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something i just gotta say

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  • ryoushi_xanga
    So avariel and I recently started posting our stories on ff.net and they have a stats counter. At first, it was like Oh cool - now I can track how many
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
      So avariel and I recently started posting our stories on ff.net and
      they have a stats counter. At first, it was like "Oh cool - now I can
      track how many people are reading!" Handy tool right?

      Except now I'm just getting frustrated by the serious lack of
      reviews/critiques etc. I know there are people reading it but their
      silence is like a brick wall - I am going to assume the readers that
      have made it past chapters 1 or 2 like it well enough but why? And
      the readers who never made it past chapter 1, why?

      Are our chapters too long? Are we too wordy? Is it because it
      features two of the less popular characters from the NWN 2 games? Is
      the Sand and Torio pairing one that just doesn't make sense to most
      people? Are we too light/dark/smutty/violent? Is it because our
      rating is mature and that scares people off? Is it because our story
      moves slower than the average fan fic? (We wanted more of a fantasy
      novel series feel than a series of quickies) Or are people just
      inherently lazy?

      In my quest to understand this phenomenon I had posted a poll asking
      why people leave a review. The poll was centered around three
      "motivations" : the work itself (aka was the work good/bad?), the
      relationship between the author and the reader (aka the author has
      reviewed the reader's work in the past so the favor is returned) and
      the reader (aka is the reader busy when a chapter is posted?).

      Not surprisingly, a critique is dependent on all these, with the main
      variables being the characters involved and character development in
      the story, the emotional quality of the work and the reader's time
      availability. The relationship between reader and author did play a
      role which doesn't surprise me since sociologists like Gouldner (1960)
      and archeologists like Leakey (1978) have stressed society's emphasis
      on the reciprocity rule (you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours).

      I know the lack of reviews annoys other writers that I have spoken to.
      At least with movies you get critics and reviewers, or you can look
      at weekly sales, or when award season rolls around you can have some
      feedback (whether that feedback is a true measure of 'value' and
      'worth' is an entirely different argument) - but with fan fiction
      there is no measuring stick that is comparable. There is no "Oscars"
      or "Grammys" for fan fic, just fans.

      I know people are shy. Or busy. But this is my simple request on
      behalf of all fan fic writers out there: please - if you like a work
      just drop the author a line. Just one - you don't have to provide an
      in-depth review of every chapter or every paragraph - but maybe a
      simple note saying "thank you". Thank you for the time you put into
      writing (cause it does take time and we're all doing it for free),
      thank you for the effort and thank you for the entertainment.

      Otherwise it is like writing in a vacuum and not motivating or
      inspiring in the least!

      I'm done with my rant :P
    • rhia474
      I am so with you there. One of the reasons I enjoy this group here is because people give good feedback, and while I certainly am amazed by the hit counter s
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
        I am so with you there. One of the reasons I enjoy this group here is
        because people give good feedback, and while I certainly am amazed by
        the hit counter's number my little fic generated at ff. net, I am in
        the same boots. Just dropping a 'hello, I read it, good going'
        or 'hello, I read in but I think you are crazy' would be useful.

        Personally, I haven't gotten to read yours yet, to tell the truth,
        but writing, working, housechores and playing MotB can only allow for
        slow digestion of others'creative work. :-) In other words, one at a
        time. I am getting there, though, and once done, reviews shall be
        done...



