way we play it

                    Agree with Mike and Richard

                    Michael Rieder

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mike Irvin <michaeljohnirvin@...>
                    Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2007 9:17 am
                    Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of quick rule questions
                    To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com

                    > I'd agree with Richard, 1 brigade losses a stand and both are
                    > dis-ordered.
                    > In other rulesets I play casualties are shared when there are
                    > more than 1 unit on either or both sides of the conflict
                    > To take a stand off each Brigade is grossly overstating the
                    > effects of the contest, no matter which rule-set is being used
                    >
                    > Regards, Mike
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: Richard Lawrence <lawrence50ra@...>
                    > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, 3 July, 2007 8:42:44 AM
                    > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of quick rule questions
                    >
                    > Hi Guys,
                    >
                    > Kevin has a point with the reference on page 46.
                    >
                    > Our interpretation is that the 'Effects' applies to one melee
                    > and the
                    > losses applied to the whole combat not each participating
                    > brigade in
                    > the combat.
                    >
                    > For example, 2 brigades attacking a single brigade and the
                    > single
                    > brigade wins by inflicting a 'driven back' result - one casualty
                    > stand and disorder. We apply 1 casualty (owner chooses which
                    > brigade
                    > and both are disordered). Looking for confirmation or otherwise.
                    >
                    > Regards, Richard
                    >
                    > --- In NapoleonicFireandFu ry@yahoogroups. com, lkss22641@.. . wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Guys,
                    > >
                    > > On question # 2, I believe that the right answer is that all
                    > the
                    > losing
                    > > brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire combat, the
                    > front
                    > rank unit
                    > > would lose the stand first, then support units (p. 44). But in
                    > B&S (p. 46) it
                    > > states that all participating brigades suffer all the effects
                    > of
                    > the combat
                    > > (emphasis mine).
                    > >
                    > > I actually asked this several months ago and remember getting
                    > the
                    > answer I
                    > > provided here....but I have to admit, the lack of others
                    > speaking
                    > up on this
                    > > now has me wondering again....
                    > >
                    > > Kevin
                    > > Albuquerque, NM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at
                    > http://www.aol com.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ___________________________________________________________
                    > Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for
                    > less, sign up for
                    > your free account today
                    > http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • uu uiu
                    Without getting to technical on the subject, you have the target shooting at two attackers, thus splitting the fire of the target, or the target shooting at
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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                      Without getting to technical on the subject, you have
                      the target shooting at two attackers, thus splitting
                      the fire of the target, or the target shooting at the
                      bigger threat. In either case it would seem casualties
                      would be light for both or heavy on one. Since you
                      can't half a stand for casualty purposes for each
                      attacker, one stand should be suffice for both. Plus
                      that's the way I play it as well. Any comments on
                      this Col. Bill????

                      Ross
                      Sgt. U.S. Army
                      --- Michael J Rieder <mrieder@...> wrote:

