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SV: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards

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  • Jesper Asmussen
    Hi, Bunko has put forward a good idea here, I am ”forced” to read the British version on the 100 day campaign because 1) the only foreign language I can
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 1, 2006
      Hi,

      Bunko has put forward a good idea here, I am ”forced” to read the
      British version on the 100 day campaign because 1) the only foreign
      language I can read is English, I can read German too, 2) I have better
      access to British books than any other nations book.

      So with this in mind what books would the participating Nationalities in
      the 100 day campaign suggest we read to get their nationalistic view?

      Preferably in English or German (could possibly get through French
      too):-)

      Cheers

      Jesper Asmussen
      Denmark

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Bouko de
      Groot
      Sendt: 1. september 2006 02:55
      Til: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards

      Hi Michael,

      No apologies needed. To me it's all about getting the atmosphere right,
      by using the historically correct names and words. Otherwise why not
      call Jagers Psiloi, Dragoons Mobile Infantry and Cuirassiers Companions?
      Of course it's OK to name units after the province they're from: in The
      Netherlands that was common as well. But it's inaccurate to name units
      after countries that didn't exist yet. Although that will make for an
      interesting Russian 1812-list.
      Besides, up to that time 'Dutch' referred to people speaking Dutch ...
      for many in those days it didn't matter if you were from Flanders,
      Holland, Gelderland or Westphalen: you were all 'Dutch'.

      My conclusions are not bald, just open any book that has decent Dutch
      sources and you will read what others have already said in earlier
      mails. Even better, read the Dutch books!
      What still amazes me is how / why the ANL - Anti Netherlands League =80)

      - try to keep up such a strong argument ... face it: the earth is NOT
      flat, we DID land on the moon and The Netherland's troops at Waterloo
      were NOT unmotivated, brittle, pro-French push overs.

      People that do research by only reading Siborne's or reading those
      rehash what he said (some even manage to get published by Osprey) have a

      very biased picture of what went on. No problem with that: we are
      war-gaming after all, so in the end you should put on the table what
      makes you most happy. I forgot where I read it but often "a good game is

      one where the result fits the bias of the gamers." There must even be
      gamers that paint up frogs for French and limes for Brits and if that
      makes them happy then why not?

      Btw, I was referring to the beard of the joke.

      Bouko

      > Posted by: Montemaran@toad. <mailto:Montemaran%40toad.net> net
      > Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:10 am (PST)
      >
      > Bouko
      > I chose to use the term Dutch-Belgian, abbreviated to D-B, to describe
      > those troops which many histories in English, and games, and rules,
      > describe as, well, "Dutch-Belgian." I apologize if that shows
      > inadequate sensitivity to the demarcations now extant in the Low
      > Countries, but does not seem to me to be especially unkind or
      > dismissive in light of the current status of scholarship. I am very
      > sure that many Belgians would demand division into Walloon or Flanders
      > troops, and the Dutch likewise, in the same way that many Americans or
      > Canadians identify more with their state than the national polity.
      >
      > If you think I'm wrong about my conclusions, then explain to me (us)
      > why this is so. Bald conclusions do not suffice. Otherwise, I'll have
      > to judge your statements to be on the same level as those regarding my
      > beard -- a beard which I do not have.
      >
      > Michael Montemarano

      >> I suppose D-B does not stand for Dutch-Belgian then? If it does, the
      >> statement is as wrong as throwing an 11 with a D10. Must then be a
      >> joke (with a veeery long beard) or plain ignorance ...
      >> Btw, the correct term for the nationality of those units is "The
      >> Netherlands". If you really want to make a distinction between north
      >> and south (but why?), then use "North -" and "South Netherlands".
      >>
      >> Bouko



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • hmgs1@hmgs.org
      Hofschrorer (sic?) is good for the Prussians. Yes, he is an apologist, but it does balance other views. Also see Lord Chalfront s Waterloo: Battle of three
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 1, 2006
        Hofschrorer (sic?) is good for the Prussians. Yes, he is an apologist, but it does balance other views. Also see Lord Chalfront's Waterloo: Battle of three Armies as it has each chapter in triplicate - one German, one French and one British historian.

        BTW guys, behave yourselves :). I'll be out of touch the next day or two as my wife had to go into the hospital and is now awaiting gall bladder surgery.

        Hope to be back in cyberspace soon.

