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Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance

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  • maskedmarvelswat
    I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5. I own both a Xootr Mg ($220)
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 23, 2010
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      I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.

      I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.

      I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.

      I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.

      After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.

      I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
      http://www.shawguides.com/pages/ks.html
      Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.

      It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.

      For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.

      My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.

      John
    • JV
      maskedmarvelswat man - change your bearings and examine your choices of lubrication. Just a few grains of sand or rust behind the shields can have a dramatic
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 23, 2010
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        maskedmarvelswat man -

        change your bearings and examine your choices of lubrication. Just a few grains of sand or rust behind the shields can have a dramatic effect on rolling resistance.

        Also, if you're going to be all OCD about it, document the durometer of the wheels in all your test vehicles, and if the shape/profile/contact patch of the wheels is significantly different you owe new wheels to test vehicles (at what durometer?)


        On The Other Hand, I don't even care. FOR ME, the xootr looks better, and if I'm getting a better workout, my calves and cardiopulmonary systems benefit more, all the better. Xootr is more of a gadgety conversation piece, which pays me other benefits outside of efficiency. Besides it's really not that hilly where I ride.


        take care and happy scootering ~



        --- On Tue, 3/23/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:

        > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
        > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
      • maskedmarvelswat
        Thanks for your comment. I did try changing the bearings and wheels (as mentioned in my post) and that had no effect. The bearings are sealed and Xootr advices
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 23, 2010
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          Thanks for your comment. I did try changing the bearings and wheels (as mentioned in my post) and that had no effect. The bearings are sealed and Xootr advices against trying to lubricate the wheels or bearings in any way. I would prefer to call myself a kick scooter enthusiast rather than someone who's "all OCD about it", but I admit that there may be a fine line between the two. I understand your point about getting a better workout and that the Xootr is mainly a conversation piece to you. But to me, a product that is not functioning well is ugly, no matter how it looks. Ferdinand Porsche said, "Design is not form or function alone, but rather an aesthetic synthesis of the two". Whether it's hilly or not where you ride doesn't matter in this regard. Rolling resistance will slow you down on even ground too.

          -John

          --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, JV <JV711@...> wrote:
          >
          > maskedmarvelswat man -
          >
          > change your bearings and examine your choices of lubrication. Just a few grains of sand or rust behind the shields can have a dramatic effect on rolling resistance.
          >
          > Also, if you're going to be all OCD about it, document the durometer of the wheels in all your test vehicles, and if the shape/profile/contact patch of the wheels is significantly different you owe new wheels to test vehicles (at what durometer?)
          >
          >
          > On The Other Hand, I don't even care. FOR ME, the xootr looks better, and if I'm getting a better workout, my calves and cardiopulmonary systems benefit more, all the better. Xootr is more of a gadgety conversation piece, which pays me other benefits outside of efficiency. Besides it's really not that hilly where I ride.
          >
          >
          > take care and happy scootering ~
          >
          >
          >
          > --- On Tue, 3/23/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:
          >
          > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
          > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
          >
        • Edward W
          John, Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you re asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 23, 2010
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            John,

            Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.

            Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.

            I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.

            But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.

            Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.

            All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.

            Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.

            I say enjoy both machines for what they are.

            Edward Wong III
            Orlando, FL
            Viza Kikit Air




            --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:
            >
            > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
            >
            > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
            >
            > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
            >
            > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
            >
            > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
            >
            > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
            > http://www.shawguides.com/pages/ks.html
            > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
            >
            > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
            >
            > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
            >
            > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
            >
            > John
            >
          • dorlene
            This discussion is interesting because it illustrates that we each have different priorities, whether it be speed, design, smooth ride, etc., and perhaps it s
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 23, 2010
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              This discussion is interesting because it illustrates that we each have different priorities, whether it be speed, design, smooth ride, etc., and perhaps it's unrealistic to expect one scooter to meet every rider's needs. For me, lightness and foldability are more important than speed or elegant design, but it's a trade-off. When I rode a Xootr, I was often stopped by people who wanted to know about it. I enjoyed these conversations and being a scooter booster. Since I've been using the A5 no one stops me and I miss that. As kick scooters become more popular maybe the people at Xootr or Razor or another company will come up with a scooter that comes closer to the ideal.

              John, My "relative efficiency" comparison is flawed and will be corrected. It was conducted on flat ground and although I repeated it several times, the same distance and number of kicks each time, it would have been more accurate if I rolled downhill without kicking at all. I will do that and change the term "relative efficiency" to "rolling resistance".
            • maskedmarvelswat
              Edward, Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 24, 2010
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                Edward,

                Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009), so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.

                Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb.wharton.upenn.edu/people/faculty.cfm?id=13

                I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.

                John

                --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "Edward W" <edwong3@...> wrote:
                >

                > John,
                >
                > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                >
                > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                >
                > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                >
                > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                >
                > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                >
                > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                >
                > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                >
                > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                >
                > Edward Wong III
                > Orlando, FL
                > Viza Kikit Air
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                > >
                > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                > >
                > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                > >
                > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                > >
                > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                > >
                > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                > > http://www.shawguides.com/pages/ks.html
                > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                > >
                > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                > >
                > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                > >
                > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                > >
                > > John
                > >
                >
              • John Margiotta
                I think you re over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr s over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 24, 2010
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                  I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY

                  --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:


                  From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                  Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                  To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM


                   



                  Edward,

                  Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.

                  Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13

                  I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.

                  John

                  --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@... > wrote:
                  >

                  > John,
                  >
                  > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                  >
                  > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                  >
                  > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                  >
                  > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                  >
                  > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                  >
                  > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                  >
                  > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                  >
                  > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                  >
                  > Edward Wong III
                  > Orlando, FL
                  > Viza Kikit Air
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                  > >
                  > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                  > >
                  > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                  > >
                  > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                  > >
                  > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                  > >
                  > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                  > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html
                  > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                  > >
                  > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                  > >
                  > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                  > >
                  > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                  > >
                  > > John
                  > >
                  >











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Margiotta
                  Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 24, 2010
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                    Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor.  I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!  

                    --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:


                    From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...>
                    Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                    To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM






                    I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY

                    --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:


                    From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                    Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                    To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM


                     



                    Edward,

                    Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.

                    Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13

                    I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.

                    John

                    --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@... > wrote:
                    >

                    > John,
                    >
                    > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                    >
                    > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                    >
                    > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                    >
                    > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                    >
                    > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                    >
                    > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                    >
                    > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                    >
                    > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                    >
                    > Edward Wong III
                    > Orlando, FL
                    > Viza Kikit Air
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                    > >
                    > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                    > >
                    > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                    > >
                    > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                    > >
                    > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                    > >
                    > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                    > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html
                    > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                    > >
                    > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                    > >
                    > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                    > >
                    > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                    > >
                    > > John
                    > >
                    >












                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • maskedmarvelswat
                    Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn t say the Xootr went 45% farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88%
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 24, 2010
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                      Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45% farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is favorable to his product):

                      "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5 wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47 meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on a smooth concrete floor)."

                      Whether or not you normally care about speed and rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge difference, particularly when compared with my results, which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I should just send them to him.

                      You are correct about the front braking system on the Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no effect on rolling resistance.

                      I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best customer service I've ever encountered in my life.

                      John


                      --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor.  I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!  
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                      > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                      > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                      > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Edward,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                      >
                      > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                      >
                      > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                      > >
                      >
                      > > John,
                      > >
                      > > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                      > >
                      > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                      > >
                      > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                      > >
                      > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                      > >
                      > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                      > >
                      > > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                      > >
                      > > Edward Wong III
                      > > Orlando, FL
                      > > Viza Kikit Air
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                      > > >
                      > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                      > > >
                      > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                      > > >
                      > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                      > > >
                      > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                      > > >
                      > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                      > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html
                      > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                      > > >
                      > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                      > > >
                      > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                      > > >
                      > > > John
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • dorlene
                      Thank you, John. :)
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 24, 2010
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                        Thank you, John. :)

                        --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor. I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!
                      • John Margiotta
                        Not sure where you got that I don t normally care about speed or rolling resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess what I m saying is that I don t
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 24, 2010
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                          Not sure where you got that I don't normally care about speed or rolling resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his alleged test results.  I rode Xootr brand scooters for two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they were, if anything, slightly slower.

                          --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:


                          From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                          Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                          To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM


                           



                          Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45% farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is favorable to his product):

                          "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5 wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47 meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on a smooth concrete floor)."

                          Whether or not you normally care about speed and rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge difference, particularly when compared with my results, which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I should just send them to him.

                          You are correct about the front braking system on the Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no effect on rolling resistance.

                          I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best customer service I've ever encountered in my life.

                          John

                          --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor.  I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!  
                          >
                          > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                          > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                          > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY
                          >
                          > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...>
                          > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                          > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Edward,
                          >
                          > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                          >
                          > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                          >
                          > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                          > >
                          >
                          > > John,
                          > >
                          > > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                          > >
                          > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                          > >
                          > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                          > >
                          > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                          > >
                          > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                          > >
                          > > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                          > >
                          > > Edward Wong III
                          > > Orlando, FL
                          > > Viza Kikit Air
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                          > > >
                          > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                          > > >
                          > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                          > > >
                          > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                          > > >
                          > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                          > > >
                          > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                          > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html
                          > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                          > > >
                          > > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                          > > >
                          > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                          > > >
                          > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                          > > >
                          > > > John
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael Y. Knackerson
                          Hey all, I ve resisted jumping in here until I have had a chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5 s and many more Xootrs and as an avid user of both
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 25, 2010
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                            Hey all,

                            I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably contribute some value added comments to this message thread.

                            There is a fundamental difference between free wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before you do this type of testing, one should test the free wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to spin freely.  Then, once you step on either platform and exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a loaded wheeling condition.

                            To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.  Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and average your results.  Then repeat this test on the other wheel.  You may be startled with the results!

                            When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the following AVERAGED times:

                            Razor A5
                            Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal!)
                            Rear: 45 seconds

                            Xootr Roma
                            Front: 10 seconds
                            Rear: 11 seconds

                            Xootr Street
                            Front: 20 seconds
                            Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)

                            Xootr MG
                            Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                            Rear: 21 seconds

                            Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                            Front: 45 seconds
                            Rear 27 seconds

                            It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in theory should go further over time. This lower rotational resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for every rotation.

                            Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle bolt, I got the following times:

                            1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                            1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                            With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the time was 25 seconds.

                            The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled, specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing tests in my next email.  

                            It would really be nice if others did their own free wheeling timed tests and reported their findings.  The more data the better!  You don't need anything but a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat's case, he might want to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.

                            My final observation - It seems to me that there was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty, the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime, and that would slow them down. However, when the front brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other way around.

                            That's it for now,

                            Mikey


                            --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:

                            From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...>
                            Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                            To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
















                             









                            Not sure where you got that I don't normally care about speed or rolling resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his alleged test results.  I rode Xootr brand scooters for two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they were, if anything, slightly slower.



                            --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:



                            From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>

                            Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance

                            To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                            Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM



                             



                            Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45% farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is favorable to his product):



                            "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5 wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47 meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on a smooth concrete floor)."



                            Whether or not you normally care about speed and rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge difference, particularly when compared with my results, which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I should just send them to him.



                            You are correct about the front braking system on the Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no effect on rolling resistance.



                            I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best customer service I've ever encountered in my life.



                            John



                            --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:

                            >

                            > Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor.  I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!  

                            >

                            > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:

                            >

                            >

                            > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>

                            > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance

                            > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                            > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY

                            >

                            > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:

                            >

                            >

                            > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...>

                            > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance

                            > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                            > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM

                            >

                            >

                            >  

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Edward,

                            >

                            > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.

                            >

                            > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13

                            >

                            > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.

                            >

                            > John

                            >

                            > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@ > wrote:

                            > >

                            >

                            > > John,

                            > >

                            > > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.

                            > >

                            > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.

                            > >

                            > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.

                            > >

                            > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.

                            > >

                            > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.

                            > >

                            > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.

                            > >

                            > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.

                            > >

                            > > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.

                            > >

                            > > Edward Wong III

                            > > Orlando, FL

                            > > Viza Kikit Air

                            > >

                            > >

                            > >

                            > >

                            > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:

                            > > >

                            > > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.

                            > > >

                            > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.

                            > > >

                            > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.

                            > > >

                            > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.

                            > > >

                            > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.

                            > > >

                            > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"

                            > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html

                            > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.

                            > > >

                            > > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.

                            > > >

                            > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.

                            > > >

                            > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.

                            > > >

                            > > > John

                            > > >

                            > >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • maskedmarvelswat
                            Mikey, Thanks very much for your comment. I ve been wondering about these same general issues. Particularly the front wheel of the Xootr is tricky to install
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 25, 2010
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                              Mikey,

                              Thanks very much for your comment. I've been wondering about these same general issues. Particularly the front wheel of the Xootr is tricky to install correctly, because you have to press on the fork hard in order to get the axle through both holes. I'm fairly certain that I have done it right, but I'm not 100% confident. It seems highly unlikely that so many people would have something wrong with the wheel installation on their Xootr though (Dorlene, John Margiotta, Edward W, myself). At least in my case, my Xootr was slow before I messed with the wheels, so one would have to assume that my Xootr was assembled wrong at the factory, which seems a stretch.