                      > That is the way we play it
                      >
                      > Agree with Mike and Richard
                      >
                      > Michael Rieder
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Mike Irvin <michaeljohnirvin@...>
                      > Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2007 9:17 am
                      > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of
                      > quick rule questions
                      > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > I'd agree with Richard, 1 brigade losses a stand
                      > and both are
                      > > dis-ordered.
                      > > In other rulesets I play casualties are shared
                      > when there are
                      > > more than 1 unit on either or both sides of the
                      > conflict
                      > > To take a stand off each Brigade is grossly
                      > overstating the
                      > > effects of the contest, no matter which rule-set
                      > is being used
                      > >
                      > > Regards, Mike
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message ----
                      > > From: Richard Lawrence <lawrence50ra@...>
                      > > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 July, 2007 8:42:44 AM
                      > > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of
                      > quick rule questions
                      > >
                      > > Hi Guys,
                      > >
                      > > Kevin has a point with the reference on page 46.
                      > >
                      > > Our interpretation is that the 'Effects' applies
                      > to one melee
                      > > and the
                      > > losses applied to the whole combat not each
                      > participating
                      > > brigade in
                      > > the combat.
                      > >
                      > > For example, 2 brigades attacking a single brigade
                      > and the
                      > > single
                      > > brigade wins by inflicting a 'driven back' result
                      > - one casualty
                      > > stand and disorder. We apply 1 casualty (owner
                      > chooses which
                      > > brigade
                      > > and both are disordered). Looking for confirmation
                      > or otherwise.
                      > >
                      > > Regards, Richard
                      > >
                      > > --- In NapoleonicFireandFu ry@yahoogroups. com,
                      > lkss22641@.. . wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Guys,
                      > > >
                      > > > On question # 2, I believe that the right answer
                      > is that all
                      > > the
                      > > losing
                      > > > brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire
                      > combat, the
                      > > front
                      > > rank unit
                      > > > would lose the stand first, then support units
                      > (p. 44). But in
                      > > B&S (p. 46) it
                      > > > states that all participating brigades suffer
                      > all the effects
                      > > of
                      > > the combat
                      > > > (emphasis mine).
                      > > >
                      > > > I actually asked this several months ago and
                      > remember getting
                      > > the
                      > > answer I
                      > > > provided here....but I have to admit, the lack
                      > of others
                      > > speaking
                      > > up on this
                      > > > now has me wondering again....
                      > > >
                      > > > Kevin
                      > > > Albuquerque, NM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See
                      > what's free at
                      > > http://www.aol com.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      ___________________________________________________________
                      > > Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't
                      > settle for
                      > > less, sign up for
                      > > your free account today
                      > >
                      >
                      http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >




                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
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                    • COL (R) Bill Gray
                      Yup, correct. Ciao, COL Bill ... http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html ... you all the tools to get online.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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                        Yup, correct.

                        Ciao, COL Bill

                        --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, uu uiu <rwinger22@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Without getting to technical on the subject, you have
                        > the target shooting at two attackers, thus splitting
                        > the fire of the target, or the target shooting at the
                        > bigger threat. In either case it would seem casualties
                        > would be light for both or heavy on one. Since you
                        > can't half a stand for casualty purposes for each
                        > attacker, one stand should be suffice for both. Plus
                        > that's the way I play it as well. Any comments on
                        > this Col. Bill????
                        >
                        > Ross
                        > Sgt. U.S. Army
                        > --- Michael J Rieder <mrieder@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > That is the way we play it
                        > >
                        > > Agree with Mike and Richard
                        > >
                        > > Michael Rieder
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Mike Irvin <michaeljohnirvin@...>
                        > > Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2007 9:17 am
                        > > Subject: Re: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of
                        > > quick rule questions
                        > > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > > I'd agree with Richard, 1 brigade losses a stand
                        > > and both are
                        > > > dis-ordered.
                        > > > In other rulesets I play casualties are shared
                        > > when there are
                        > > > more than 1 unit on either or both sides of the
                        > > conflict
                        > > > To take a stand off each Brigade is grossly
                        > > overstating the
                        > > > effects of the contest, no matter which rule-set
                        > > is being used
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards, Mike
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message ----
                        > > > From: Richard Lawrence <lawrence50ra@...>
                        > > > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 July, 2007 8:42:44 AM
                        > > > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of
                        > > quick rule questions
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Guys,
                        > > >
                        > > > Kevin has a point with the reference on page 46.
                        > > >
                        > > > Our interpretation is that the 'Effects' applies
                        > > to one melee
                        > > > and the
                        > > > losses applied to the whole combat not each
                        > > participating
                        > > > brigade in
                        > > > the combat.
                        > > >
                        > > > For example, 2 brigades attacking a single brigade
                        > > and the
                        > > > single
                        > > > brigade wins by inflicting a 'driven back' result
                        > > - one casualty
                        > > > stand and disorder. We apply 1 casualty (owner
                        > > chooses which
                        > > > brigade
                        > > > and both are disordered). Looking for confirmation
                        > > or otherwise.
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards, Richard
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In NapoleonicFireandFu ry@yahoogroups. com,
                        > > lkss22641@ . wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Guys,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On question # 2, I believe that the right answer
                        > > is that all
                        > > > the
                        > > > losing
                        > > > > brigades lose 1 stand. Note that if it were fire
                        > > combat, the
                        > > > front
                        > > > rank unit
                        > > > > would lose the stand first, then support units
                        > > (p. 44). But in
                        > > > B&S (p. 46) it
                        > > > > states that all participating brigades suffer
                        > > all the effects
                        > > > of
                        > > > the combat
                        > > > > (emphasis mine).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I actually asked this several months ago and
                        > > remember getting
                        > > > the
                        > > > answer I
                        > > > > provided here....but I have to admit, the lack
                        > > of others
                        > > > speaking
                        > > > up on this
                        > > > > now has me wondering again....
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Kevin
                        > > > > Albuquerque, NM
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ************ ********* ********* ******** See
                        > > what's free at
                        > > > http://www.aol com.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > ___________________________________________________________
                        > > > Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't
                        > > settle for
                        > > > less, sign up for
                        > > > your free account today
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives
                        you all the tools to get online.
                        > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
                        >
                      • lkss22641@aol.com
                        Since the oracle has spoken, I admit the error of my ways! ************************************** See what s free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 3, 2007
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                          Since the oracle has spoken, I admit the error of my ways!