        --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "ryoushi_xanga" <foxxfyre@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > So avariel and I recently started posting our stories on ff.net and
        > they have a stats counter. At first, it was like "Oh cool - now I
        can
        > track how many people are reading!" Handy tool right?
        >
        > Except now I'm just getting frustrated by the serious lack of
        > reviews/critiques etc. I know there are people reading it but their
        > silence is like a brick wall - I am going to assume the readers that
        > have made it past chapters 1 or 2 like it well enough but why? And
        > the readers who never made it past chapter 1, why?
        >
        > Are our chapters too long? Are we too wordy? Is it because it
        > features two of the less popular characters from the NWN 2 games? Is
        > the Sand and Torio pairing one that just doesn't make sense to most
        > people? Are we too light/dark/smutty/violent? Is it because our
        > rating is mature and that scares people off? Is it because our
        story
        > moves slower than the average fan fic? (We wanted more of a fantasy
        > novel series feel than a series of quickies) Or are people just
        > inherently lazy?
        >
        > In my quest to understand this phenomenon I had posted a poll asking
        > why people leave a review. The poll was centered around three
        > "motivations" : the work itself (aka was the work good/bad?), the
        > relationship between the author and the reader (aka the author has
        > reviewed the reader's work in the past so the favor is returned) and
        > the reader (aka is the reader busy when a chapter is posted?).
        >
        > Not surprisingly, a critique is dependent on all these, with the
        main
        > variables being the characters involved and character development in
        > the story, the emotional quality of the work and the reader's time
        > availability. The relationship between reader and author did play a
        > role which doesn't surprise me since sociologists like Gouldner
        (1960)
        > and archeologists like Leakey (1978) have stressed society's
        emphasis
        > on the reciprocity rule (you scratch my back and I'll scratch
        yours).
        >
        > I know the lack of reviews annoys other writers that I have spoken
        to.
        > At least with movies you get critics and reviewers, or you can look
        > at weekly sales, or when award season rolls around you can have some
        > feedback (whether that feedback is a true measure of 'value' and
        > 'worth' is an entirely different argument) - but with fan fiction
        > there is no measuring stick that is comparable. There is
        no "Oscars"
        > or "Grammys" for fan fic, just fans.
        >
        > I know people are shy. Or busy. But this is my simple request on
        > behalf of all fan fic writers out there: please - if you like a work
        > just drop the author a line. Just one - you don't have to provide an
        > in-depth review of every chapter or every paragraph - but maybe a
        > simple note saying "thank you". Thank you for the time you put into
        > writing (cause it does take time and we're all doing it for free),
        > thank you for the effort and thank you for the entertainment.
        >
        > Otherwise it is like writing in a vacuum and not motivating or
        > inspiring in the least!
        >
        > I'm done with my rant :P
        >
      • Mark Sherstone
        Know the feeling! lol I m in exactly the same boat. I ve given up at looking at how many hits my fic has been getting as it s pretty dammed depressing if I do.
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
          Know the feeling! lol I'm in exactly the same boat.
          I've given up at looking at how many hits my fic has been getting as it's
          pretty dammed depressing if I do. Though I'm notorious for not reviewing
          stuff I read so I can't say too much ;) I've had 29 reviews and something
          like 6000 hits. Am I missing something? ;)

          HUGS
          Mark
        • Donna
          I do try to leave a comment on every story I read, just so the author knows that someone is interested in the story. I don t have alot of spare time right now
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
            I do try to leave a comment on every story I read, just so the author
            knows that someone is interested in the story. I don't have alot of
            spare time right now to read or write fanfic. Even though I have
            several stories in the works, I have only really worked on and posted
            two of them because I know that people are reading them. I just don't
            have the time to do it all. I think that is the way it is for most
            authors, we work on those stories that people have shown interest in.

            It is hard for anyone to create in a vacuum. Without feedback,
            whether good or bad, many authors stop writing. So, to any who are
            reading but not commenting, just drop a quick line to the author and
            let them know you are interested in what they are writing.
          • orthodoxia69
            That is the sad way of ff.net, especially when it comes to NWN section. Unless it s Bishop and/or Valen, preferably shirtless, then it s not worth
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
              That is the sad way of ff.net, especially when it comes to NWN
              section. Unless it's Bishop and/or Valen, preferably shirtless, then
              it's not worth their(potential readers) time to 'squeee' & drool over
              it. I've got 16 chapters up there and 10 reviews that mostly come from
              the same person, and over 4000 hits.

              Now, I don't want to sound ungrateful but I would really like to know
              whether my writing has improved or not, whether the characters are
              written well or not or, in the end, something. Like many here I enjoy
              writing stories and tell and share the story of my KC and I would like
              to write more but if people don't enjoy my writing style or my
              characters I'd like that to be told and make improvement where possible.

              But if the sole lack of reviews is the fact that the only appearance
              Bishop would make in my story is as a dead blotched bloody spot in the
              floor and in now way as a shirtless sex god then perhaps I am better
              off not sharing it at all.
            • colenda_the_gerundive
              It s a small point, but if your chapters are rated Mature that does have the potential to limit the size of your readership, unless you re on a large number
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                It's a small point, but if your chapters are rated "Mature" that does
                have the potential to limit the size of your readership, unless you're
                on a large number of 'favourite story' lists. Simply because Mature
                fics don't appear on the main update section, from what I can see. Case
                in point: I wrote two one-shots for the HP fandom. Both are likely to
                appeal to exactly the same audience. And I don't think the quality is
                hugely different. But the first story has nine reviews, the second has
                only one. Why? I initially put up the second one with a mature rating,
                and so no one knew it was there.
              • kaanamoonshadow
                I can easily understand how frustrating it must be to write a story and post it somewhere and then get no feedback at all. It really helps to get better,
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                  I can easily understand how frustrating it must be to write a story
                  and post it somewhere and then get no feedback at all. It really helps
                  to get better, especially if the reviewer points out all the little
                  things that he/she didn't like.