                              I did test the spinning time of my Xootr Mg wheels previously, and it was 20 seconds at the front and 25 seconds in the back. In theory, if your wheels are installed correctly, it shouldn't matter how tight the axle bolts are. There should be a washer one each side of the wheel (between the fork and the wheel), and the washer should be touching only the ball bearing (which does not spin) rather than the wheel itself. Make sure you have the washers in place. If you do, is it possible that your front brake pad is rubbing on the wheel when the axle bolt is tight? Make sure that the bolt holding the brake pad is tight, because that bolt affects the angle of the fork as well.

                              Your reported spinning times for the A5 wheels are similar to what I have observed. Since then, I have replaced the ball bearings on my A5 with Bones Reds Precision bearings (thanks to Wally Viray for the idea). Now the wheels on my A5 spin for several minutes. I haven't had the patience to time them, but someone wrote online that they spin over 5 minutes, which sounds correct. But the spinning time is not necessarily directly related to rolling resistance under load. I observed only a modest increase in rolling distance (7%) with the Bones Reds bearings on the A5. These bearings don't fit in the Xootr wheels directly because they are too small. I've been trying to make them fit with custom metal sleeves on the bearings, but so far I haven't been successful.

                              John

                              --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hey all,
                              >
                              > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably contribute some value added comments to this message thread.
                              >
                              > There is a fundamental difference between free wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before you do this type of testing, one should test the free wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to spin freely.  Then, once you step on either platform and exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a loaded wheeling condition.
                              >
                              > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.  Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and average your results.  Then repeat this test on the other wheel.  You may be startled with the results!
                              >
                              > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the following AVERAGED times:
                              >
                              > Razor A5
                              > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal!)
                              > Rear: 45 seconds
                              >
                              > Xootr Roma
                              > Front: 10 seconds
                              > Rear: 11 seconds
                              >
                              > Xootr Street
                              > Front: 20 seconds
                              > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                              >
                              > Xootr MG
                              > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                              > Rear: 21 seconds
                              >
                              > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                              > Front: 45 seconds
                              > Rear 27 seconds
                              >
                              > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in theory should go further over time. This lower rotational resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for every rotation.
                              >
                              > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle bolt, I got the following times:
                              >
                              > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                              > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                              > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the time was 25 seconds.
                              >
                              > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled, specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing tests in my next email.  
                              >
                              > It would really be nice if others did their own free wheeling timed tests and reported their findings.  The more data the better!  You don't need anything but a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat's case, he might want to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                              >
                              > My final observation - It seems to me that there was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty, the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime, and that would slow them down. However, when the front brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other way around.
                              >
                              > That's it for now,
                              >
                              > Mikey
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                              > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Not sure where you got that I don't normally care about speed or rolling resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his alleged test results.  I rode Xootr brand scooters for two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they were, if anything, slightly slower.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>
                              >
                              > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                              >
                              > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                              >
                              > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45% farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is favorable to his product):
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5 wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47 meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on a smooth concrete floor)."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Whether or not you normally care about speed and rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge difference, particularly when compared with my results, which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I should just send them to him.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > You are correct about the front braking system on the Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no effect on rolling resistance.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > John
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor.  I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!  
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                              >
                              > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                              >
                              > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                              >
                              > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...>
                              >
                              > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                              >
                              > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                              >
                              > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >  
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Edward,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > John
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > John,
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > Edward Wong III
                              >
                              > > > Orlando, FL
                              >
                              > > > Viza Kikit Air
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                              >
                              > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html
                              >
                              > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > > > > John
                              >
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                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                              >
                            • JV
                              ... You re doing it wrong. You might have the wrong size axles + bearings for those wheels, and machining your own sleeves sounds awfully more difficult than
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 25, 2010
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                                --- On Thu, 3/25/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:

                                > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                                >
                                > (7%) with the Bones Reds bearings on the A5. These bearings
                                > don't fit in the Xootr wheels directly because they are too
                                > small. I've been trying to make them fit with custom metal
                                > sleeves on the bearings, but so far I haven't been
                                > successful.


                                You're doing it wrong. You might have the wrong size axles + bearings for those wheels, and machining your own sleeves sounds awfully more difficult than buying the right pre-fabbed part off the shelf. Unless you own a lathe and just like that sort of thing.

                                Did you buy the test-bed xootr used? Maybe the previous owner used a "hop up kit" of different spec?

                                bearings come in 8mm (called 608) and 7mm (called 627).
                                There is also a 688 micro bearing.

                                example of 688 micro bearings:
                                http://www.skates.com/BSB-Abec-5-688-micro-bearings-p/125635.htm

                                example of 7mm Bones Reds:
                                http://www.skates.com/Bones-Reds-bearings-p/bracbr7-16pk.htm

                                example of 8mm Bones Reds:
                                http://www.skates.com/Bones-Reds-skate-bearings-8mm-16-pack-p/bracbr8-16pk.htm

                                And spacers:
                                688 micro spacers:
                                http://www.skates.com/Micro-688-spacers-p/125054.htm

                                608 spacers:
                                http://www.skates.com/Sonic-spacers-p/756395100404.htm

                                non-centering 608 spacers:
                                http://www.skates.com/skate-bearing-spacers-p/rsbs-ns.htm

                                Sorry I don't have a link for 627 spacers.

                                And I recommend a lubricant, such as Bones Speed Cream (only $5):
                                http://www.skates.com/Bones-Speed-Cream-p/bonescrm.htm

                                I have no financial relationship with the website above, just a satisfied customer.

                                Since we talked about the wheel diameter difference between the xootr and A5, we should document the bearing specs too, and use equivalent bearings in each test machine. I had an out-of-round axle spacer which I just replaced, that's why I had that website handy in my bookmarks.


                                JV
                              • maskedmarvelswat
                                JV, I would much rather buy the right part off-the-shelf than try to machine it, but I haven t been able to find the right part. Can you help me to identify
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 25, 2010
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                                  JV,

                                  I would much rather buy the right part off-the-shelf than try to machine it, but I haven't been able to find the right part. Can you help me to identify the right part? The Xootr uses unrated, sealed R8ZZ bearings from McMaster-Carr (info from Xootr) with an outside diameter of 1 1/8 inches = 28.575 mm. These bearings are much larger than any skate bearings that I know of. I would like to replace these original bearings with 8 mm Bones Reds bearings, which have an outside diameter of 22 mm. What kind of bearing sleeve should I buy to make this work? The 8 mm inner diameter is not a problem, because I think either the rear or front axle (I cant't remember which) in the Xootr is 8 mm without the outer axle sleeve, so I can just order a second axle like that from Xootr. My Xootr is all OEM and I'm the first owner. Thanks,

                                  John

                                  --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, JV <JV711@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- On Thu, 3/25/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                                  > >
                                  > > (7%) with the Bones Reds bearings on the A5. These bearings
                                  > > don't fit in the Xootr wheels directly because they are too
                                  > > small. I've been trying to make them fit with custom metal
                                  > > sleeves on the bearings, but so far I haven't been
                                  > > successful.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You're doing it wrong. You might have the wrong size axles + bearings for those wheels, and machining your own sleeves sounds awfully more difficult than buying the right pre-fabbed part off the shelf. Unless you own a lathe and just like that sort of thing.
                                  >
                                  > Did you buy the test-bed xootr used? Maybe the previous owner used a "hop up kit" of different spec?
                                  >
                                  > bearings come in 8mm (called 608) and 7mm (called 627).
                                  > There is also a 688 micro bearing.
                                  >
                                  > example of 688 micro bearings:
                                  > http://www.skates.com/BSB-Abec-5-688-micro-bearings-p/125635.htm
                                  >
                                  > example of 7mm Bones Reds:
                                  > http://www.skates.com/Bones-Reds-bearings-p/bracbr7-16pk.htm
                                  >
                                  > example of 8mm Bones Reds:
                                  > http://www.skates.com/Bones-Reds-skate-bearings-8mm-16-pack-p/bracbr8-16pk.htm
                                  >
                                  > And spacers:
                                  > 688 micro spacers:
                                  > http://www.skates.com/Micro-688-spacers-p/125054.htm
                                  >
                                  > 608 spacers:
                                  > http://www.skates.com/Sonic-spacers-p/756395100404.htm
                                  >
                                  > non-centering 608 spacers:
                                  > http://www.skates.com/skate-bearing-spacers-p/rsbs-ns.htm
                                  >
                                  > Sorry I don't have a link for 627 spacers.
                                  >
                                  > And I recommend a lubricant, such as Bones Speed Cream (only $5):
                                  > http://www.skates.com/Bones-Speed-Cream-p/bonescrm.htm
                                  >
                                  > I have no financial relationship with the website above, just a satisfied customer.
                                  >
                                  > Since we talked about the wheel diameter difference between the xootr and A5, we should document the bearing specs too, and use equivalent bearings in each test machine. I had an out-of-round axle spacer which I just replaced, that's why I had that website handy in my bookmarks.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > JV
                                  >
                                • maskedmarvelswat
                                  JV, you were right about the grains of sand in the bearings. I took the wheels off my Xootr Mg, and when I looked closely, the bearings did have tiny grains of
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 28, 2010
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                                    JV, you were right about the grains of sand in the bearings. I took the wheels off my Xootr Mg, and when I looked closely, the bearings did have tiny grains of sand wedged in the groove just outside the inner ring of the bearings. I almost needed a magnifying glass to see them. I cleaned the sand off the best I could with toothpicks and rubbing alcohol. After cleaning, the free-spinning time of the wheel improved from 12 s to 20 s. I also replaced the other wheel with a brand new wheel that had a free-spinning time of 17 s (vs. 12 s in the old wheel). After all this, I repeated my gravity-powered downhill test. To my disappointment, the rolling distance did not improve. It was still 30 feet (vs. 41 feet with the Razor A5 equipped with Bones Reds bearings).

                                    John

                                    --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, JV <JV711@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > maskedmarvelswat man -
                                    >
                                    > change your bearings and examine your choices of lubrication. Just a few grains of sand or rust behind the shields can have a dramatic effect on rolling resistance.
                                    >
                                    > Also, if you're going to be all OCD about it, document the durometer of the wheels in all your test vehicles, and if the shape/profile/contact patch of the wheels is significantly different you owe new wheels to test vehicles (at what durometer?)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On The Other Hand, I don't even care. FOR ME, the xootr looks better, and if I'm getting a better workout, my calves and cardiopulmonary systems benefit more, all the better. Xootr is more of a gadgety conversation piece, which pays me other benefits outside of efficiency. Besides it's really not that hilly where I ride.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > take care and happy scootering ~
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Tue, 3/23/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                                    > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                    >
                                  • maskedmarvelswat
                                    Mikey, I did the free-spinning test on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts and I didn t see any difference in the free-spinning times.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 28, 2010
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                                      Mikey, I did the free-spinning test on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times. It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which serve the same function. My free-spinning times are currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings) and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the original bearings.)

                                      John

                                      --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hey all,
                                      >
                                      > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably contribute some value added comments to this message thread.
                                      >
                                      > There is a fundamental difference between free wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before you do this type of testing, one should test the free wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to spin freely.  Then, once you step on either platform and exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a loaded wheeling condition.
                                      >
                                      > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.  Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and average your results.  Then repeat this test on the other wheel.  You may be startled with the results!
                                      >
                                      > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the following AVERAGED times:
                                      >
                                      > Razor A5
                                      > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal!)
                                      > Rear: 45 seconds
                                      >
                                      > Xootr Roma
                                      > Front: 10 seconds
                                      > Rear: 11 seconds
                                      >
                                      > Xootr Street
                                      > Front: 20 seconds
                                      > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                                      >
                                      > Xootr MG
                                      > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                                      > Rear: 21 seconds
                                      >
                                      > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                                      > Front: 45 seconds
                                      > Rear 27 seconds
                                      >
                                      > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in theory should go further over time. This lower rotational resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for every rotation.
                                      >
                                      > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle bolt, I got the following times:
                                      >
                                      > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                                      > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                                      > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the time was 25 seconds.
                                      >
                                      > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled, specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing tests in my next email.  
                                      >
                                      > It would really be nice if others did their own free wheeling timed tests and reported their findings.  The more data the better!  You don't need anything but a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat's case, he might want to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                                      >
                                      > My final observation - It seems to me that there was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty, the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime, and that would slow them down. However, when the front brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other way around.
                                      >
                                      > That's it for now,
                                      >
                                      > Mikey
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                      > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Not sure where you got that I don't normally care about speed or rolling resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his alleged test results.  I rode Xootr brand scooters for two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they were, if anything, slightly slower.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>
                                      >
                                      > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                      >
                                      > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                      >
                                      > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45% farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is favorable to his product):
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5 wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47 meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on a smooth concrete floor)."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Whether or not you normally care about speed and rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge difference, particularly when compared with my results, which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I should just send them to him.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > You are correct about the front braking system on the Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no effect on rolling resistance.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > John
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > Sorry, I hit send by accident.  As I was saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45% farther.  And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.  I don't have that problem with the Razor.  I feel bad about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be no question that the Razor is a superior product in just about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of all, durability.  Dorlene, if you believe in Karma, I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me onto this scooter!  
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                      >
                                      > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                      >
                                      > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                      >
                                      > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > I think you're over-thinking this.  I have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I switched to Razor last year.  I think the Razor glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the inch.  I'm positive about one thing though: there is NO WAY
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ ...>
                                      >
                                      > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                      >
                                      > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                      >
                                      > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >  
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > Edward,
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails, a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn. edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just confused about why his results are so much different from mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%, but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters, where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > John
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > > John,
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > Last year, I started a thread almost identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the same conclusion.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am not a dedicated scooter rider.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot more.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have any expectations to test both machines under controlled conditions, and carefully document the results.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be appreciated.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider, you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides more efficiently.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they are.
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > Edward Wong III
                                      >
                                      > > > Orlando, FL
                                      >
                                      > > > Viza Kikit Air
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > I would be very curious to know if any members of this board have compared the rolling distance of a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under identical conditions and many times, but I always got this same result.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor. I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He, too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the difference in our results. I wondered about whether the front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5 out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative efficiency"
                                      >
                                      > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/ ks.html
                                      >
                                      > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of how you tested this and how big the difference was between the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > It's important to actually run a test and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the weight of both riders should be made the same by having the lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > > John
                                      >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
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                                    • JV
                                      John, please dont take my OCD comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 28, 2010
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                                        John,

                                        please dont take my "OCD" comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after a disasterous blind date, in fact.