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                        • billrun101
                          Hi Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions last week. We seem to have pretty much a consensus on casualties after a bayonet and sabre, but not
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 8, 2007
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                            Hi

                            Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions last week.

                            We seem to have pretty much a consensus on casualties after a bayonet
                            and sabre, but not on the issue of whether or not cavalry become
                            disordered before they carry out a breakthrough charge. Does anyone
                            have any further thoughts on this issue?

                            Thanks

                            Bill
                          • Richard Lawrence
                            Bill, On my original reply I included the the page reference where the information is included. The cavalry are disordered at the end of the first charge
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                              Bill,

                              On my original reply I included the the page reference where the
                              information is included. The cavalry are disordered at the end of
                              the first charge (melee) therefore disordered when calculating
                              the 'Breakthrough' Bayonet and Sabre melee.

                              Page 54, column 2, 3rd paragraph, sentence starting "Disorders from
                              the initial round of melee combat do apply to any units involved in
                              this second round."

                              Regards, Richard

                              --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "billrun101"
                              <Bill.run@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi
                              >
                              > Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions last week.
                              >
                              > We seem to have pretty much a consensus on casualties after a
                              bayonet
                              > and sabre, but not on the issue of whether or not cavalry become
                              > disordered before they carry out a breakthrough charge. Does anyone
                              > have any further thoughts on this issue?
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              > Bill
                              >
                            • Tim Thompson
                              Richard and Bill The rule reference given does not actually answer Bill s question. The rule is given on page 49 under cavalry charge and says that ...cavalry
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                Richard and Bill

                                The rule reference given does not actually answer Bill's question.

                                The rule is given on page 49 under cavalry charge and says
                                that "...cavalry is automatically Disordered at the end of the
                                Bayonet and Sabre Phase...". The Bayonet and Sabre Phase includes
                                breakthrough charges so the Disorder from this cause does not take
                                place until after the breakthrough charge.

                                Richard's citation from page 54 "Disorders from the initial round of
                                melee combat do apply to any units involved in this second round."
                                does not say that breakthrough charges are automatically disordered,
                                it simply says that if you were already disordered during the first
                                charge you will still be disordered during the breakthrough.

                                Regards
                                Tim


                                --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Lawrence"
                                <lawrence50ra@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Bill,
                                >
                                > On my original reply I included the the page reference where the
                                > information is included. The cavalry are disordered at the end of
                                > the first charge (melee) therefore disordered when calculating
                                > the 'Breakthrough' Bayonet and Sabre melee.
                                >
                                > Page 54, column 2, 3rd paragraph, sentence starting "Disorders
                                from
                                > the initial round of melee combat do apply to any units involved
                                in
                                > this second round."
                                >
                                > Regards, Richard
                                >
                                > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "billrun101"
                                > <Bill.run@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi
                                > >
                                > > Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions last
                                week.
                                > >
                                > > We seem to have pretty much a consensus on casualties after a
                                > bayonet
                                > > and sabre, but not on the issue of whether or not cavalry become
                                > > disordered before they carry out a breakthrough charge. Does
                                anyone
                                > > have any further thoughts on this issue?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks
                                > >
                                > > Bill
                                > >
                                >
                              • Col Bill Gray
                                Tim is correct (thanks for saving me the trouble of looking it up . Regards, Bill G ... From: Tim Thompson To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                  Tim is correct (thanks for saving me the trouble of looking it up .