                  That's why I leave a feedback to every chapter that I've read. I don't
                  think that it's always constructive, though, but at least it's a sign
                  that I've read it. ;P

                  My problem (and I think that many readers share that problem with me)
                  is mainly a time problem. Because I want to leave a review every time,
                  no matter whether it's a piece of art or writing, I can only follow a
                  few stories at once, and even there I'm awfully slow on the uptake...
                  and that frustrates me as well. :(

                  So I hope that writers can be a little more patient with their readers
                  as well.

                  Another thing at ff.net is that some people don't accept reviews from
                  persons without a ff.net account. Sometimes I wanted to leave a review
                  there and simply couldn't, because I have none, so who knows - maybe
                  more readers have that problem, though I'll admit that I fear most
                  people just like to read stories but are a bit lazy when it comes down
                  to commenting.

                  But as a declared Bishopette and writer of various Bishop fanfics (in
                  which, most of the time, he leaves his shirt on ;P), I just want to
                  add that it's not fair to condemn us/the readers right away.

                  There are a lot of stories that I really like that do not center
                  around that character, and even more that feature him that I DON'T
                  like, no matter whether he gets out of his shirt or not, so I don't
                  think it's the case that only Bishop or Valen stories get their fair
                  share of attention.

                  *wave*

                  Kaana



                  --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxia69" <orthodoxia69@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > That is the sad way of ff.net, especially when it comes to NWN
                  > section. Unless it's Bishop and/or Valen, preferably shirtless, then
                  > it's not worth their(potential readers) time to 'squeee' & drool over
                  > it. I've got 16 chapters up there and 10 reviews that mostly come from
                  > the same person, and over 4000 hits.
                  >
                  > Now, I don't want to sound ungrateful but I would really like to know
                  > whether my writing has improved or not, whether the characters are
                  > written well or not or, in the end, something. Like many here I enjoy
                  > writing stories and tell and share the story of my KC and I would like
                  > to write more but if people don't enjoy my writing style or my
                  > characters I'd like that to be told and make improvement where
                  possible.
                  >
                  > But if the sole lack of reviews is the fact that the only appearance
                  > Bishop would make in my story is as a dead blotched bloody spot in the
                  > floor and in now way as a shirtless sex god then perhaps I am better
                  > off not sharing it at all.
                  >
                • jette_fuxfell
                  Arhg, don t you just hate it? Wrote a huge comment, wanted to post it, accidently touched a key on my keyboard – and everything gone *waaaaaahhh* Ok, I ll
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                    Arhg, don't you just hate it? Wrote a huge comment, wanted to post
                    it, accidently touched a key on my keyboard – and everything gone
                    *waaaaaahhh*

                    Ok, I'll try to rewrite it, but maybe a bit shorter, lol.

                    I know what you're talking about. I often wondered why your story
                    does not get more reviews, because it's intriguing and very well
                    written. It clearly deserves a lot of attention.

                    It's true what you say: If you review other writer's stories, they
                    review yours. Don't know if it is "I scratch your back, you scratch
                    mine", or if leaving a comment just catches the other's attention
                    and makes them notice you and your story. One thing is sure: Non-
                    writers certainly don't leave a lot of feedback. Not here, not on
                    ff.net. Be that a Bishop or whatever fanfiction.

                    I remember, a long time ago, when I was reading a lot of Buffy
                    fanfiction. I was not writing myself then – and I never left a
                    review. Not even for the stories I totally loved. I feel sorry for
                    that now, but I just did not get what reviews mean for the author.
                    And I was too shy. Not too lazy, too shy.

                    I guess that goes for a lot of people who read fanfiction, but don't
                    write themselves. I know of at least one other who reads a lot,
                    loves the stories, but never leaves feedback. Because she is too
                    shy.

                    Well, I've lived and I've learned, and now, when I read something, I
                    leave feedback. I don't read as much as I'd like, but my time is
                    limited, and so I picked a couple of stories I like and stick to
                    them, and even on those I'm sadly behind. And I know I miss a lot of
                    wonderful stories, but what can you do? There are so many of them,
                    you can't read them all.

                    Long story short: Don't be discouraged. Even if they don't leave
                    feedback, people coming back to read means they like it.