                                        the degree of tightness can be quantified with a torque wrench in "lbs per square inch". It would be good testing methodology to document this attribute for comparisons. Also if your frame/mount is at all "bent" this might cause one to have to really ratchet down on a wheel and thus alter rolling resistance/distance, I think? I know I had to chuck a pair of skates after a particularly bad crash bent my frame/wheel mount one time.

                                        Of course I am disappointed my sand theory didn't have more of a dramatic effect on the variables under test : (

                                        Anyway, hope all you folks did get some scootering in this weekend... weather was great out here on the west coast.


                                        JV


                                        --- On Sun, 3/28/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:

                                        > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                                        > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                        > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 8:04 PM
                                        > Mikey, I did the free-spinning test
                                        > on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts
                                        > and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times.
                                        > It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as
                                        > yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too
                                        > much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between
                                        > the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the
                                        > inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing
                                        > that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from
                                        > rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in
                                        > the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which
                                        > serve the same function. My free-spinning times are
                                        > currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings)
                                        > and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on
                                        > them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was
                                        > incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the
                                        > original bearings.)
                                        >
                                        > John
                                        >
                                        > --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com,
                                        > "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hey all,
                                        > >
                                        > > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a
                                        > chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more
                                        > Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably
                                        > contribute some value added comments to this message
                                        > thread.
                                        > >
                                        > > There is a fundamental difference between free
                                        > wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has
                                        > been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before
                                        > you do this type of testing, one should test the free
                                        > wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to
                                        > ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with
                                        > the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded
                                        > test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are
                                        > worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it
                                        > clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to
                                        > spin freely. Â Then, once you step on either platform and
                                        > exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a
                                        > loaded wheeling condition.
                                        > >
                                        > > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter
                                        > securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without
                                        > contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with
                                        > only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.
                                        > Â Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel
                                        > spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and
                                        > average your results. Â Then repeat this test on the other
                                        > wheel. Â You may be startled with the results!
                                        > >
                                        > > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the
                                        > following AVERAGED times:
                                        > >
                                        > > Razor A5
                                        > > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal!)
                                        > > Rear: 45 seconds
                                        > >
                                        > > Xootr Roma
                                        > > Front: 10 seconds
                                        > > Rear: 11 seconds
                                        > >
                                        > > Xootr Street
                                        > > Front: 20 seconds
                                        > > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                                        > >
                                        > > Xootr MG
                                        > > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                                        > > Rear: 21 seconds
                                        > >
                                        > > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                                        > > Front: 45 seconds
                                        > > Rear 27 seconds
                                        > >
                                        > > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of
                                        > the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My
                                        > overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the
                                        > Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in
                                        > theory should go further over time. This lower rotational
                                        > resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the
                                        > Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the
                                        > Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for
                                        > every rotation.
                                        > >
                                        > > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle
                                        > bolt, I got the following times:
                                        > >
                                        > > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                                        > > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the
                                        > wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                                        > > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the
                                        > time was 25 seconds.
                                        > >
                                        > > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition
                                        > of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled,
                                        > specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as
                                        > best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing
                                        > tests in my next email. Â
                                        > >
                                        > > It would really be nice if others did their own free
                                        > wheeling timed tests and reported their findings. Â The
                                        > more data the better! You don't need anything but
                                        > a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the
                                        > wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat's case, he might want
                                        > to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                                        > >
                                        > > My final observation - It seems to me that there
                                        > was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more
                                        > drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty,
                                        > the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime,
                                        > and that would slow them down. However, when the front
                                        > brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the
                                        > wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the
                                        > brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced
                                        > potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other
                                        > way around.
                                        > >
                                        > > That's it for now,
                                        > >
                                        > > Mikey
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                        > <swimminglaps@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@...>
                                        > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                        > rolling resistance
                                        > > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Â
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Not sure where you got
                                        > that I don't normally care about speed or rolling
                                        > resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess
                                        > what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his
                                        > alleged test results. I rode Xootr brand scooters for
                                        > two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were
                                        > not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my
                                        > Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they
                                        > were, if anything, slightly slower.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                        > <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                        > yahoo.com>
                                        > >
                                        > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                        > rolling resistance
                                        > >
                                        > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > >
                                        > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Â
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I
                                        > misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45%
                                        > farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his
                                        > tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he
                                        > wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is
                                        > favorable to his product):
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5
                                        > wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the
                                        > Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47
                                        > meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on
                                        > a smooth concrete floor)."
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Whether or not you normally care about speed and
                                        > rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge
                                        > difference, particularly when compared with my results,
                                        > which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a
                                        > look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I
                                        > should just send them to him.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > You are correct about the front braking system on the
                                        > Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I
                                        > already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no
                                        > effect on rolling resistance.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best
                                        > customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > John
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John
                                        > Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Sorry, I hit send by accident. As I was
                                        > saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45%
                                        > farther. And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the
                                        > slower it goes b/c of the front braking system. I
                                        > don't have that problem with the Razor. I feel bad
                                        > about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two
                                        > scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be
                                        > no question that the Razor is a superior product in just
                                        > about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of
                                        > gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of
                                        > all, durability. Dorlene, if you believe in Karma,
                                        > I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me
                                        > onto this scooter! ÂÂ
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                        > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                        > >
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs.
                                        > Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                        > >
                                        > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > >
                                        > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > I think you're over-thinking this. I
                                        > have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I
                                        > switched to Razor last year. I think the Razor
                                        > glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the
                                        > inch. I'm positive about one thing though: there is
                                        > NO WAY
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                        > <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                        > ...>
                                        > >
                                        > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                        > rolling resistance
                                        > >
                                        > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > >
                                        > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > ÂÂ
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Edward,
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where
                                        > you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you
                                        > provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this
                                        > topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not
                                        > independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who
                                        > didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his
                                        > subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails,
                                        > a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You
                                        > can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn.
                                        > edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just
                                        > confused about why his results are so much different from
                                        > mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%,
                                        > but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of
                                        > these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters,
                                        > where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be
                                        > some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly
                                        > variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > John
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward
                                        > W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > John,
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Last year, I started a thread almost
                                        > identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a
                                        > couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to
                                        > outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of
                                        > reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the
                                        > same conclusion.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr
                                        > Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me
                                        > why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in
                                        > spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am
                                        > not a dedicated scooter rider.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a
                                        > Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the
                                        > pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter
                                        > discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I
                                        > think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter
                                        > like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot
                                        > more.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal
                                        > evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you
                                        > found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's
                                        > opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that
                                        > should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have
                                        > any expectations to test both machines under controlled
                                        > conditions, and carefully document the results.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has
                                        > a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck
                                        > (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be
                                        > appreciated.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider,
                                        > you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work
                                        > from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is
                                        > slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides
                                        > more efficiently.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they
                                        > are.
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Edward Wong III
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Orlando, FL
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Viza Kikit Air
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                        > "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > I would be very curious to know if any
                                        > members of this board have compared the rolling distance of
                                        > a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor
                                        > A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to
                                        > my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls
                                        > significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill
                                        > than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under
                                        > identical conditions and many times, but I always got this
                                        > same result.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said
                                        > that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor.
                                        > I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at
                                        > the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind
                                        > enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but
                                        > again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the
                                        > co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He,
                                        > too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and
                                        > test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the
                                        > Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's
                                        > results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the
                                        > difference in our results. I wondered about whether the
                                        > front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel
                                        > under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the
                                        > Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5
                                        > out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the
                                        > A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative
                                        > efficiency"
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/
                                        > ks.html
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of
                                        > how you tested this and how big the difference was between
                                        > the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same
                                        > kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > It's important to actually run a test
                                        > and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter
                                        > is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might
                                        > give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather
                                        > than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to
                                        > maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day
                                        > when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take
                                        > the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same
                                        > spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the
                                        > weight of both riders should be made the same by having the
                                        > lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the
                                        > heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr
                                        > is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to
                                        > make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be
                                        > seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my
                                        > results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than
                                        > a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my
                                        > Xootr.
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > > John
                                        > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > >
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                                        > > >
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                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
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                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > NYCKickScooters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Michael Y. Knackerson
                                        All, Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 29, 2010
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                                          All,

                                          Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a slope, repeatedly, that started at an elevation of about 10 foot above the flat area with a slope that was approximately 200 feet long. In addition, I also did sprint trials to try to measure energy expended and measured in speed for a given distance. The results will speak for themselves, but it is apparent that my scale of testing was significantly greater when it comes to the distances involved, than the amount being reported with rolling values of 20 to 40 feet (micro hills, perhaps?).

                                          In any case, my results were very striking and to some of you, maybe surprising, and for all those free spinning testers out there, don't bother doing that ever again! Yes, I will admit that while I thought originally, that a long free spinning wheel would equate to a longer rolling scooter, I have been rudely awakened to the fact that free spinning has absolutely no correlation to rolling distance!

                                          I don't think that these results are totally conclusive, and I think that more testing could be done to further quantify the rolling resistance characteristics and parameters, but it will have to wait until I can find more time. Aside from scootering for 4 hours in the name of a pet science project, I also spent over 2 hours collating and analyzing the data. I'm also very sore from the sprint trials so I think I will be driving to work tomorrow instead of riding a Xootr.

                                          So, see the attached Excel file for the gruesome details and if there aren't enough numbers for you OCD people out there, I can help you dream up a few more statistics, if you like :-). Please note that if you have the Digest version of these YHG emails, you will NOT receive the attachment as the digest versions cannot transmit attachments, so email me directly, and I will send you the Excel file, so you can see the results.

                                          Happy scootering,

                                          MIkey

                                          PS: I'll eventually get back to all the side questions that writers have mentioned in other postings.... just bear with me, ok? M.



                                          --- On Sun, 3/28/10, JV <JV711@...> wrote:

                                          From: JV <JV711@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                          To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 10:06 PM
















                                           









                                          John,



                                          please dont take my "OCD" comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after a disasterous blind date, in fact.



                                          the degree of tightness can be quantified with a torque wrench in "lbs per square inch". It would be good testing methodology to document this attribute for comparisons. Also if your frame/mount is at all "bent" this might cause one to have to really ratchet down on a wheel and thus alter rolling resistance/distance , I think? I know I had to chuck a pair of skates after a particularly bad crash bent my frame/wheel mount one time.



                                          Of course I am disappointed my sand theory didn't have more of a dramatic effect on the variables under test : (



                                          Anyway, hope all you folks did get some scootering in this weekend... weather was great out here on the west coast.



                                          JV



                                          --- On Sun, 3/28/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:



                                          > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>

                                          > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance

                                          > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                                          > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 8:04 PM

                                          > Mikey, I did the free-spinning test

                                          > on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts

                                          > and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times.

                                          > It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as

                                          > yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too

                                          > much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between

                                          > the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the

                                          > inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing

                                          > that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from

                                          > rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in

                                          > the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which

                                          > serve the same function. My free-spinning times are

                                          > currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings)

                                          > and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on

                                          > them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was

                                          > incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the

                                          > original bearings.)

                                          >

                                          > John

                                          >

                                          > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,

                                          > "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@...> wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > Hey all,

                                          > >

                                          > > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a

                                          > chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more

                                          > Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably

                                          > contribute some value added comments to this message

                                          > thread.