        Regards, Bill Gray

        >
        > From: "Jesper Asmussen" <ja-gqg@...>
        > Date: 2006/09/01 Fri AM 04:01:47 EDT
        > To: <NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: SV: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > Bunko has put forward a good idea here, I am ”forced” to read the
        > British version on the 100 day campaign because 1) the only foreign
        > language I can read is English, I can read German too, 2) I have better
        > access to British books than any other nations book.
        >
        > So with this in mind what books would the participating Nationalities in
        > the 100 day campaign suggest we read to get their nationalistic view?
        >
        > Preferably in English or German (could possibly get through French
        > too):-)
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        > Jesper Asmussen
        > Denmark
        >
        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        > Fra: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Bouko de
        > Groot
        > Sendt: 1. september 2006 02:55
        > Til: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
        > Emne: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards
        >
        > Hi Michael,
        >
        > No apologies needed. To me it's all about getting the atmosphere right,
        > by using the historically correct names and words. Otherwise why not
        > call Jagers Psiloi, Dragoons Mobile Infantry and Cuirassiers Companions?
        > Of course it's OK to name units after the province they're from: in The
        > Netherlands that was common as well. But it's inaccurate to name units
        > after countries that didn't exist yet. Although that will make for an
        > interesting Russian 1812-list.
        > Besides, up to that time 'Dutch' referred to people speaking Dutch ...
        > for many in those days it didn't matter if you were from Flanders,
        > Holland, Gelderland or Westphalen: you were all 'Dutch'.
        >
        > My conclusions are not bald, just open any book that has decent Dutch
        > sources and you will read what others have already said in earlier
        > mails. Even better, read the Dutch books!
        > What still amazes me is how / why the ANL - Anti Netherlands League =80)
        >
        > - try to keep up such a strong argument ... face it: the earth is NOT
        > flat, we DID land on the moon and The Netherland's troops at Waterloo
        > were NOT unmotivated, brittle, pro-French push overs.
        >
        > People that do research by only reading Siborne's or reading those
        > rehash what he said (some even manage to get published by Osprey) have a
        >
        > very biased picture of what went on. No problem with that: we are
        > war-gaming after all, so in the end you should put on the table what
        > makes you most happy. I forgot where I read it but often "a good game is
        >
        > one where the result fits the bias of the gamers." There must even be
        > gamers that paint up frogs for French and limes for Brits and if that
        > makes them happy then why not?
        >
        > Btw, I was referring to the beard of the joke.
        >
        > Bouko
        >
        > > Posted by: Montemaran@toad. <mailto:Montemaran%40toad.net> net
        > > Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:10 am (PST)
        > >
        > > Bouko
        > > I chose to use the term Dutch-Belgian, abbreviated to D-B, to describe
        > > those troops which many histories in English, and games, and rules,
        > > describe as, well, "Dutch-Belgian." I apologize if that shows
        > > inadequate sensitivity to the demarcations now extant in the Low
        > > Countries, but does not seem to me to be especially unkind or
        > > dismissive in light of the current status of scholarship. I am very
        > > sure that many Belgians would demand division into Walloon or Flanders
        > > troops, and the Dutch likewise, in the same way that many Americans or
        > > Canadians identify more with their state than the national polity.
        > >
        > > If you think I'm wrong about my conclusions, then explain to me (us)
        > > why this is so. Bald conclusions do not suffice. Otherwise, I'll have
        > > to judge your statements to be on the same level as those regarding my
        > > beard -- a beard which I do not have.
        > >
        > > Michael Montemarano
        >
        > >> I suppose D-B does not stand for Dutch-Belgian then? If it does, the
        > >> statement is as wrong as throwing an 11 with a D10. Must then be a
        > >> joke (with a veeery long beard) or plain ignorance ...
        > >> Btw, the correct term for the nationality of those units is "The
        > >> Netherlands". If you really want to make a distinction between north
        > >> and south (but why?), then use "North -" and "South Netherlands".
        > >>
        > >> Bouko
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
      • markandkelibrown
        Bill, I will pray for a successful surgery and recovery. Mark ... From: To: ;
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 1, 2006
          Bill, I will pray for a successful surgery and recovery.
          Mark
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <hmgs1@...>
          To: <NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com>;
          <NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:52 AM
          Subject: Re: SV: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards


          > Hofschrorer (sic?) is good for the Prussians. Yes, he is an apologist, but
          > it does balance other views. Also see Lord Chalfront's Waterloo: Battle of
          > three Armies as it has each chapter in triplicate - one German, one French
          > and one British historian.
          >
          > BTW guys, behave yourselves :). I'll be out of touch the next day or two
          > as my wife had to go into the hospital and is now awaiting gall bladder
          > surgery.
          >
          > Hope to be back in cyberspace soon.
          >
          > Regards, Bill Gray
          >
          >>
          >> From: "Jesper Asmussen" <ja-gqg@...>
          >> Date: 2006/09/01 Fri AM 04:01:47 EDT
          >> To: <NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Subject: SV: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards
          >>
          >> Hi,
          >>
          >> Bunko has put forward a good idea here, I am "forced" to read the
          >> British version on the 100 day campaign because 1) the only foreign
          >> language I can read is English, I can read German too, 2) I have better
          >> access to British books than any other nations book.
          >>
          >> So with this in mind what books would the participating Nationalities in
          >> the 100 day campaign suggest we read to get their nationalistic view?
          >>
          >> Preferably in English or German (could possibly get through French
          >> too):-)
          >>
          >> Cheers
          >>
          >> Jesper Asmussen
          >> Denmark
          >>
          >> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          >> Fra: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
          >> [mailto:NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Bouko de
          >> Groot
          >> Sendt: 1. september 2006 02:55
          >> Til: NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com
          >> Emne: [NapoleonicFireandFury] Re: canards
          >>
          >> Hi Michael,
          >>
          >> No apologies needed. To me it's all about getting the atmosphere right,
          >> by using the historically correct names and words. Otherwise why not
          >> call Jagers Psiloi, Dragoons Mobile Infantry and Cuirassiers Companions?
          >> Of course it's OK to name units after the province they're from: in The
          >> Netherlands that was common as well. But it's inaccurate to name units
          >> after countries that didn't exist yet. Although that will make for an
          >> interesting Russian 1812-list.
          >> Besides, up to that time 'Dutch' referred to people speaking Dutch ...
          >> for many in those days it didn't matter if you were from Flanders,
          >> Holland, Gelderland or Westphalen: you were all 'Dutch'.
          >>
          >> My conclusions are not bald, just open any book that has decent Dutch
          >> sources and you will read what others have already said in earlier
          >> mails. Even better, read the Dutch books!
          >> What still amazes me is how / why the ANL - Anti Netherlands League =80)
          >>
          >> - try to keep up such a strong argument ... face it: the earth is NOT
          >> flat, we DID land on the moon and The Netherland's troops at Waterloo
          >> were NOT unmotivated, brittle, pro-French push overs.
          >>
          >> People that do research by only reading Siborne's or reading those
          >> rehash what he said (some even manage to get published by Osprey) have a
          >>
          >> very biased picture of what went on. No problem with that: we are
          >> war-gaming after all, so in the end you should put on the table what
          >> makes you most happy. I forgot where I read it but often "a good game is
          >>
          >> one where the result fits the bias of the gamers." There must even be
          >> gamers that paint up frogs for French and limes for Brits and if that
          >> makes them happy then why not?
          >>
          >> Btw, I was referring to the beard of the joke.
          >>
          >> Bouko
          >>
          >> > Posted by: Montemaran@toad. <mailto:Montemaran%40toad.net> net
          >> > Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:10 am (PST)
          >> >
          >> > Bouko
          >> > I chose to use the term Dutch-Belgian, abbreviated to D-B, to describe
          >> > those troops which many histories in English, and games, and rules,
          >> > describe as, well, "Dutch-Belgian." I apologize if that shows
          >> > inadequate sensitivity to the demarcations now extant in the Low
          >> > Countries, but does not seem to me to be especially unkind or
          >> > dismissive in light of the current status of scholarship. I am very
          >> > sure that many Belgians would demand division into Walloon or Flanders
          >> > troops, and the Dutch likewise, in the same way that many Americans or
          >> > Canadians identify more with their state than the national polity.
          >> >
          >> > If you think I'm wrong about my conclusions, then explain to me (us)
          >> > why this is so. Bald conclusions do not suffice. Otherwise, I'll have
          >> > to judge your statements to be on the same level as those regarding my
          >> > beard -- a beard which I do not have.
          >> >
          >> > Michael Montemarano
          >>
          >> >> I suppose D-B does not stand for Dutch-Belgian then? If it does, the
          >> >> statement is as wrong as throwing an 11 with a D10. Must then be a
          >> >> joke (with a veeery long beard) or plain ignorance ...
          >> >> Btw, the correct term for the nationality of those units is "The
          >> >> Netherlands". If you really want to make a distinction between north
          >> >> and south (but why?), then use "North -" and "South Netherlands".
          >> >>
          >> >> Bouko
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > Also visit the new, official Age of Eagles Website at
          > http://ageofeagles.com!
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Scott Jeske
          all, the the light of the wargaming comment; my opponent wants me to change the DB to Elite for all the havoc they have caused him! He feels their
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 1, 2006
            all, the the light of the wargaming comment; my opponent wants me to
            change the DB to Elite for all the havoc they have caused him! He
            feels their performanace is par excellence!