                    I know I do :)


                    --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "ryoushi_xanga" <foxxfyre@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > So avariel and I recently started posting our stories on ff.net and
                    > they have a stats counter. At first, it was like "Oh cool - now I
                    can
                    > track how many people are reading!" Handy tool right?
                    >
                    > Except now I'm just getting frustrated by the serious lack of
                    > reviews/critiques etc. I know there are people reading it but
                    their
                    > silence is like a brick wall - I am going to assume the readers
                    that
                    > have made it past chapters 1 or 2 like it well enough but why? And
                    > the readers who never made it past chapter 1, why?
                    >
                    > Are our chapters too long? Are we too wordy? Is it because it
                    > features two of the less popular characters from the NWN 2 games?
                    Is
                    > the Sand and Torio pairing one that just doesn't make sense to most
                    > people? Are we too light/dark/smutty/violent? Is it because our
                    > rating is mature and that scares people off? Is it because our
                    story
                    > moves slower than the average fan fic? (We wanted more of a fantasy
                    > novel series feel than a series of quickies) Or are people just
                    > inherently lazy?
                    >
                    > In my quest to understand this phenomenon I had posted a poll
                    asking
                    > why people leave a review. The poll was centered around three
                    > "motivations" : the work itself (aka was the work good/bad?), the
                    > relationship between the author and the reader (aka the author has
                    > reviewed the reader's work in the past so the favor is returned)
                    and
                    > the reader (aka is the reader busy when a chapter is posted?).
                    >
                    > Not surprisingly, a critique is dependent on all these, with the
                    main
                    > variables being the characters involved and character development
                    in
                    > the story, the emotional quality of the work and the reader's time
                    > availability. The relationship between reader and author did play
                    a
                    > role which doesn't surprise me since sociologists like Gouldner
                    (1960)
                    > and archeologists like Leakey (1978) have stressed society's
                    emphasis
                    > on the reciprocity rule (you scratch my back and I'll scratch
                    yours).
                    >
                    > I know the lack of reviews annoys other writers that I have spoken
                    to.
                    > At least with movies you get critics and reviewers, or you can
                    look
                    > at weekly sales, or when award season rolls around you can have
                    some
                    > feedback (whether that feedback is a true measure of 'value' and
                    > 'worth' is an entirely different argument) - but with fan fiction
                    > there is no measuring stick that is comparable. There is
                    no "Oscars"
                    > or "Grammys" for fan fic, just fans.
                    >
                    > I know people are shy. Or busy. But this is my simple request on
                    > behalf of all fan fic writers out there: please - if you like a
                    work
                    > just drop the author a line. Just one - you don't have to provide
                    an
                    > in-depth review of every chapter or every paragraph - but maybe a
                    > simple note saying "thank you". Thank you for the time you put
                    into
                    > writing (cause it does take time and we're all doing it for free),
                    > thank you for the effort and thank you for the entertainment.
                    >
                    > Otherwise it is like writing in a vacuum and not motivating or
                    > inspiring in the least!
                    >
                    > I'm done with my rant :P
                    >
                  • colenda_the_gerundive
                    And a bit more to clarify - these two stories have approximately the same number of hits. I think a place on the update NWN2 page at the Pit does result in
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                      And a bit more to clarify - these two stories have approximately the
                      same number of hits. I think a place on the update NWN2 page at the Pit
                      does result in more reviews - because that makes it obvious to readers
                      that a chapter is brand new, and its author is still interested in what
                      people have to say about it.


                      --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                      <colenda_the_gerundive@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It's a small point, but if your chapters are rated "Mature" that does
                      > have the potential to limit the size of your readership, unless
                      you're
                      > on a large number of 'favourite story' lists. Simply because Mature
                      > fics don't appear on the main update section, from what I can see.
                      Case
                      > in point: I wrote two one-shots for the HP fandom. Both are likely to
                      > appeal to exactly the same audience. And I don't think the quality is
                      > hugely different. But the first story has nine reviews, the second
                      has
                      > only one. Why? I initially put up the second one with a mature
                      rating,
                      > and so no one knew it was there.
                      >
                    • Donna
                      I agree with the fact that the lack of reviews has less to do with who the fic is about and more about a time issue. At least for those who do want to leave
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                        I agree with the fact that the lack of reviews has less to do with who
                        the fic is about and more about a time issue. At least for those who
                        do want to leave comments about everything they read.

                        I also think that the rating does affect what some poeple read.
                        Still, the lack of comments is noticeable. I find it hard to believe
                        that with over 400 members in this group that only a handful are
                        reading the stories. However, I have only seen comments from the same
                        handful of people over and over again. So I can see how some writers
                        might get frustrated and stop writing.

                        I think it would be nice to hear more from those out there who are
                        reading but not saying anything to the authors. They don't have to
                        comment on every chapter, but just let the author know there is
                        interest in what they write.