                                          > >

                                          > > There is a fundamental difference between free

                                          > wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has

                                          > been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before

                                          > you do this type of testing, one should test the free

                                          > wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to

                                          > ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with

                                          > the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded

                                          > test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are

                                          > worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it

                                          > clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to

                                          > spin freely. Â Then, once you step on either platform and

                                          > exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a

                                          > loaded wheeling condition.

                                          > >

                                          > > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter

                                          > securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without

                                          > contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with

                                          > only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.

                                          > Â Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel

                                          > spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and

                                          > average your results. Â Then repeat this test on the other

                                          > wheel. Â You may be startled with the results!

                                          > >

                                          > > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the

                                          > following AVERAGED times:

                                          > >

                                          > > Razor A5

                                          > > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal! )

                                          > > Rear: 45 seconds

                                          > >

                                          > > Xootr Roma

                                          > > Front: 10 seconds

                                          > > Rear: 11 seconds

                                          > >

                                          > > Xootr Street

                                          > > Front: 20 seconds

                                          > > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)

                                          > >

                                          > > Xootr MG

                                          > > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)

                                          > > Rear: 21 seconds

                                          > >

                                          > > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)

                                          > > Front: 45 seconds

                                          > > Rear 27 seconds

                                          > >

                                          > > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of

                                          > the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My

                                          > overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the

                                          > Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in

                                          > theory should go further over time. This lower rotational

                                          > resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the

                                          > Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the

                                          > Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for

                                          > every rotation.

                                          > >

                                          > > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle

                                          > bolt, I got the following times:

                                          > >

                                          > > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds

                                          > > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the

                                          > wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose

                                          > > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the

                                          > time was 25 seconds.

                                          > >

                                          > > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition

                                          > of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled,

                                          > specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as

                                          > best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing

                                          > tests in my next email. Â

                                          > >

                                          > > It would really be nice if others did their own free

                                          > wheeling timed tests and reported their findings. Â The

                                          > more data the better! You don't need anything but

                                          > a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the

                                          > wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat' s case, he might want

                                          > to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.

                                          > >

                                          > > My final observation - It seems to me that there

                                          > was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more

                                          > drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty,

                                          > the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime,

                                          > and that would slow them down. However, when the front

                                          > brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the

                                          > wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the

                                          > brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced

                                          > potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other

                                          > way around.

                                          > >

                                          > > That's it for now,

                                          > >

                                          > > Mikey

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta

                                          > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>

                                          > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5

                                          > rolling resistance

                                          > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                                          > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > Â

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > Not sure where you got

                                          > that I don't normally care about speed or rolling

                                          > resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess

                                          > what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his

                                          > alleged test results. I rode Xootr brand scooters for

                                          > two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were

                                          > not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my

                                          > Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they

                                          > were, if anything, slightly slower.

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat

                                          > <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@

                                          > yahoo.com>

                                          > >

                                          > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5

                                          > rolling resistance

                                          > >

                                          > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                                          > >

                                          > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > Â

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I

                                          > misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45%

                                          > farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his

                                          > tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he

                                          > wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is

                                          > favorable to his product):

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5

                                          > wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the

                                          > Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47

                                          > meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on

                                          > a smooth concrete floor)."

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > Whether or not you normally care about speed and

                                          > rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge

                                          > difference, particularly when compared with my results,

                                          > which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a

                                          > look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I

                                          > should just send them to him.

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > You are correct about the front braking system on the

                                          > Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I

                                          > already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no

                                          > effect on rolling resistance.

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best

                                          > customer service I've ever encountered in my life.

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > John

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John

                                          > Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > Sorry, I hit send by accident. As I was

                                          > saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45%

                                          > farther. And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the

                                          > slower it goes b/c of the front braking system. I

                                          > don't have that problem with the Razor. I feel bad

                                          > about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two

                                          > scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be

                                          > no question that the Razor is a superior product in just

                                          > about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of

                                          > gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of

                                          > all, durability. Dorlene, if you believe in Karma,

                                          > I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me

                                          > onto this scooter! ÂÂ

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta

                                          > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>

                                          > >

                                          > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs.

                                          > Razor A5 rolling resistance

                                          > >

                                          > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                                          > >

                                          > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > I think you're over-thinking this. I

                                          > have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I

                                          > switched to Razor last year. I think the Razor

                                          > glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the

                                          > inch. I'm positive about one thing though: there is

                                          > NO WAY

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat

                                          > <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@

                                          > ...>

                                          > >

                                          > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5

                                          > rolling resistance

                                          > >

                                          > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com

                                          > >

                                          > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > ÂÂ

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > Edward,

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where

                                          > you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you

                                          > provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this

                                          > topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not

                                          > independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who

                                          > didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his

                                          > subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.

                                          >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails,

                                          > a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You

                                          > can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn.

                                          > edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just

                                          > confused about why his results are so much different from

                                          > mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%,

                                          > but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of

                                          > these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters,

                                          > where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be

                                          > some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly

                                          > variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > John

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward

                                          > W" <edwong3@ > wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > John,

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Last year, I started a thread almost

                                          > identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a

                                          > couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to

                                          > outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of

                                          > reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the

                                          > same conclusion.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr

                                          > Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me

                                          > why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in

                                          > spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am

                                          > not a dedicated scooter rider.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a

                                          > Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the

                                          > pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter

                                          > discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I

                                          > think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter

                                          > like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot

                                          > more.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal

                                          > evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you

                                          > found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's

                                          > opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that

                                          > should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have

                                          > any expectations to test both machines under controlled

                                          > conditions, and carefully document the results.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has

                                          > a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck

                                          > (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be

                                          > appreciated.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider,

                                          > you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work

                                          > from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is

                                          > slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides

                                          > more efficiently.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they

                                          > are.

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Edward Wong III

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Orlando, FL

                                          > >

                                          > > > > Viza Kikit Air

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,

                                          > "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > I would be very curious to know if any

                                          > members of this board have compared the rolling distance of

                                          > a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor

                                          > A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to

                                          > my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls

                                          > significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill

                                          > than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under

                                          > identical conditions and many times, but I always got this

                                          > same result.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said

                                          > that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor.

                                          > I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at

                                          > the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind

                                          > enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but

                                          > again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the

                                          > co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He,

                                          > too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and

                                          > test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the

                                          > Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's

                                          > results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the

                                          > difference in our results. I wondered about whether the

                                          > front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel

                                          > under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the

                                          > Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5

                                          > out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the

                                          > A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative

                                          > efficiency"

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/

                                          > ks.html

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of

                                          > how you tested this and how big the difference was between

                                          > the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same

                                          > kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > It's important to actually run a test

                                          > and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter

                                          > is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might

                                          > give a false sense of higher speed because of that.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather

                                          > than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to

                                          > maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day

                                          > when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take

                                          > the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same

                                          > spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the

                                          > weight of both riders should be made the same by having the

                                          > lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the

                                          > heavier rider will go faster downhill.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr

                                          > is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to

                                          > make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be

                                          > seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my

                                          > results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than

                                          > a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my

                                          > Xootr.

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > > > John

                                          > >

                                          > > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

                                          > removed]

                                          > >

                                          > > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > >

                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          > >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >

                                          > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                          >

                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                          >

                                          >

                                          > NYCKickScooters- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com

                                          >

                                          >

                                          >






























                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Karen Little - Littleviews
                                          Thanks, Mikey, for interpreting your spreadsheet comparing at line 60! Now, please answer these questions: 1 - between the Razor and Xooter, what does the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 29, 2010
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                                            Thanks, Mikey, for interpreting your spreadsheet comparing at line 60!
                                             
                                            Now, please answer these questions:
                                             
                                            1 - between the Razor and Xooter, what does the difference in price buy the average rider?
                                            2 - under what social conditions would this difference be noticeable and of value?
                                            3 - do you think we can generate interest and co-branding from the NASCAR organization?
                                             
                                            Karen
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:27 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance

                                             

                                            All,

                                            Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a slope, repeatedly, that started at an elevation of about 10 foot above the flat area with a slope that was approximately 200 feet long. In addition, I also did sprint trials to try to measure energy expended and measured in speed for a given distance. The results will speak for themselves, but it is apparent that my scale of testing was significantly greater when it comes to the distances involved, than the amount being reported with rolling values of 20 to 40 feet (micro hills, perhaps?).

                                            In any case, my results were very striking and to some of you, maybe surprising, and for all those free spinning testers out there, don't bother doing that ever again! Yes, I will admit that while I thought originally, that a long free spinning wheel would equate to a longer rolling scooter, I have been rudely awakened to the fact that free spinning has absolutely no correlation to rolling distance!

                                            I don't think that these results are totally conclusive, and I think that more testing could be done to further quantify the rolling resistance characteristics and parameters, but it will have to wait until I can find more time. Aside from scootering for 4 hours in the name of a pet science project, I also spent over 2 hours collating and analyzing the data. I'm also very sore from the sprint trials so I think I will be driving to work tomorrow instead of riding a Xootr.

                                            So, see the attached Excel file for the gruesome details and if there aren't enough numbers for you OCD people out there, I can help you dream up a few more statistics, if you like :-). Please note that if you have the Digest version of these YHG emails, you will NOT receive the attachment as the digest versions cannot transmit attachments, so email me directly, and I will send you the Excel file, so you can see the results.

                                            Happy scootering,

                                            MIkey

                                            PS: I'll eventually get back to all the side questions that writers have mentioned in other postings.... just bear with me, ok? M.

                                            --- On Sun, 3/28/10, JV <JV711@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                          • maknak
                                            All, Well, I m getting emails from readers that say they did not get the attachment, so while I work with Dorlene to figure out why the attachment didn t go
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 29, 2010
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                                              All,

                                              Well, I'm getting emails from readers that say they did not get the attachment, so while I work with Dorlene to figure out why the attachment didn't go out, I've decided to post it on a website.

                                              You will have to go to the site and zoom to at least 150% to see the image clearly and I've also posted a hyperlink in the lower left corner, so you can download the file directly. Here's the link to the attachment page:

                                              http://nihon.homestead.com/kick.html

                                              MIkey

                                              PS: I just got an email from Dorlene and she apparently set email attachments to store on the YHG websites, so it's probably in the files section there? I dunno, I didn't check, since this posting provides the information previously posted. M