                                  Regards, Bill G

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Tim Thompson
                                  To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:14 AM
                                  Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of quick rule questions


                                  Richard and Bill

                                  The rule reference given does not actually answer Bill's question.

                                  The rule is given on page 49 under cavalry charge and says
                                  that "...cavalry is automatically Disordered at the end of the
                                  Bayonet and Sabre Phase...". The Bayonet and Sabre Phase includes
                                  breakthrough charges so the Disorder from this cause does not take
                                  place until after the breakthrough charge.

                                  Richard's citation from page 54 "Disorders from the initial round of
                                  melee combat do apply to any units involved in this second round."
                                  does not say that breakthrough charges are automatically disordered,
                                  it simply says that if you were already disordered during the first
                                  charge you will still be disordered during the breakthrough.

                                  Regards
                                  Tim

                                  --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Lawrence"
                                  <lawrence50ra@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Bill,
                                  >
                                  > On my original reply I included the the page reference where the
                                  > information is included. The cavalry are disordered at the end of
                                  > the first charge (melee) therefore disordered when calculating
                                  > the 'Breakthrough' Bayonet and Sabre melee.
                                  >
                                  > Page 54, column 2, 3rd paragraph, sentence starting "Disorders
                                  from
                                  > the initial round of melee combat do apply to any units involved
                                  in
                                  > this second round."
                                  >
                                  > Regards, Richard
                                  >
                                  > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "billrun101"
                                  > <Bill.run@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi
                                  > >
                                  > > Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions last
                                  week.
                                  > >
                                  > > We seem to have pretty much a consensus on casualties after a
                                  > bayonet
                                  > > and sabre, but not on the issue of whether or not cavalry become
                                  > > disordered before they carry out a breakthrough charge. Does
                                  anyone
                                  > > have any further thoughts on this issue?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks
                                  > >
                                  > > Bill
                                  > >
                                  >





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Aleix Dorca
                                  What about forgetting whatever the rules say (or not say)... and just think a bit about the REAL issue... probably (emphasis on probably) one of the assets
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                    What about forgetting whatever the rules say (or not say)... and just think
                                    a bit about the REAL issue... probably (emphasis on probably) one of the
                                    assets needed to achieve a breakthrough charge is for the cavalry to be IN A
                                    BODY ANSWERING TO COMMANDS... so... doesn't THAT implie some kind of order
                                    in their ranks?... this is the first point raised which really has
                                    interested me in a long time... BUT let's do not try the lawyer's loophole
                                    attitude to it!...



                                    Aleix Dorca



                                    PS: Nothing personal against lawyers... even my daughter is one of them!...
                                    but she lost 10 euros backing Nadal against Federer and now we are even!...
                                    (we only bet strictly in the family!... LOL).



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Richard Lawrence
                                    Tim and Bill, I can accept your interpretation and apply it from now on but I still do have some doubts about clarity. Maybe in this case I am just reading a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                      Tim and Bill,

                                      I can accept your interpretation and apply it from now on but I still
                                      do have some doubts about clarity. Maybe in this case I am just
                                      reading a negative result and you a positive one.

                                      The statement on page 51, 3rd bullet point, states ".....,
                                      countercharging cavalry becomes disordered at the end of Bayonet &
                                      Sabre Phase (ie, both initial and Breakthrough charges) .......... I
                                      think this can be interpreted in two ways (language is brilliant).
                                      The first as Tim has identified and Bill has confirmed or they are
                                      disordered in both the initial charge and breakthrough (no additional
                                      effect) but countercharging cavalry in the breakthrough phase are
                                      also disordered whether victorious or not.