                        --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "kaanamoonshadow"
                        <kaanamoonshadow@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I can easily understand how frustrating it must be to write a story
                        > and post it somewhere and then get no feedback at all. It really helps
                        > to get better, especially if the reviewer points out all the little
                        > things that he/she didn't like.
                        >
                        > That's why I leave a feedback to every chapter that I've read. I don't
                        > think that it's always constructive, though, but at least it's a sign
                        > that I've read it. ;P
                        >
                        > My problem (and I think that many readers share that problem with me)
                        > is mainly a time problem. Because I want to leave a review every time,
                        > no matter whether it's a piece of art or writing, I can only follow a
                        > few stories at once, and even there I'm awfully slow on the uptake...
                        > and that frustrates me as well. :(
                        >
                        > So I hope that writers can be a little more patient with their readers
                        > as well.
                        >
                        > Another thing at ff.net is that some people don't accept reviews from
                        > persons without a ff.net account. Sometimes I wanted to leave a review
                        > there and simply couldn't, because I have none, so who knows - maybe
                        > more readers have that problem, though I'll admit that I fear most
                        > people just like to read stories but are a bit lazy when it comes down
                        > to commenting.
                        >
                        > But as a declared Bishopette and writer of various Bishop fanfics (in
                        > which, most of the time, he leaves his shirt on ;P), I just want to
                        > add that it's not fair to condemn us/the readers right away.
                        >
                        > There are a lot of stories that I really like that do not center
                        > around that character, and even more that feature him that I DON'T
                        > like, no matter whether he gets out of his shirt or not, so I don't
                        > think it's the case that only Bishop or Valen stories get their fair
                        > share of attention.
                        >
                        > *wave*
                        >
                        > Kaana
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "orthodoxia69" <orthodoxia69@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > That is the sad way of ff.net, especially when it comes to NWN
                        > > section. Unless it's Bishop and/or Valen, preferably shirtless, then
                        > > it's not worth their(potential readers) time to 'squeee' & drool over
                        > > it. I've got 16 chapters up there and 10 reviews that mostly come from
                        > > the same person, and over 4000 hits.
                        > >
                        > > Now, I don't want to sound ungrateful but I would really like to know
                        > > whether my writing has improved or not, whether the characters are
                        > > written well or not or, in the end, something. Like many here I enjoy
                        > > writing stories and tell and share the story of my KC and I would like
                        > > to write more but if people don't enjoy my writing style or my
                        > > characters I'd like that to be told and make improvement where
                        > possible.
                        > >
                        > > But if the sole lack of reviews is the fact that the only appearance
                        > > Bishop would make in my story is as a dead blotched bloody spot in the
                        > > floor and in now way as a shirtless sex god then perhaps I am better
                        > > off not sharing it at all.
                        > >
                        >
                      • orthodoxia69
                        I ll have to agree with you on the lazy part because guilty as charged, I am for the most part like that and it shames me to admit it. I apologize if I sounded
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                          I'll have to agree with you on the lazy part because guilty as
                          charged, I am for the most part like that and it shames me to admit it.

                          I apologize if I sounded like I was attacking Bishop lovers. I know
                          that there are good stories with him out there. He is a greatly
                          written character, a greatly written character I hate but the writers
                          did a great job with him. My point was simply that he has a large
                          fanbase and that as such stories centering around him (shirtless or
                          not ;P) will get attention be they well written or not.

                          Back to the reviewing. Reviewing can be problematic for the readers as
                          well. I personally don't know what to say to the author even if I
                          liked the story. A simple "great story, love it" can boost confidence
                          but will not help the author improve. Some people simply can't find
                          right words to describe what they liked or didn't.


                          --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "kaanamoonshadow"
                          <kaanamoonshadow@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I can easily understand how frustrating it must be to write a story
                          > and post it somewhere and then get no feedback at all. It really helps
                          > to get better, especially if the reviewer points out all the little
                          > things that he/she didn't like.
                          >
                          > That's why I leave a feedback to every chapter that I've read. I don't
                          > think that it's always constructive, though, but at least it's a sign
                          > that I've read it. ;P
                          >
                          > My problem (and I think that many readers share that problem with me)
                          > is mainly a time problem. Because I want to leave a review every time,
                          > no matter whether it's a piece of art or writing, I can only follow a
                          > few stories at once, and even there I'm awfully slow on the uptake...
                          > and that frustrates me as well. :(
                          >
                          > So I hope that writers can be a little more patient with their readers
                          > as well.
                          >
                          > Another thing at ff.net is that some people don't accept reviews from
                          > persons without a ff.net account. Sometimes I wanted to leave a review
                          > there and simply couldn't, because I have none, so who knows - maybe
                          > more readers have that problem, though I'll admit that I fear most
                          > people just like to read stories but are a bit lazy when it comes down
                          > to commenting.
                          >
                          > But as a declared Bishopette and writer of various Bishop fanfics (in
                          > which, most of the time, he leaves his shirt on ;P), I just want to
                          > add that it's not fair to condemn us/the readers right away.
                          >
                          > There are a lot of stories that I really like that do not center
                          > around that character, and even more that feature him that I DON'T
                          > like, no matter whether he gets out of his shirt or not, so I don't
                          > think it's the case that only Bishop or Valen stories get their fair
                          > share of attention.
                          >
                          > *wave*
                          >
                          > Kaana
                          >
                        • Maggie
                          I have to agree, Ryoshi. Since putting my story up at FF.net I can see that it s being read every day and all the way through, but I ve had few reviews. There
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                            I have to agree, Ryoshi. Since putting my story up at FF.net I can see
                            that it's being read every day and all the way through, but I've had
                            few reviews. There was a time when the only feedback I got was a
                            private email from someone who thought I was making Bishop too dark
                            and evil, and I almost quit because of it. One of my gran's favorite
                            expressions was "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything
                            at all," and I wonder if that's what's holding people back. But I
                            agree, you need not give a detailed analysis. A simple "hey, I like
                            your story" is enough. And if you are bothered by something or see a
                            way of improving it but you don't want to put it on the public list,
                            use an email, just as long as it's constructive criticism. It helps to
                            start with what works, or what you like, then suggest improvements.