                                              --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > All,
                                              >
                                              > Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a slope, repeatedly, that started at an elevation of about 10 foot above the flat area with a slope that was approximately 200 feet long. In addition, I also did sprint trials to try to measure energy expended and measured in speed for a given distance. The results will speak for themselves, but it is apparent that my scale of testing was significantly greater when it comes to the distances involved, than the amount being reported with rolling values of 20 to 40 feet (micro hills, perhaps?).
                                              >
                                              > In any case, my results were very striking and to some of you, maybe surprising, and for all those free spinning testers out there, don't bother doing that ever again! Yes, I will admit that while I thought originally, that a long free spinning wheel would equate to a longer rolling scooter, I have been rudely awakened to the fact that free spinning has absolutely no correlation to rolling distance!
                                              >
                                              > I don't think that these results are totally conclusive, and I think that more testing could be done to further quantify the rolling resistance characteristics and parameters, but it will have to wait until I can find more time. Aside from scootering for 4 hours in the name of a pet science project, I also spent over 2 hours collating and analyzing the data. I'm also very sore from the sprint trials so I think I will be driving to work tomorrow instead of riding a Xootr.
                                              >
                                              > So, see the attached Excel file for the gruesome details and if there aren't enough numbers for you OCD people out there, I can help you dream up a few more statistics, if you like :-). Please note that if you have the Digest version of these YHG emails, you will NOT receive the attachment as the digest versions cannot transmit attachments, so email me directly, and I will send you the Excel file, so you can see the results.
                                              >
                                              > Happy scootering,
                                              >
                                              > MIkey
                                              >
                                              > PS: I'll eventually get back to all the side questions that writers have mentioned in other postings.... just bear with me, ok? M.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, JV <JV711@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > From: JV <JV711@...>
                                              > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                              > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 10:06 PM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > John,
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > please dont take my "OCD" comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after a disasterous blind date, in fact.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > the degree of tightness can be quantified with a torque wrench in "lbs per square inch". It would be good testing methodology to document this attribute for comparisons. Also if your frame/mount is at all "bent" this might cause one to have to really ratchet down on a wheel and thus alter rolling resistance/distance , I think? I know I had to chuck a pair of skates after a particularly bad crash bent my frame/wheel mount one time.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Of course I am disappointed my sand theory didn't have more of a dramatic effect on the variables under test : (
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Anyway, hope all you folks did get some scootering in this weekend... weather was great out here on the west coast.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > JV
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>
                                              >
                                              > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                              >
                                              > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                              >
                                              > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 8:04 PM
                                              >
                                              > > Mikey, I did the free-spinning test
                                              >
                                              > > on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts
                                              >
                                              > > and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times.
                                              >
                                              > > It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as
                                              >
                                              > > yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too
                                              >
                                              > > much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between
                                              >
                                              > > the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the
                                              >
                                              > > inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing
                                              >
                                              > > that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from
                                              >
                                              > > rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in
                                              >
                                              > > the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which
                                              >
                                              > > serve the same function. My free-spinning times are
                                              >
                                              > > currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings)
                                              >
                                              > > and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on
                                              >
                                              > > them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was
                                              >
                                              > > incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the
                                              >
                                              > > original bearings.)
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > John
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                              >
                                              > > "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Hey all,
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a
                                              >
                                              > > chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more
                                              >
                                              > > Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably
                                              >
                                              > > contribute some value added comments to this message
                                              >
                                              > > thread.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > There is a fundamental difference between free
                                              >
                                              > > wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has
                                              >
                                              > > been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before
                                              >
                                              > > you do this type of testing, one should test the free
                                              >
                                              > > wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to
                                              >
                                              > > ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with
                                              >
                                              > > the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded
                                              >
                                              > > test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are
                                              >
                                              > > worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it
                                              >
                                              > > clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to
                                              >
                                              > > spin freely. Â Then, once you step on either platform and
                                              >
                                              > > exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a
                                              >
                                              > > loaded wheeling condition.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter
                                              >
                                              > > securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without
                                              >
                                              > > contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with
                                              >
                                              > > only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.
                                              >
                                              > > Â Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel
                                              >
                                              > > spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and
                                              >
                                              > > average your results. Â Then repeat this test on the other
                                              >
                                              > > wheel. Â You may be startled with the results!
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the
                                              >
                                              > > following AVERAGED times:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Razor A5
                                              >
                                              > > > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal! )
                                              >
                                              > > > Rear: 45 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Xootr Roma
                                              >
                                              > > > Front: 10 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > > Rear: 11 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Xootr Street
                                              >
                                              > > > Front: 20 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Xootr MG
                                              >
                                              > > > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                                              >
                                              > > > Rear: 21 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                                              >
                                              > > > Front: 45 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > > Rear 27 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of
                                              >
                                              > > the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My
                                              >
                                              > > overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the
                                              >
                                              > > Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in
                                              >
                                              > > theory should go further over time. This lower rotational
                                              >
                                              > > resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the
                                              >
                                              > > Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the
                                              >
                                              > > Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for
                                              >
                                              > > every rotation.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle
                                              >
                                              > > bolt, I got the following times:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                                              >
                                              > > > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the
                                              >
                                              > > wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                                              >
                                              > > > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the
                                              >
                                              > > time was 25 seconds.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition
                                              >
                                              > > of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled,
                                              >
                                              > > specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as
                                              >
                                              > > best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing
                                              >
                                              > > tests in my next email. Â
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > It would really be nice if others did their own free
                                              >
                                              > > wheeling timed tests and reported their findings. Â The
                                              >
                                              > > more data the better! You don't need anything but
                                              >
                                              > > a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the
                                              >
                                              > > wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat' s case, he might want
                                              >
                                              > > to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > My final observation - It seems to me that there
                                              >
                                              > > was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more
                                              >
                                              > > drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty,
                                              >
                                              > > the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime,
                                              >
                                              > > and that would slow them down. However, when the front
                                              >
                                              > > brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the
                                              >
                                              > > wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the
                                              >
                                              > > brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced
                                              >
                                              > > potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other
                                              >
                                              > > way around.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > That's it for now,
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Mikey
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                              >
                                              > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                              >
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                              >
                                              > > rolling resistance
                                              >
                                              > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                              >
                                              > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Â
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Not sure where you got
                                              >
                                              > > that I don't normally care about speed or rolling
                                              >
                                              > > resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess
                                              >
                                              > > what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his
                                              >
                                              > > alleged test results. I rode Xootr brand scooters for
                                              >
                                              > > two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were
                                              >
                                              > > not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my
                                              >
                                              > > Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they
                                              >
                                              > > were, if anything, slightly slower.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                              >
                                              > > <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                              >
                                              > > yahoo.com>
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                              >
                                              > > rolling resistance
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Â
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I
                                              >
                                              > > misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45%
                                              >
                                              > > farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his
                                              >
                                              > > tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he
                                              >
                                              > > wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is
                                              >
                                              > > favorable to his product):
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5
                                              >
                                              > > wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the
                                              >
                                              > > Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47
                                              >
                                              > > meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on
                                              >
                                              > > a smooth concrete floor)."
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Whether or not you normally care about speed and
                                              >
                                              > > rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge
                                              >
                                              > > difference, particularly when compared with my results,
                                              >
                                              > > which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a
                                              >
                                              > > look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I
                                              >
                                              > > should just send them to him.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > You are correct about the front braking system on the
                                              >
                                              > > Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I
                                              >
                                              > > already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no
                                              >
                                              > > effect on rolling resistance.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best
                                              >
                                              > > customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > John
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John
                                              >
                                              > > Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Sorry, I hit send by accident. As I was
                                              >
                                              > > saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45%
                                              >
                                              > > farther. And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the
                                              >
                                              > > slower it goes b/c of the front braking system. I
                                              >
                                              > > don't have that problem with the Razor. I feel bad
                                              >
                                              > > about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two
                                              >
                                              > > scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be
                                              >
                                              > > no question that the Razor is a superior product in just
                                              >
                                              > > about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of
                                              >
                                              > > gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of
                                              >
                                              > > all, durability. Dorlene, if you believe in Karma,
                                              >
                                              > > I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me
                                              >
                                              > > onto this scooter! ÂÂ
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                              >
                                              > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs.
                                              >
                                              > > Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > I think you're over-thinking this. I
                                              >
                                              > > have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I
                                              >
                                              > > switched to Razor last year. I think the Razor
                                              >
                                              > > glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the
                                              >
                                              > > inch. I'm positive about one thing though: there is
                                              >
                                              > > NO WAY
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                              >
                                              > > <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                              >
                                              > > ...>
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                              >
                                              > > rolling resistance
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > ÂÂ
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Edward,
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where
                                              >
                                              > > you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you
                                              >
                                              > > provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this
                                              >
                                              > > topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not
                                              >
                                              > > independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who
                                              >
                                              > > didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his
                                              >
                                              > > subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails,
                                              >
                                              > > a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You
                                              >
                                              > > can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn.
                                              >
                                              > > edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just
                                              >
                                              > > confused about why his results are so much different from
                                              >
                                              > > mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%,
                                              >
                                              > > but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of
                                              >
                                              > > these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters,
                                              >
                                              > > where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be
                                              >
                                              > > some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly
                                              >
                                              > > variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > John
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward
                                              >
                                              > > W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > John,
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Last year, I started a thread almost
                                              >
                                              > > identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a
                                              >
                                              > > couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to
                                              >
                                              > > outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of
                                              >
                                              > > reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the
                                              >
                                              > > same conclusion.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr
                                              >
                                              > > Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me
                                              >
                                              > > why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in
                                              >
                                              > > spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am
                                              >
                                              > > not a dedicated scooter rider.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a
                                              >
                                              > > Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the
                                              >
                                              > > pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter
                                              >
                                              > > discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I
                                              >
                                              > > think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter
                                              >
                                              > > like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot
                                              >
                                              > > more.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal
                                              >
                                              > > evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you
                                              >
                                              > > found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's
                                              >
                                              > > opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that
                                              >
                                              > > should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have
                                              >
                                              > > any expectations to test both machines under controlled
                                              >
                                              > > conditions, and carefully document the results.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has
                                              >
                                              > > a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck
                                              >
                                              > > (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be
                                              >
                                              > > appreciated.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider,
                                              >
                                              > > you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work
                                              >
                                              > > from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is
                                              >
                                              > > slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides
                                              >
                                              > > more efficiently.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they
                                              >
                                              > > are.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Edward Wong III
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Orlando, FL
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > Viza Kikit Air
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                              >
                                              > > "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > I would be very curious to know if any
                                              >
                                              > > members of this board have compared the rolling distance of
                                              >
                                              > > a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor
                                              >
                                              > > A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to
                                              >
                                              > > my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls
                                              >
                                              > > significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill
                                              >
                                              > > than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under
                                              >
                                              > > identical conditions and many times, but I always got this
                                              >
                                              > > same result.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said
                                              >
                                              > > that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor.
                                              >
                                              > > I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at
                                              >
                                              > > the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind
                                              >
                                              > > enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but
                                              >
                                              > > again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the
                                              >
                                              > > co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He,
                                              >
                                              > > too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and
                                              >
                                              > > test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the
                                              >
                                              > > Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's
                                              >
                                              > > results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the
                                              >
                                              > > difference in our results. I wondered about whether the
                                              >
                                              > > front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel
                                              >
                                              > > under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the
                                              >
                                              > > Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5
                                              >
                                              > > out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the
                                              >
                                              > > A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative
                                              >
                                              > > efficiency"
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/
                                              >
                                              > > ks.html
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of
                                              >
                                              > > how you tested this and how big the difference was between
                                              >
                                              > > the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same
                                              >
                                              > > kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > It's important to actually run a test
                                              >
                                              > > and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter
                                              >
                                              > > is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might
                                              >
                                              > > give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather
                                              >
                                              > > than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to
                                              >
                                              > > maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day
                                              >
                                              > > when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take
                                              >
                                              > > the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same
                                              >
                                              > > spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the
                                              >
                                              > > weight of both riders should be made the same by having the
                                              >
                                              > > lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the
                                              >
                                              > > heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr
                                              >
                                              > > is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to
                                              >
                                              > > make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be
                                              >
                                              > > seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my
                                              >
                                              > > results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than
                                              >
                                              > > a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my
                                              >
                                              > > Xootr.
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > > John
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                              >
                                              > > removed]
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > NYCKickScooters- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • maskedmarvelswat
                                              Mikey, Thank you! Your results are fascinating. This shows that it s important to actually test rather than rely on subjective impressions. Wow - even the
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 29, 2010
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                                                Mikey,

                                                Thank you! Your results are fascinating. This shows that it's important to actually test rather than rely on subjective impressions. Wow - even the Knowped beat the Razor A5 in one of your runs! Who would have known.

                                                If you don't mind a personal question, may I ask you how much you weigh? I'm close to the maximum weight limit of the A5 myself. By any chance, are you a slim guy, like Sheldon in Big Bang Theory? (I don't know why that image came to my mind). I'm wondering if the Razor A5 might be faster than the Xootr for heavy guys like myself due to the harder wheels on the A5. When I'm riding the Xootr, my weight may be compressing on the soft tires too much, making the contact surface of the tires wide and also abolishing the rebound of the polyurethane. I'm just speculating in an effort to explain the differences in our results.