                                      As stated before it is probably me just over reading the situation.
                                      Also, all the results of B&S are applied from the initial round
                                      before any breakthrough charges were recalculated. Your thoughts
                                      appreciated.

                                      Regards Richard

                                      --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Col Bill Gray"
                                      <hmgs1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Tim is correct (thanks for saving me the trouble of looking it up .
                                      >
                                      > Regards, Bill G
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Tim Thompson
                                      > To: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:14 AM
                                      > Subject: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: Couple of quick rule
                                      questions
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Richard and Bill
                                      >
                                      > The rule reference given does not actually answer Bill's
                                      question.
                                      >
                                      > The rule is given on page 49 under cavalry charge and says
                                      > that "...cavalry is automatically Disordered at the end of the
                                      > Bayonet and Sabre Phase...". The Bayonet and Sabre Phase includes
                                      > breakthrough charges so the Disorder from this cause does not
                                      take
                                      > place until after the breakthrough charge.
                                      >
                                      > Richard's citation from page 54 "Disorders from the initial round
                                      of
                                      > melee combat do apply to any units involved in this second
                                      round."
                                      > does not say that breakthrough charges are automatically
                                      disordered,
                                      > it simply says that if you were already disordered during the
                                      first
                                      > charge you will still be disordered during the breakthrough.
                                      >
                                      > Regards
                                      > Tim
                                      >
                                      > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Lawrence"
                                      > <lawrence50ra@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Bill,
                                      > >
                                      > > On my original reply I included the the page reference where
                                      the
                                      > > information is included. The cavalry are disordered at the end
                                      of
                                      > > the first charge (melee) therefore disordered when calculating
                                      > > the 'Breakthrough' Bayonet and Sabre melee.
                                      > >
                                      > > Page 54, column 2, 3rd paragraph, sentence starting "Disorders
                                      > from
                                      > > the initial round of melee combat do apply to any units
                                      involved
                                      > in
                                      > > this second round."
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards, Richard
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "billrun101"
                                      > > <Bill.run@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hi
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied to my questions last
                                      > week.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > We seem to have pretty much a consensus on casualties after a
                                      > > bayonet
                                      > > > and sabre, but not on the issue of whether or not cavalry
                                      become
                                      > > > disordered before they carry out a breakthrough charge. Does
                                      > anyone
                                      > > > have any further thoughts on this issue?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Bill
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Jan W. S. Spoor
                                      ... Not sure where the lack of clarity lies. ... Nowhere in the rules does it say that cavalry are disordered *by* the initial charge or countercharge (unless
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                        Richard Lawrence wrote:
                                        > Tim and Bill,
                                        >
                                        > I can accept your interpretation and apply it from now on but I still
                                        > do have some doubts about clarity. Maybe in this case I am just
                                        > reading a negative result and you a positive one.

                                        Not sure where the lack of clarity lies.

                                        > The statement on page 51, 3rd bullet point, states ".....,
                                        > countercharging cavalry becomes disordered at the end of Bayonet &
                                        > Sabre Phase (ie, both initial and Breakthrough charges) .......... I
                                        > think this can be interpreted in two ways (language is brilliant).
                                        > The first as Tim has identified and Bill has confirmed or they are
                                        > disordered in both the initial charge and breakthrough (no additional
                                        > effect)

                                        Nowhere in the rules does it say that cavalry are disordered *by* the
                                        initial charge or countercharge (unless it is a combat result). It says
                                        they are disordered at the *end* of the B&S Phase if they have charged (or
                                        countercharged) during the phase. Initial charges and breakthroughs are
                                        not separate phases; they are all part of the B&S Phase.

                                        > but countercharging cavalry in the breakthrough phase are
                                        > also disordered whether victorious or not.

                                        Note that charging (as well as countercharging) cavalry are disordered
                                        whether victorious or not.

                                        Now, cavalry could be already disordered *before* they charge (it's risky,
                                        but possible, to do) or countercharge. But that's a whole separate issue.

                                        > As stated before it is probably me just over reading the situation.
                                        > Also, all the results of B&S are applied from the initial round
                                        > before any breakthrough charges were recalculated.