                            Just my two coppers.
                          • ryoushi_xanga
                            Yeah I only just recently learned about the M rating screen at ff.net. Still - there s no way my work would EVER pass as anything but M so *shrug* just gotta
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                              Yeah I only just recently learned about the M rating screen at ff.net.
                              Still - there's no way my work would EVER pass as anything but M so
                              *shrug* just gotta deal LOL. You can't make porn and hope it gets
                              shown at the local family friendly theatre LOL. I've made the
                              executive decision that I'm not going to change my plot and writing
                              to try to get more reviews so I know I'm also dealing with the
                              backlash from having an M fic.

                              But yeah - I remember asking before for the number of hits/review
                              ratio from a few author and I think it's like less than 5% of hits
                              will result in a review. The number might even be less than 1%.

                              --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                              <colenda_the_gerundive@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > And a bit more to clarify - these two stories have approximately the
                              > same number of hits. I think a place on the update NWN2 page at the Pit
                              > does result in more reviews - because that makes it obvious to readers
                              > that a chapter is brand new, and its author is still interested in what
                              > people have to say about it.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                              > <colenda_the_gerundive@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > It's a small point, but if your chapters are rated "Mature" that does
                              > > have the potential to limit the size of your readership, unless
                              > you're
                              > > on a large number of 'favourite story' lists. Simply because Mature
                              > > fics don't appear on the main update section, from what I can see.
                              > Case
                              > > in point: I wrote two one-shots for the HP fandom. Both are likely to
                              > > appeal to exactly the same audience. And I don't think the quality is
                              > > hugely different. But the first story has nine reviews, the second
                              > has
                              > > only one. Why? I initially put up the second one with a mature
                              > rating,
                              > > and so no one knew it was there.
                              > >
                              >
                            • singsoffkey1
                              I have to admit that I think I m doing really great if I get a review per hundred hits. That s just the way it is at ff. The M rating definitely has an
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                                I have to admit that I think I'm doing really great if I get a review
                                per hundred hits. That's just the way it is at ff. The M rating
                                definitely has an impact, as folks have mentioned. And I've noticed
                                that the first chapter always gets at least 2 or 3 times more hits
                                than any others. Sometimes people stop reading at the first
                                paragraph (!) but a lot of times I think people go to Ch 1 first and
                                then navigate to whatever chapter they were last reading. So I
                                wouldn't read too much into what the counter says.

                                I TRY to leave reviews but...sometimes I don't. Here are some of my
                                pitiful excuses. I find reviewing just plain difficult. If I really
                                like a story and want to give an indepth review but don't have
                                time...I don't review, thinking I'll do it later when I can do a
                                proper job. If I really don't like the story, I won't review because
                                I don't like to be mean. If I'm ambivalent about a story, I usually
                                wait for the next chapter or two, in the hopes of figuring out what I
                                do/don't like so I can leave meaningful feedback. And lately, I just
                                haven't been doing much reading at all. *Sigh*

                                One thing that might be affecting your particular story, ryoushi, is
                                that since I've been reading it on the yahoo site, I don't think
                                about going over to ff and reading it there. It's particularly
                                unfair to you since you put so much effort into reviewing other
                                people's work. *Bigger sigh*

                                I'll try to do better. My own work has been so bogged down lately
                                that my reading is bogged down too.