                                                John

                                                --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "maknak" <maknak@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > All,
                                                >
                                                > Well, I'm getting emails from readers that say they did not get the attachment, so while I work with Dorlene to figure out why the attachment didn't go out, I've decided to post it on a website.
                                                >
                                                > You will have to go to the site and zoom to at least 150% to see the image clearly and I've also posted a hyperlink in the lower left corner, so you can download the file directly. Here's the link to the attachment page:
                                                >
                                                > http://nihon.homestead.com/kick.html
                                                >
                                                > MIkey
                                                >
                                                > PS: I just got an email from Dorlene and she apparently set email attachments to store on the YHG websites, so it's probably in the files section there? I dunno, I didn't check, since this posting provides the information previously posted. M
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > All,
                                                > >
                                                > > Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a slope, repeatedly, that started at an elevation of about 10 foot above the flat area with a slope that was approximately 200 feet long. In addition, I also did sprint trials to try to measure energy expended and measured in speed for a given distance. The results will speak for themselves, but it is apparent that my scale of testing was significantly greater when it comes to the distances involved, than the amount being reported with rolling values of 20 to 40 feet (micro hills, perhaps?).
                                                > >
                                                > > In any case, my results were very striking and to some of you, maybe surprising, and for all those free spinning testers out there, don't bother doing that ever again! Yes, I will admit that while I thought originally, that a long free spinning wheel would equate to a longer rolling scooter, I have been rudely awakened to the fact that free spinning has absolutely no correlation to rolling distance!
                                                > >
                                                > > I don't think that these results are totally conclusive, and I think that more testing could be done to further quantify the rolling resistance characteristics and parameters, but it will have to wait until I can find more time. Aside from scootering for 4 hours in the name of a pet science project, I also spent over 2 hours collating and analyzing the data. I'm also very sore from the sprint trials so I think I will be driving to work tomorrow instead of riding a Xootr.
                                                > >
                                                > > So, see the attached Excel file for the gruesome details and if there aren't enough numbers for you OCD people out there, I can help you dream up a few more statistics, if you like :-). Please note that if you have the Digest version of these YHG emails, you will NOT receive the attachment as the digest versions cannot transmit attachments, so email me directly, and I will send you the Excel file, so you can see the results.
                                                > >
                                                > > Happy scootering,
                                                > >
                                                > > MIkey
                                                > >
                                                > > PS: I'll eventually get back to all the side questions that writers have mentioned in other postings.... just bear with me, ok? M.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, JV <JV711@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > From: JV <JV711@>
                                                > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                > > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 10:06 PM
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >  
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > John,
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > please dont take my "OCD" comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after a disasterous blind date, in fact.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > the degree of tightness can be quantified with a torque wrench in "lbs per square inch". It would be good testing methodology to document this attribute for comparisons. Also if your frame/mount is at all "bent" this might cause one to have to really ratchet down on a wheel and thus alter rolling resistance/distance , I think? I know I had to chuck a pair of skates after a particularly bad crash bent my frame/wheel mount one time.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Of course I am disappointed my sand theory didn't have more of a dramatic effect on the variables under test : (
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Anyway, hope all you folks did get some scootering in this weekend... weather was great out here on the west coast.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > JV
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>
                                                > >
                                                > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                > >
                                                > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > >
                                                > > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 8:04 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > > Mikey, I did the free-spinning test
                                                > >
                                                > > > on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts
                                                > >
                                                > > > and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times.
                                                > >
                                                > > > It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as
                                                > >
                                                > > > yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too
                                                > >
                                                > > > much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between
                                                > >
                                                > > > the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the
                                                > >
                                                > > > inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing
                                                > >
                                                > > > that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from
                                                > >
                                                > > > rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in
                                                > >
                                                > > > the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which
                                                > >
                                                > > > serve the same function. My free-spinning times are
                                                > >
                                                > > > currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings)
                                                > >
                                                > > > and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on
                                                > >
                                                > > > them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was
                                                > >
                                                > > > incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the
                                                > >
                                                > > > original bearings.)
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > John
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                > >
                                                > > > "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Hey all,
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a
                                                > >
                                                > > > chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably
                                                > >
                                                > > > contribute some value added comments to this message
                                                > >
                                                > > > thread.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > There is a fundamental difference between free
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has
                                                > >
                                                > > > been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before
                                                > >
                                                > > > you do this type of testing, one should test the free
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to
                                                > >
                                                > > > ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with
                                                > >
                                                > > > the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded
                                                > >
                                                > > > test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are
                                                > >
                                                > > > worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it
                                                > >
                                                > > > clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to
                                                > >
                                                > > > spin freely. Â Then, once you step on either platform and
                                                > >
                                                > > > exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a
                                                > >
                                                > > > loaded wheeling condition.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter
                                                > >
                                                > > > securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without
                                                > >
                                                > > > contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with
                                                > >
                                                > > > only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.
                                                > >
                                                > > > Â Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel
                                                > >
                                                > > > spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and
                                                > >
                                                > > > average your results. Â Then repeat this test on the other
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheel. Â You may be startled with the results!
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the
                                                > >
                                                > > > following AVERAGED times:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Razor A5
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal! )
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Rear: 45 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Xootr Roma
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Front: 10 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Rear: 11 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Xootr Street
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Front: 20 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Xootr MG
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Rear: 21 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Front: 45 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Rear 27 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of
                                                > >
                                                > > > the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My
                                                > >
                                                > > > overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in
                                                > >
                                                > > > theory should go further over time. This lower rotational
                                                > >
                                                > > > resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for
                                                > >
                                                > > > every rotation.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle
                                                > >
                                                > > > bolt, I got the following times:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                                                > >
                                                > > > > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                                                > >
                                                > > > > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > time was 25 seconds.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition
                                                > >
                                                > > > of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled,
                                                > >
                                                > > > specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as
                                                > >
                                                > > > best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing
                                                > >
                                                > > > tests in my next email. Â
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > It would really be nice if others did their own free
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheeling timed tests and reported their findings. Â The
                                                > >
                                                > > > more data the better! You don't need anything but
                                                > >
                                                > > > a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat' s case, he might want
                                                > >
                                                > > > to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > My final observation - It seems to me that there
                                                > >
                                                > > > was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more
                                                > >
                                                > > > drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty,
                                                > >
                                                > > > the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime,
                                                > >
                                                > > > and that would slow them down. However, when the front
                                                > >
                                                > > > brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the
                                                > >
                                                > > > brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced
                                                > >
                                                > > > potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other
                                                > >
                                                > > > way around.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > That's it for now,
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Mikey
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                                > >
                                                > > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                > >
                                                > > > rolling resistance
                                                > >
                                                > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Â
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Not sure where you got
                                                > >
                                                > > > that I don't normally care about speed or rolling
                                                > >
                                                > > > resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess
                                                > >
                                                > > > what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his
                                                > >
                                                > > > alleged test results. I rode Xootr brand scooters for
                                                > >
                                                > > > two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were
                                                > >
                                                > > > not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my
                                                > >
                                                > > > Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they
                                                > >
                                                > > > were, if anything, slightly slower.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                                > >
                                                > > > <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                                > >
                                                > > > yahoo.com>
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                > >
                                                > > > rolling resistance
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Â
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I
                                                > >
                                                > > > misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45%
                                                > >
                                                > > > farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his
                                                > >
                                                > > > tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he
                                                > >
                                                > > > wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is
                                                > >
                                                > > > favorable to his product):
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5
                                                > >
                                                > > > wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47
                                                > >
                                                > > > meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on
                                                > >
                                                > > > a smooth concrete floor)."
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > Whether or not you normally care about speed and
                                                > >
                                                > > > rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge
                                                > >
                                                > > > difference, particularly when compared with my results,
                                                > >
                                                > > > which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a
                                                > >
                                                > > > look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I
                                                > >
                                                > > > should just send them to him.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > You are correct about the front braking system on the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I
                                                > >
                                                > > > already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no
                                                > >
                                                > > > effect on rolling resistance.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best
                                                > >
                                                > > > customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > John
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John
                                                > >
                                                > > > Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Sorry, I hit send by accident. As I was
                                                > >
                                                > > > saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45%
                                                > >
                                                > > > farther. And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > slower it goes b/c of the front braking system. I
                                                > >
                                                > > > don't have that problem with the Razor. I feel bad
                                                > >
                                                > > > about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two
                                                > >
                                                > > > scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be
                                                > >
                                                > > > no question that the Razor is a superior product in just
                                                > >
                                                > > > about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of
                                                > >
                                                > > > gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of
                                                > >
                                                > > > all, durability. Dorlene, if you believe in Karma,
                                                > >
                                                > > > I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me
                                                > >
                                                > > > onto this scooter! ÂÂ
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                                > >
                                                > > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs.
                                                > >
                                                > > > Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > I think you're over-thinking this. I
                                                > >
                                                > > > have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I
                                                > >
                                                > > > switched to Razor last year. I think the Razor
                                                > >
                                                > > > glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the
                                                > >
                                                > > > inch. I'm positive about one thing though: there is
                                                > >
                                                > > > NO WAY
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                                > >
                                                > > > <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                                > >
                                                > > > ...>
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                > >
                                                > > > rolling resistance
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > ÂÂ
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Edward,
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where
                                                > >
                                                > > > you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you
                                                > >
                                                > > > provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this
                                                > >
                                                > > > topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not
                                                > >
                                                > > > independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who
                                                > >
                                                > > > didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his
                                                > >
                                                > > > subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails,
                                                > >
                                                > > > a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You
                                                > >
                                                > > > can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn.
                                                > >
                                                > > > edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just
                                                > >
                                                > > > confused about why his results are so much different from
                                                > >
                                                > > > mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%,
                                                > >
                                                > > > but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of
                                                > >
                                                > > > these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters,
                                                > >
                                                > > > where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be
                                                > >
                                                > > > some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly
                                                > >
                                                > > > variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > John
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward
                                                > >
                                                > > > W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > John,
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Last year, I started a thread almost
                                                > >
                                                > > > identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a
                                                > >
                                                > > > couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to
                                                > >
                                                > > > outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of
                                                > >
                                                > > > reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the
                                                > >
                                                > > > same conclusion.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr
                                                > >
                                                > > > Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me
                                                > >
                                                > > > why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in
                                                > >
                                                > > > spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am
                                                > >
                                                > > > not a dedicated scooter rider.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a
                                                > >
                                                > > > Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the
                                                > >
                                                > > > pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter
                                                > >
                                                > > > discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I
                                                > >
                                                > > > think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter
                                                > >
                                                > > > like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot
                                                > >
                                                > > > more.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal
                                                > >
                                                > > > evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you
                                                > >
                                                > > > found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's
                                                > >
                                                > > > opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that
                                                > >
                                                > > > should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have
                                                > >
                                                > > > any expectations to test both machines under controlled
                                                > >
                                                > > > conditions, and carefully document the results.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has
                                                > >
                                                > > > a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck
                                                > >
                                                > > > (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be
                                                > >
                                                > > > appreciated.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider,
                                                > >
                                                > > > you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work
                                                > >
                                                > > > from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is
                                                > >
                                                > > > slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides
                                                > >
                                                > > > more efficiently.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they
                                                > >
                                                > > > are.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Edward Wong III
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Orlando, FL
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > Viza Kikit Air
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                > >
                                                > > > "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > I would be very curious to know if any
                                                > >
                                                > > > members of this board have compared the rolling distance of
                                                > >
                                                > > > a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor
                                                > >
                                                > > > A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to
                                                > >
                                                > > > my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls
                                                > >
                                                > > > significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill
                                                > >
                                                > > > than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under
                                                > >
                                                > > > identical conditions and many times, but I always got this
                                                > >
                                                > > > same result.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said
                                                > >
                                                > > > that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor.
                                                > >
                                                > > > I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at
                                                > >
                                                > > > the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind
                                                > >
                                                > > > enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but
                                                > >
                                                > > > again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He,
                                                > >
                                                > > > too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and
                                                > >
                                                > > > test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's
                                                > >
                                                > > > results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the
                                                > >
                                                > > > difference in our results. I wondered about whether the
                                                > >
                                                > > > front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel
                                                > >
                                                > > > under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5
                                                > >
                                                > > > out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the
                                                > >
                                                > > > A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative
                                                > >
                                                > > > efficiency"
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/
                                                > >
                                                > > > ks.html
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of
                                                > >
                                                > > > how you tested this and how big the difference was between
                                                > >
                                                > > > the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same
                                                > >
                                                > > > kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > It's important to actually run a test
                                                > >
                                                > > > and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter
                                                > >
                                                > > > is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might
                                                > >
                                                > > > give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather
                                                > >
                                                > > > than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to
                                                > >
                                                > > > maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day
                                                > >
                                                > > > when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take
                                                > >
                                                > > > the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same
                                                > >
                                                > > > spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > weight of both riders should be made the same by having the
                                                > >
                                                > > > lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the
                                                > >
                                                > > > heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr
                                                > >
                                                > > > is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to
                                                > >
                                                > > > make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be
                                                > >
                                                > > > seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my
                                                > >
                                                > > > results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than
                                                > >
                                                > > > a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my
                                                > >
                                                > > > Xootr.
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > > John
                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > > >
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                                                > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                                > >
                                                > > > removed]
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                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > NYCKickScooters- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
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                                                >
                                              • Michael Y. Knackerson
                                                John,I am no Sheldon and weigh about the same as you, so your theory won t work with me; sorry. Remember, when I tested all of these scooters, I didn t change
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 29, 2010
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                                                  John,

                                                  I am no Sheldon and weigh about the same as you, so your theory won't work with me; sorry.

                                                  Remember, when I tested all of these scooters, I didn't change my weight and the urethane composition/durometer didn't change while I was riding them all and the wind was the only real variable, but IMHO, not enough to make a difference.  The air drag of my body mass was the same, regardless of what scooter I rode.

                                                  What I want to do next is to put Xootr wheels onto an A5 and see how far it rolls then!  Now, that should be interesting!  Unfortunately, one can't put A5 wheels onto a Xootr due to the diameter difference; it just won't fit.  Darn!

                                                  From all my testing, it seems that I was the only one that tested for large distances, ranging from 500 to 900 feet.  I think that when the test is on a larger scale, the resulting data spread will be more pronounced and apparent.  Karl wrote that he tested for 47 meters (about 150 ft) but I don't know if that was on a slope or flat surface.  Also, in your original email, you wrote, "I have noticed that the A5 rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr", so what exact distances did you measure and what does 22-36% actually represent?  Also, what does, "farther from the bottom of a hill" mean?  Were you going uphill?  Did you mean to write, "farther TO the bottom of a hill"?  Please clarify.

                                                  That's it for now,

                                                  Mikey


                                                  --- On Mon, 3/29/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:

                                                  From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                                                  Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                  To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 9:22 AM

                                                   

                                                  Mikey,

                                                  Thank you! Your results are fascinating. This shows that it's important to actually test rather than rely on subjective impressions. Wow - even the Knowped beat the Razor A5 in one of your runs! Who would have known.

                                                  If you don't mind a personal question, may I ask you how much you weigh? I'm close to the maximum weight limit of the A5 myself. By any chance, are you a slim guy, like Sheldon in Big Bang Theory? (I don't know why that image came to my mind). I'm wondering if the Razor A5 might be faster than the Xootr for heavy guys like myself due to the harder wheels on the A5. When I'm riding the Xootr, my weight may be compressing on the soft tires too much, making the contact surface of the tires wide and also abolishing the rebound of the polyurethane. I'm just speculating in an effort to explain the differences in our results.