            The highlanders are another story!

            Something about attacking vs defending uphill in woods MAY have
            something to do with it.

            Madcam.

            --- In NapoleonicFireandFury@yahoogroups.com, Bouko de Groot
            <bouko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Michael,
            >
            > No apologies needed. To me it's all about getting the atmosphere
            right,
            > by using the historically correct names and words. Otherwise why
            not
            > call Jagers Psiloi, Dragoons Mobile Infantry and Cuirassiers
            Companions?
            > Of course it's OK to name units after the province they're from:
            in The
            > Netherlands that was common as well. But it's inaccurate to name
            units
            > after countries that didn't exist yet. Although that will make for
            an
            > interesting Russian 1812-list.
            > Besides, up to that time 'Dutch' referred to people speaking
            Dutch ...
            > for many in those days it didn't matter if you were from Flanders,
            > Holland, Gelderland or Westphalen: you were all 'Dutch'.
            >
            > My conclusions are not bald, just open any book that has decent
            Dutch
            > sources and you will read what others have already said in earlier
            > mails. Even better, read the Dutch books!
            > What still amazes me is how / why the ANL - Anti Netherlands
            League =80)
            > - try to keep up such a strong argument ... face it: the earth is
            NOT
            > flat, we DID land on the moon and The Netherland's troops at
            Waterloo
            > were NOT unmotivated, brittle, pro-French push overs.
            >
            > People that do research by only reading Siborne's or reading those
            > rehash what he said (some even manage to get published by Osprey)
            have a
            > very biased picture of what went on. No problem with that: we are
            > war-gaming after all, so in the end you should put on the table
            what
            > makes you most happy. I forgot where I read it but often "a good
            game is
            > one where the result fits the bias of the gamers." There must even
            be
            > gamers that paint up frogs for French and limes for Brits and if
            that
            > makes them happy then why not?
            >
            > Btw, I was referring to the beard of the joke.
            >
            > Bouko
            >
            > > Posted by: Montemaran@...
            > > Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:10 am (PST)
            > >
            > > Bouko
            > > I chose to use the term Dutch-Belgian, abbreviated to D-B, to
            describe
            > > those troops which many histories in English, and games, and
            rules,
            > > describe as, well, "Dutch-Belgian." I apologize if that shows
            > > inadequate sensitivity to the demarcations now extant in the Low
            > > Countries, but does not seem to me to be especially unkind or
            > > dismissive in light of the current status of scholarship. I am
            very
            > > sure that many Belgians would demand division into Walloon or
            Flanders
            > > troops, and the Dutch likewise, in the same way that many
            Americans or
            > > Canadians identify more with their state than the national
            polity.
            > >
            > > If you think I'm wrong about my conclusions, then explain to me
            (us)
            > > why this is so. Bald conclusions do not suffice. Otherwise,
            I'll have
            > > to judge your statements to be on the same level as those
            regarding my
            > > beard -- a beard which I do not have.
            > >
            > > Michael Montemarano
            >
            > >> I suppose D-B does not stand for Dutch-Belgian then? If it
            does, the
            > >> statement is as wrong as throwing an 11 with a D10. Must then
            be a
            > >> joke (with a veeery long beard) or plain ignorance ...
            > >> Btw, the correct term for the nationality of those units
            is "The
            > >> Netherlands". If you really want to make a distinction between
            north
            > >> and south (but why?), then use "North -" and "South
            Netherlands".
            > >>
            > >> Bouko
            >
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