                                sings

                                --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "ryoushi_xanga" <foxxfyre@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Yeah I only just recently learned about the M rating screen at
                                ff.net.
                                > Still - there's no way my work would EVER pass as anything but M so
                                > *shrug* just gotta deal LOL. You can't make porn and hope it gets
                                > shown at the local family friendly theatre LOL. I've made the
                                > executive decision that I'm not going to change my plot and writing
                                > to try to get more reviews so I know I'm also dealing with the
                                > backlash from having an M fic.
                                >
                                > But yeah - I remember asking before for the number of hits/review
                                > ratio from a few author and I think it's like less than 5% of hits
                                > will result in a review. The number might even be less than 1%.
                                >
                                > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                                > <colenda_the_gerundive@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > And a bit more to clarify - these two stories have approximately
                                the
                                > > same number of hits. I think a place on the update NWN2 page at
                                the Pit
                                > > does result in more reviews - because that makes it obvious to
                                readers
                                > > that a chapter is brand new, and its author is still interested
                                in what
                                > > people have to say about it.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                                > > <colenda_the_gerundive@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > It's a small point, but if your chapters are rated "Mature"
                                that does
                                > > > have the potential to limit the size of your readership, unless
                                > > you're
                                > > > on a large number of 'favourite story' lists. Simply because
                                Mature
                                > > > fics don't appear on the main update section, from what I can
                                see.
                                > > Case
                                > > > in point: I wrote two one-shots for the HP fandom. Both are
                                likely to
                                > > > appeal to exactly the same audience. And I don't think the
                                quality is
                                > > > hugely different. But the first story has nine reviews, the
                                second
                                > > has
                                > > > only one. Why? I initially put up the second one with a mature
                                > > rating,
                                > > > and so no one knew it was there.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Maggie
                                I really struggled over either editing my story to make it T, but I finally decided to go with the M rating so I don t have to change it. They don t make it
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                                  I really struggled over either editing my story to make it T, but I
                                  finally decided to go with the M rating so I don't have to change it.
                                  They don't make it easy to find the M rated fics at FF.net though, and
                                  that can affect your readership.
                                • avariel_firehair
                                  Yeah I think everyone feels it. HEro s song has like...14,000 something odd hits, and 10 reviews, LOL. that s less than 10%. I wish I could review more,
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                                    Yeah I think everyone feels it. HEro's song has like...14,000
                                    something odd hits, and 10 reviews, LOL. that's less than 10%.

                                    I wish I could review more, myself, but usually the only reason why I
                                    don't review is because I have little spare time to read :( But when I
                                    do read I hope that I make my reviews not only existant but also good;
                                    I'd rather get a few good reviews than a plethora of one liners: "Liked
                                    it, write more." etc etc.
                                  • Christina
                                    That s my feelings as well. When I do get a chance to read, I would like to leave a review, but leaving in depth reviews takes a lot of time for me for some
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                                      That's my feelings as well. When I do get a chance to read, I would
                                      like to leave a review, but leaving in depth reviews takes a lot of
                                      time for me for some reason. I'm constantly worrying that what I say
                                      would be misconstrued, so the review tends to get severely
                                      shortened. Personally though, although a line such as "I read it and
                                      really liked it", shows you enjoyed it and that people are actually
                                      reading your work, it often leaves the reviewee (is that even a
                                      word?) wondering what about it they liked, what they didn't, were
                                      you could improve as a writer, ect.

                                      Just my 2 cents =)


                                      --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "avariel_firehair"
                                      <avariel_firehair@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yeah I think everyone feels it. HEro's song has like...14,000
                                      > something odd hits, and 10 reviews, LOL. that's less than 10%.
                                      >
                                      > I wish I could review more, myself, but usually the only reason
                                      why I
                                      > don't review is because I have little spare time to read :( But
                                      when I
                                      > do read I hope that I make my reviews not only existant but also
                                      good;
                                      > I'd rather get a few good reviews than a plethora of one
                                      liners: "Liked
                                      > it, write more." etc etc.
                                      >
                                    • ryoushi_xanga
                                      Oh I didn t even think about the possibility that people were logging into Ch 1 and then moving off to whatever chapter they had last left off at. Ok I feel
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                                        Oh I didn't even think about the possibility that people were logging
                                        into Ch 1 and then moving off to whatever chapter they had last left
                                        off at. Ok I feel better and less like my writing is incapable of
                                        drawing people in :P

                                        Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not trying to guilt trip people into
                                        reviewing my stuff and I love to review others because I really do
                                        like giving the feedback (What can I say, I'm opinionated *grins* or
                                        secretly an English major hiding in a Science student's body, who knows)

                                        I just had a moment this morning where I was sitting at my computer
                                        going wtf? why?