                                                  John

                                                  --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maknak" <maknak@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > All,
                                                  >
                                                  > Well, I'm getting emails from readers that say they did not get the attachment, so while I work with Dorlene to figure out why the attachment didn't go out, I've decided to post it on a website.
                                                  >
                                                  > You will have to go to the site and zoom to at least 150% to see the image clearly and I've also posted a hyperlink in the lower left corner, so you can download the file directly. Here's the link to the attachment page:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://nihon. homestead. com/kick. html
                                                  >
                                                  > MIkey
                                                  >
                                                  > PS: I just got an email from Dorlene and she apparently set email attachments to store on the YHG websites, so it's probably in the files section there? I dunno, I didn't check, since this posting provides the information previously posted. M
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > All,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a slope, repeatedly, that started at an elevation of about 10 foot above the flat area with a slope that was approximately 200 feet long. In addition, I also did sprint trials to try to measure energy expended and measured in speed for a given distance. The results will speak for themselves, but it is apparent that my scale of testing was significantly greater when it comes to the distances involved, than the amount being reported with rolling values of 20 to 40 feet (micro hills, perhaps?).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In any case, my results were very striking and to some of you, maybe surprising, and for all those free spinning testers out there, don't bother doing that ever again! Yes, I will admit that while I thought originally, that a long free spinning wheel would equate to a longer rolling scooter, I have been rudely awakened to the fact that free spinning has absolutely no correlation to rolling distance!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I don't think that these results are totally conclusive, and I think that more testing could be done to further quantify the rolling resistance characteristics and parameters, but it will have to wait until I can find more time. Aside from scootering for 4 hours in the name of a pet science project, I also spent over 2 hours collating and analyzing the data. I'm also very sore from the sprint trials so I think I will be driving to work tomorrow instead of riding a Xootr.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > So, see the attached Excel file for the gruesome details and if there aren't enough numbers for you OCD people out there, I can help you dream up a few more statistics, if you like :-). Please note that if you have the Digest version of these YHG emails, you will NOT receive the attachment as the digest versions cannot transmit attachments, so email me directly, and I will send you the Excel file, so you can see the results.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Happy scootering,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > MIkey
                                                  > >
                                                  > > PS: I'll eventually get back to all the side questions that writers have mentioned in other postings.... just bear with me, ok? M.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, JV <JV711@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: JV <JV711@>
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                  > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 10:06 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >  
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > John,
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > please dont take my "OCD" comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after a disasterous blind date, in fact.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > the degree of tightness can be quantified with a torque wrench in "lbs per square inch". It would be good testing methodology to document this attribute for comparisons. Also if your frame/mount is at all "bent" this might cause one to have to really ratchet down on a wheel and thus alter rolling resistance/distance , I think? I know I had to chuck a pair of skates after a particularly bad crash bent my frame/wheel mount one time.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Of course I am disappointed my sand theory didn't have more of a dramatic effect on the variables under test : (
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Anyway, hope all you folks did get some scootering in this weekend... weather was great out here on the west coast.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > JV
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 8:04 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Mikey, I did the free-spinning test
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > serve the same function. My free-spinning times are
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > original bearings.)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > John
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Hey all,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > contribute some value added comments to this message
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > thread.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > There is a fundamental difference between free
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > you do this type of testing, one should test the free
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > spin freely. Â Then, once you step on either platform and
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > loaded wheeling condition.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Â Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > average your results. Â Then repeat this test on the other
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheel. Â You may be startled with the results!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > following AVERAGED times:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Razor A5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal! )
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Rear: 45 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Xootr Roma
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Front: 10 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Rear: 11 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Xootr Street
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Front: 20 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Xootr MG
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Rear: 21 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Front: 45 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Rear 27 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > theory should go further over time. This lower rotational
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > every rotation.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > bolt, I got the following times:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > time was 25 seconds.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > tests in my next email. Â
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > It would really be nice if others did their own free
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheeling timed tests and reported their findings. Â The
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > more data the better! You don't need anything but
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat' s case, he might want
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > My final observation - It seems to me that there
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > and that would slow them down. However, when the front
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > way around.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > That's it for now,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Mikey
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > rolling resistance
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Â
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Not sure where you got
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > that I don't normally care about speed or rolling
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > alleged test results. I rode Xootr brand scooters for
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > were, if anything, slightly slower.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > yahoo.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > rolling resistance
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Â
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45%
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > favorable to his product):
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > a smooth concrete floor)."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > Whether or not you normally care about speed and
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > difference, particularly when compared with my results,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > should just send them to him.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > You are correct about the front braking system on the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > effect on rolling resistance.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > John
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Sorry, I hit send by accident. As I was
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > saying: there is NO WAY that Xootr goes 45%
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > farther. And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > slower it goes b/c of the front braking system. I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > don't have that problem with the Razor. I feel bad
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > no question that the Razor is a superior product in just
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > all, durability. Dorlene, if you believe in Karma,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > onto this scooter! ÂÂ
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > I think you're over-thinking this. I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > switched to Razor last year. I think the Razor
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > inch. I'm positive about one thing though: there is
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > NO WAY
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > ...>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > rolling resistance
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > ÂÂ
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Edward,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > confused about why his results are so much different from
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > John
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > John,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Last year, I started a thread almost
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > same conclusion.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > not a dedicated scooter rider.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > more.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > any expectations to test both machines under controlled
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > conditions, and carefully document the results.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > appreciated.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > more efficiently.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > are.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Edward Wong III
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Orlando, FL
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > Viza Kikit Air
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > I would be very curious to know if any
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > members of this board have compared the rolling distance of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > identical conditions and many times, but I always got this
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > same result.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > difference in our results. I wondered about whether the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > efficiency"
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > ks.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > how you tested this and how big the difference was between
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > It's important to actually run a test
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > weight of both riders should be made the same by having the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Xootr.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > > > > > John
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                                                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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                                                  > > > removed]
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                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
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                                                  > >
                                                  > > > NYCKickScooters- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
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                                                • maskedmarvelswat
                                                  Mikey, there goes my theory on rider weight then. By from the bottom of the hill I meant from the point where the downhill portion ends and the flat portion
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 30, 2010
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                                                    Mikey, there goes my theory on rider weight then. By "from the bottom of the hill" I meant "from the point where the downhill portion ends and the flat portion starts". Let me know if there's a better way to say this. English is not my first language, so I'm open to suggestions.

                                                    I don't understand your question about whether Karl tested on a slope or flat surface. To test for rolling distance, I think it's necessary to have a slope followed by a flat surface. If it's all slope, your scooter would never stop. If it's all flat ground, your scooter would never start moving. In my tests, the Xootr Mg rolled an average of 30 feet and the Razor A5 rolled an average of 37 feet (with original bearings) or 41 feet (with Bones Reds bearings).

                                                    I deliberately picked a small hill for testing, because I imagined rolling resistance would have a greater effect when the speeds are low. At higher speeds, drag forces become much more significant than rolling resistance, or so I thought. Your results suggest that I was wrong, because you saw huge differences among the scooters even though your speed was much higher than mine. I didn't measure my maximum speed, but it probably wasn't higher than 6 mph, whereas your speed ranged from 9.4 to 11.6 mph. Maybe the Xootr wheels perform better at higher speeds due to some strange property of the polyurethane material? I'll try to test this.