                                        All *combat* results are applied, yes. (Disorder from charging is not a
                                        combat result, since it does not come from the B&S table.)

                                        After all, all initial charges have to be resolved before any
                                        breakthroughs can be resolved, so all results would have to be applied.
                                      • Richard Lawrence
                                        Jan, Thanks, that cleared up any doubts, not sure why I thought cavalry were disordered during initial/only combat. Regards Richard ... still ... charges)
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                          Jan,

                                          Thanks, that cleared up any doubts, not sure why I thought cavalry
                                          were disordered during initial/only combat.

                                          Regards
                                          Richard

                                          --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Jan W. S. Spoor"
                                          <jan.spoor@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Richard Lawrence wrote:
                                          > > Tim and Bill,
                                          > >
                                          > > I can accept your interpretation and apply it from now on but I
                                          still
                                          > > do have some doubts about clarity. Maybe in this case I am just
                                          > > reading a negative result and you a positive one.
                                          >
                                          > Not sure where the lack of clarity lies.
                                          >
                                          > > The statement on page 51, 3rd bullet point, states ".....,
                                          > > countercharging cavalry becomes disordered at the end of Bayonet &
                                          > > Sabre Phase (ie, both initial and Breakthrough
                                          charges) .......... I
                                          > > think this can be interpreted in two ways (language is brilliant).
                                          > > The first as Tim has identified and Bill has confirmed or they are
                                          > > disordered in both the initial charge and breakthrough (no
                                          additional
                                          > > effect)
                                          >
                                          > Nowhere in the rules does it say that cavalry are disordered *by*
                                          the
                                          > initial charge or countercharge (unless it is a combat result). It
                                          says
                                          > they are disordered at the *end* of the B&S Phase if they have
                                          charged (or
                                          > countercharged) during the phase. Initial charges and breakthroughs
                                          are
                                          > not separate phases; they are all part of the B&S Phase.
                                          >
                                          > > but countercharging cavalry in the breakthrough phase are
                                          > > also disordered whether victorious or not.
                                          >
                                          > Note that charging (as well as countercharging) cavalry are
                                          disordered
                                          > whether victorious or not.
                                          >
                                          > Now, cavalry could be already disordered *before* they charge (it's
                                          risky,
                                          > but possible, to do) or countercharge. But that's a whole separate
                                          issue.
                                          >
                                          > > As stated before it is probably me just over reading the
                                          situation.
                                          > > Also, all the results of B&S are applied from the initial round
                                          > > before any breakthrough charges were recalculated.
                                          >
                                          > All *combat* results are applied, yes. (Disorder from charging is
                                          not a
                                          > combat result, since it does not come from the B&S table.)
                                          >
                                          > After all, all initial charges have to be resolved before any
                                          > breakthroughs can be resolved, so all results would have to be
                                          applied.
                                          >
                                        • Jan W. S. Spoor
                                          ... Glad to help! :-) For a fairly simple set of rules, there are a few issues that can be complicated without a careful reading. Our group frequently finds a
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                            Richard Lawrence wrote:
                                            > Jan,
                                            >
                                            > Thanks, that cleared up any doubts, not sure why I thought cavalry
                                            > were disordered during initial/only combat.

                                            Glad to help! :-) For a fairly simple set of rules, there are a few issues
                                            that can be complicated without a careful reading. Our group frequently
                                            finds a little nuance here or there that we've been playing wrong.

                                            Jan
                                          • billrun101
                                            And that s my thoughts clarified too now, thanks again everyone! Now I am armed with the ammunition I need to convince the others!! Bill
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                              And that's my thoughts clarified too now, thanks again everyone!

                                              Now I am armed with the ammunition I need to convince the others!!

                                              Bill

                                              --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Lawrence"
                                              <lawrence50ra@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Jan,
                                              >
                                              > Thanks, that cleared up any doubts, not sure why I thought cavalry
                                              > were disordered during initial/only combat.
                                              >
                                              > Regards
                                              > Richard
                                              >
                                              > --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, "Jan W. S. Spoor"
                                              > <jan.spoor@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Richard Lawrence wrote:
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