                                                    John

                                                    --- In NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > John,I am no Sheldon and weigh about the same as you, so your theory won't work with me; sorry.
                                                    > Remember, when I tested all of these scooters, I didn't change my weight and the urethane composition/durometer didn't change while I was riding them all and the wind was the only real variable, but IMHO, not enough to make a difference.  The air drag of my body mass was the same, regardless of what scooter I rode.What I want to do next is to put Xootr wheels onto an A5 and see how far it rolls then!  Now, that should be interesting!  Unfortunately, one can't put A5 wheels onto a Xootr due to the diameter difference; it just won't fit.  Darn!From all my testing, it seems that I was the only one that tested for large distances, ranging from 500 to 900 feet.  I think that when the test is on a larger scale, the resulting data spread will be more pronounced and apparent.  Karl wrote that he tested for 47 meters (about 150 ft) but I don't know if that was on a slope or flat surface.  Also, in your original email, you wrote, "I have noticed that the A5
                                                    > rolls significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill than the Xootr", so what exact distances did you measure and what does 22-36% actually represent?  Also, what does, "farther from the bottom of a hill" mean?  Were you going uphill?  Did you mean to write, "farther TO the bottom of a hill"?  Please clarify. That's it for now,Mikey
                                                    > --- On Mon, 3/29/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@...>
                                                    > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                    > To: NYCKickScooters@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Date: Monday, March 29, 2010, 9:22 AM
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
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                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >  
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Mikey,
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Thank you! Your results are fascinating. This shows that it's important to actually test rather than rely on subjective impressions. Wow - even the Knowped beat the Razor A5 in one of your runs! Who would have known.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > If you don't mind a personal question, may I ask you how much you weigh? I'm close to the maximum weight limit of the A5 myself. By any chance, are you a slim guy, like Sheldon in Big Bang Theory? (I don't know why that image came to my mind). I'm wondering if the Razor A5 might be faster than the Xootr for heavy guys like myself due to the harder wheels on the A5. When I'm riding the Xootr, my weight may be compressing on the soft tires too much, making the contact surface of the tires wide and also abolishing the rebound of the polyurethane. I'm just speculating in an effort to explain the differences in our results.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > John
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "maknak" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > All,
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > Well, I'm getting emails from readers that say they did not get the attachment, so while I work with Dorlene to figure out why the attachment didn't go out, I've decided to post it on a website.
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > You will have to go to the site and zoom to at least 150% to see the image clearly and I've also posted a hyperlink in the lower left corner, so you can download the file directly. Here's the link to the attachment page:
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > http://nihon. homestead. com/kick. html
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > MIkey
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > PS: I just got an email from Dorlene and she apparently set email attachments to store on the YHG websites, so it's probably in the files section there? I dunno, I didn't check, since this posting provides the information previously posted. M
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > All,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > Attached to this email are my results from my scootering tests conducted today, Sunday, 3/28/10. I spent from 11:30 to 3:30 (4 hours) rolling down a slope, repeatedly, that started at an elevation of about 10 foot above the flat area with a slope that was approximately 200 feet long. In addition, I also did sprint trials to try to measure energy expended and measured in speed for a given distance. The results will speak for themselves, but it is apparent that my scale of testing was significantly greater when it comes to the distances involved, than the amount being reported with rolling values of 20 to 40 feet (micro hills, perhaps?).
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > In any case, my results were very striking and to some of you, maybe surprising, and for all those free spinning testers out there, don't bother doing that ever again! Yes, I will admit that while I thought originally, that a long free spinning wheel would equate to a longer rolling scooter, I have been rudely awakened to the fact that free spinning has absolutely no correlation to rolling distance!
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > I don't think that these results are totally conclusive, and I think that more testing could be done to further quantify the rolling resistance characteristics and parameters, but it will have to wait until I can find more time. Aside from scootering for 4 hours in the name of a pet science project, I also spent over 2 hours collating and analyzing the data. I'm also very sore from the sprint trials so I think I will be driving to work tomorrow instead of riding a Xootr.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > So, see the attached Excel file for the gruesome details and if there aren't enough numbers for you OCD people out there, I can help you dream up a few more statistics, if you like :-). Please note that if you have the Digest version of these YHG emails, you will NOT receive the attachment as the digest versions cannot transmit attachments, so email me directly, and I will send you the Excel file, so you can see the results.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > Happy scootering,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > MIkey
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > PS: I'll eventually get back to all the side questions that writers have mentioned in other postings.... just bear with me, ok? M.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, JV <JV711@> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > From: JV <JV711@>
                                                    >
                                                    > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                    >
                                                    > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    >
                                                    > > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 10:06 PM
                                                    >
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                                                    > > > John,
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                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > please dont take my "OCD" comment to harshly I kid a lot and am the general smart-alec type. I certainly have been asked straight out if I was OCD after a disasterous blind date, in fact.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > the degree of tightness can be quantified with a torque wrench in "lbs per square inch". It would be good testing methodology to document this attribute for comparisons. Also if your frame/mount is at all "bent" this might cause one to have to really ratchet down on a wheel and thus alter rolling resistance/distance , I think? I know I had to chuck a pair of skates after a particularly bad crash bent my frame/wheel mount one time.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > Of course I am disappointed my sand theory didn't have more of a dramatic effect on the variables under test : (
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > Anyway, hope all you folks did get some scootering in this weekend... weather was great out here on the west coast.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > JV
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > --- On Sun, 3/28/10, maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com>
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 8:04 PM
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Mikey, I did the free-spinning test
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > on my Xootr Mg while loosening and tightening the axle bolts
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > and I didn't see any difference in the free-spinning times.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > It's possible that my axle bolts were never as tight as
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > yours, because I'm always hesitant to tighten any bolts too
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > much. My front wheel assembly has washers that go between
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the bearings and the fork. The washers touch only on the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > inner ring of the bearings, which is the part of the bearing
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > that does not turn, and prevent the rest of the bearing from
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > rubbing on the inside of the fork. Washers are not needed in
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the rear, because the rear wheel has locking rings which
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > serve the same function. My free-spinning times are
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > currently 17 s at the front (brand-new wheel and bearings)
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > and 20 s at the rear (wheel and bearings with 10 miles on
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > them). (I mentioned 30-35 s in an earlier post, but that was
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > incorrect, those values were for my Razor A5 with the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > original bearings.)
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > John
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > "Michael Y. Knackerson" <maknak@> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Hey all,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > I've resisted jumping in here until I have had a
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > chance to do my own tests, since I have 2 A5's and many more
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xootrs and as an avid user of both designs, I can probably
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > contribute some value added comments to this message
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > thread.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > There is a fundamental difference between free
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheeling and loaded wheeling. The testing done to date has
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > been a loaded wheeling condition, but I think that before
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > you do this type of testing, one should test the free
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheeling condition FIRST. The reason for this is to
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > ascertain that you don't have any anamolous condition with
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the wheel bearing installation before you perform the loaded
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > test. In my experience, I've found that if the bearings are
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > worn out or the torque on the axle bolt is too tight, it
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > clamps down on the bearings and reduces their ability to
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > spin freely. Â Then, once you step on either platform and
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > exert your body weight onto the scooter, you now have a
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > loaded wheeling condition.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > To do a free wheeling test, position the scooter
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > securely so the wheel being tested is spinning free, without
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > contacting anything. Then grasp the wheel firmly and with
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > only one pull, start it spinning as fast as you can.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Â Using a stop watch, record the total time the wheel
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > spins from start to finish, repeat at least 3 times and
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > average your results. Â Then repeat this test on the other
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheel. Â You may be startled with the results!
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > When I did it on a variety of my scooters, I got the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > following AVERAGED times:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Razor A5
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Front: 1 minute 22 seconds (phenomenal! )
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Rear: 45 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Xootr Roma
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Front: 10 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Rear: 11 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Xootr Street
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Front: 20 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Rear: 3 seconds (The bolt must be way too tight!)
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Xootr MG
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Front: 2 seconds (Too tight again)
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Rear: 21 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Goped Knowped (yeah, just for fun, I timed this too)
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Front: 45 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Rear 27 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > It should be noted that during the final 20 seconds of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the Razor, the wheel was barely moving, but still moving. My
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > overall conclusion to the free wheeling test is that the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Razor has a much lower bearing rolling resistance and in
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > theory should go further over time. This lower rotational
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > resistance, supplemented with the 8 inch diameter of the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Razor A5 wheel, as compared to the 7 inch diameter of the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xootr wheel will result in further distance traveled for
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > every rotation.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Btw, when I loosened the bolts of the Xootr MG axle
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > bolt, I got the following times:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > 1/4 turn looser resulted in 12 seconds
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > 1 full turn looser resulted in 29 seconds, but the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheel wobbled as the bolt was loose
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > With the bolt just snugged up to avoid wobble, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > time was 25 seconds.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > The question now is whether the loaded wheel condition
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > of both designs will affect the overall distances traveled,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > specifically after the Xootr wheel bearings are tuned as
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > best they can be. I'll write about my loaded bearing
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > tests in my next email. Â
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > It would really be nice if others did their own free
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheeling timed tests and reported their findings. Â The
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > more data the better! You don't need anything but
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > a watch with a second hand and to manually spin the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheel...... In Maskedmarvelswat' s case, he might want
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > to loosed his axle bolts and try his downhill tests again.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > My final observation - It seems to me that there
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > was some concern about the brakes on the Xootr causing more
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > drag when worn. I concede that when the tire is dirty,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the bearings have probably picked up some dirt and grime,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > and that would slow them down. However, when the front
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > brakes on a Xootr are applied, they cause the shoe and the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheel to wear, thus making the gap between the wheel and the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > brake shoe GREATER. The end result is a reduced
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > potential of the brake dragging on the wheel, not the other
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > way around.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > That's it for now,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Mikey
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > rolling resistance
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 4:42 PM
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
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                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Â
                                                    >
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                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Not sure where you got
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > that I don't normally care about speed or rolling
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > resistance; I definitely care about both.  I guess
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > what I'm saying is that I don't believe Karl Ulrich, or his
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > alleged test results. I rode Xootr brand scooters for
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > two years, had three or four separate ones, and they were
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > not noticeably speedier or more efficient than my
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Razor. My firm, albeit subjective belief, is that they
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > were, if anything, slightly slower.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > <maskedmarvelswat@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > yahoo.com>
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > rolling resistance
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Â
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Thanks for your note, John. Actually, I just noticed I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > misquoted Karl Ulrich. He didn't say the Xootr went 45%
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > farther than the A5, he said it went 80-88% farther in his
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > tests. Here's a direct quote from his email (I'm assuming he
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wouldn't mind me quoting his email because this info is
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > favorable to his product):
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > "The measured rolling resistance of the Razor A5
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > wheels is much higher. One two separate test set ups, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xootr scooters roll almost twice as far as the Razor A5 (47
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > meters vs. 25 meters on asphalt; and 9 meters vs 5 meters on
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > a smooth concrete floor)."
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > Whether or not you normally care about speed and
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > rolling resistance, an 80-88% difference is a huge
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > difference, particularly when compared with my results,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > which were in the opposite direction. Karl offered to take a
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > look at my Xootr and A5 to see what's going on. Maybe I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > should just send them to him.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > You are correct about the front braking system on the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xootr possibly slowing down the scooter when dirty, but I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > already pulled out the front brake pad and there was no
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > effect on rolling resistance.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > I, too, love the guys at Xootr. They have the best
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > customer service I've ever encountered in my life.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > John
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, John
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Sorry, I hit send by accident.ÃÆ'‚Â As I was
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > saying: there is NO WAYÃÆ'‚Â that Xootr goes 45%
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > farther.ÃÆ'‚Â And the dirtier the Xootr wheels get, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > slower it goes b/c of the front braking system.ÃÆ'‚Â I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > don't have that problem with the Razor.ÃÆ'‚Â I feel bad
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > about it b/c I love the guys at Xootr, but to me, if the two
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > scooters were exactly the same amount of money, there'd be
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > no question that the Razor is a superior product in just
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > about every meaningful sense, including, speed, ease of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > gliding, handling, braking, ease of folding and, most of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > all, durability.ÃÆ'‚Â Dorlene, if you believe in Karma,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > I think great thoughts about you all the time for turning me
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > onto this scooter!ÃÆ'‚Â ÃÆ'‚Â
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, John Margiotta
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > <swimminglaps@ ...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > From: John Margiotta <swimminglaps@ ...>
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Subject: Re: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Razor A5 rolling resistance
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > I think you're over-thinking this.ÃÆ'‚Â I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > have a bunch of different Xootr's over the years, and then I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > switched to Razor last year.ÃÆ'‚Â I think the Razor
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > glides better and farther, but I've never measured to the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > inch.ÃÆ'‚Â I'm positive about one thing though: there is
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > NO WAY
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/24/10, maskedmarvelswat
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > <maskedmarvelswat@ ...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > From: maskedmarvelswat <maskedmarvelswat@
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > ...>
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Subject: [NYCKickScooters] Re: Xootr vs. Razor A5
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > rolling resistance
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > To: NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚Â
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Edward,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Thanks for your comment. Do you remember where
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > you read the review that was not on Amazon? Could you
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > provide a link, please? I know about two reviews on this
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > topic on Amazon. One was by me (kj55552009) , so it was not
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > independent data. The second one was by Wally Viray, who
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > didn't actually test the two scooters, he just expressed his
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > subjective feeling that the A5 rolls better than the Xootr.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > Karl Ulrich is a genius and, based on his emails,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > a really nice guy too, which is an unusual combination. You
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > can read more about him here: http://opimweb. wharton.upenn.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > edu/people/ faculty.cfm? id=13
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > I have no reason to doubt his results. I'm just
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > confused about why his results are so much different from
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > mine. How is it possible my A5 outrolls the Xootr by 22-36%,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > but in his tests the Xootr outrolls the A5 by 45%? Both of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > these differences are unbelievably large for kick scooters,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > where the only moving parts are the wheels. There must be
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > some reason. Maybe the quality of the Xootr wheels is highly
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > variable or there is something wrong with my Xootr.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > John
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > W" <edwong3@ > wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > John,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Last year, I started a thread almost
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > identical to the topic you're asking about. Dorlene and a
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > couple of others confirmed that the A5 does indeed seem to
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > outroll the Xootr. In addition, I've read a couple of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > reviews, one of them on Amazon's website that points to the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > same conclusion.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Now a disclaimer. I USED to own a Xootr
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Street several years ago but don't own an A5. Don't ask me
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > why I can't seem to "get off the fence", and get one in
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > spite of the low price. I guess I can't justify it as I am
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > not a dedicated scooter rider.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > I hardly ride my present scooter which is a
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Viza Kikit Air which has a very smooth glide due to the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > pneumatic tires but is no match to either of the two scooter
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > discussed here in terms of rolling efficiency. Sometimes I
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > think to myself that if I bought a high performance scooter
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > like another Xootr, or the A5, that I might ride a lot
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > more.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > But anyway, just from the anecdotal
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > evidence, and testimonials, I am not surprised that you
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > found your A5 roll more efficiently, but I do find Ulrich's
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > opposite conclusion in his test to be suspect.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Maybe this is one of those experiments that
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > should be "double blinded". Just put people who don't have
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > any expectations to test both machines under controlled
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > conditions, and carefully document the results.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > All this said, I do agree that the Xootr has
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > a more modern, hi tech appearance, and the larger deck
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > (Cruz, Street, and MG models) is something to be
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > appreciated.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Maybe if you could find another Xootr rider,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > you can compare the rolling distances of the two, and work
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > from there. I hope you find that it's not that your Xootr is
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > slower than it should be, but it's just that the A5 glides
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > more efficiently.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > I say enjoy both machines for what they
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > are.
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                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Edward Wong III
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Orlando, FL
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > Viza Kikit Air
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                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > --- In NYCKickScooters@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > "maskedmarvelswat" <maskedmarvelswat@ > wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I would be very curious to know if any
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > members of this board have compared the rolling distance of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > a Xootr to that of a Razor A5.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I own both a Xootr Mg ($220) and Razor
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > A5 Lux ($70). I really like the looks of the Xootr, but to
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > my disappointment, I have noticed that the A5 rolls
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > significantly farther (22-36%) from the bottom of a hill
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > than the Xootr. I tested this very carefully, under
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > identical conditions and many times, but I always got this
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > same result.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I wrote to Steve at Xootr, who said
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > that's impossible, and that a Xootr will out-roll any Razor.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > I asked him to hand-pick the best new wheels he can find at
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the Xootr factory and send them to me, which he was kind
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > enough to do. I installed the new wheels on my Xootr Mg, but
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > again the A5 rolled much farther than the Xootr.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I then wrote to Karl Ulrich, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > co-inventor of Xootr, and told him about my findings. He,
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > too, was incredulous. He said he would order a Razor A5 and
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > test it, which he did. He emailed me that in his tests, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xootr rolled almost two times as far as the Razor A5.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > After hearing about Karl Ulrich's
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > results, I tried to think about any possible reasons for the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > difference in our results. I wondered about whether the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > front brake pad on my Xootr might be rubbing on the wheel
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > under load. So I pulled out the front brake pad from the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xoort and tested the scooters, but once again the A5
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > out-rolled the Xootr by a significant margin.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I know that Dorlene has also ranked the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > A5 #1 and the Xootr #2 in the category of "relative
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > efficiency"
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > http://www.shawguid es.com/pages/
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > ks.html
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Dorlene, could you post the details of
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > how you tested this and how big the difference was between
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the two scooters, please? All Xootr models have the same
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > kind of wheels so the model you tested shouldn't matter.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > It's important to actually run a test
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > and not to rely on your subjective feeling on which scooter
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > is faster. The A5 is less stable than the Xootr and might
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > give a false sense of higher speed because of that.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > For testing, pick a gentle hill rather
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > than a steep hill. You want to test at a low speed to
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > maximize the effect of rolling resistance. Also pick a day
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > when there is no wind. Run each scooter 3-5 times and take
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > the average distance. Make sure you start at the exact same
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > spot on the top of the hill. If you have two riders, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > weight of both riders should be made the same by having the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > lighter rider wear a backpack. All things being equal, the
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > heavier rider will go faster downhill.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > My goal is to figure out why my Xootr
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > is slower than my Razor A5 and then try to fix the Xootr to
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > make it faster. I'm an older guy and I would much rather be
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > seen riding the classy Xootr. If it turns out that my
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > results are unique and everybody else's Xootr is faster than
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > a Razor A5, that means there is something wrong with my
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Xootr.
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
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                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > > > > > John
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                                    >
                                                    > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > > >
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                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > > > > NYCKickScooters- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
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