                                        --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "singsoffkey1" <sings_off_key@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I have to admit that I think I'm doing really great if I get a review
                                        > per hundred hits. That's just the way it is at ff. The M rating
                                        > definitely has an impact, as folks have mentioned. And I've noticed
                                        > that the first chapter always gets at least 2 or 3 times more hits
                                        > than any others. Sometimes people stop reading at the first
                                        > paragraph (!) but a lot of times I think people go to Ch 1 first and
                                        > then navigate to whatever chapter they were last reading. So I
                                        > wouldn't read too much into what the counter says.
                                        >
                                        > I TRY to leave reviews but...sometimes I don't. Here are some of my
                                        > pitiful excuses. I find reviewing just plain difficult. If I really
                                        > like a story and want to give an indepth review but don't have
                                        > time...I don't review, thinking I'll do it later when I can do a
                                        > proper job. If I really don't like the story, I won't review because
                                        > I don't like to be mean. If I'm ambivalent about a story, I usually
                                        > wait for the next chapter or two, in the hopes of figuring out what I
                                        > do/don't like so I can leave meaningful feedback. And lately, I just
                                        > haven't been doing much reading at all. *Sigh*
                                        >
                                        > One thing that might be affecting your particular story, ryoushi, is
                                        > that since I've been reading it on the yahoo site, I don't think
                                        > about going over to ff and reading it there. It's particularly
                                        > unfair to you since you put so much effort into reviewing other
                                        > people's work. *Bigger sigh*
                                        >
                                        > I'll try to do better. My own work has been so bogged down lately
                                        > that my reading is bogged down too.
                                        >
                                        > sings
                                        >
                                        > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "ryoushi_xanga" <foxxfyre@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Yeah I only just recently learned about the M rating screen at
                                        > ff.net.
                                        > > Still - there's no way my work would EVER pass as anything but M so
                                        > > *shrug* just gotta deal LOL. You can't make porn and hope it gets
                                        > > shown at the local family friendly theatre LOL. I've made the
                                        > > executive decision that I'm not going to change my plot and writing
                                        > > to try to get more reviews so I know I'm also dealing with the
                                        > > backlash from having an M fic.
                                        > >
                                        > > But yeah - I remember asking before for the number of hits/review
                                        > > ratio from a few author and I think it's like less than 5% of hits
                                        > > will result in a review. The number might even be less than 1%.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                                        > > <colenda_the_gerundive@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > And a bit more to clarify - these two stories have approximately
                                        > the
                                        > > > same number of hits. I think a place on the update NWN2 page at
                                        > the Pit
                                        > > > does result in more reviews - because that makes it obvious to
                                        > readers
                                        > > > that a chapter is brand new, and its author is still interested
                                        > in what
                                        > > > people have to say about it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com, "colenda_the_gerundive"
                                        > > > <colenda_the_gerundive@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It's a small point, but if your chapters are rated "Mature"
                                        > that does
                                        > > > > have the potential to limit the size of your readership, unless
                                        > > > you're
                                        > > > > on a large number of 'favourite story' lists. Simply because
                                        > Mature
                                        > > > > fics don't appear on the main update section, from what I can
                                        > see.
                                        > > > Case
                                        > > > > in point: I wrote two one-shots for the HP fandom. Both are
                                        > likely to
                                        > > > > appeal to exactly the same audience. And I don't think the
                                        > quality is
                                        > > > > hugely different. But the first story has nine reviews, the
                                        > second
                                        > > > has
                                        > > > > only one. Why? I initially put up the second one with a mature
                                        > > > rating,
                                        > > > > and so no one knew it was there.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Maid Of Many Names
                                        Ahh, reviews. Gotta love them and hate them. When I first started writing, I wrote for a very rare pairing in a rather small fandom. I think I maybe had 3-4
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
                                          Ahh, reviews.  Gotta love them and hate them.
                                           
                                          When I first started writing, I wrote for a very rare pairing in a rather small fandom.  I think I maybe had 3-4 reviews for a story if I was lucky.  Because of this I'm kinda astonished and over the moon about every review I get.  To me, reviews are simply a nice extra that comes in addition to the pleasure of writing.  Still, I must say that it is great to know if my writing reflects what I want it to and if people 'get' it.  Even better is when I get some good constructive criticism although that is rarer than hen's teeth :)!
                                           
                                          Don't worry too much about the statistics that ff.net produces.  It's notoriously buggy.  They tend to lose data and not report it correctly.  I think what everyone has said, particularly about why the first couple of chapters are viewed more, is very true.  Also, although I don't know for sure, I have also been told that it records every time that your story or a particular chapter is loaded- not how many individuals have read each chapter.  What this means is that every someone's browser crashes, they refresh or go backwards or forwards, or load a bookmark, it is recorded as a hit.  Crazy.
                                           
                                          As for the larger number of people who read a story, compared to those who review, that's pretty normal.  Society may rely in reciprocity, but people also tend to expend the least amount of energy/effort as possible.  Given that the basis of reciprocity is to build up and maintain 'credit' with people in hopes of receiving something back, it's not surprising people don't do this when reviews are essentially anonymous and they aren't likely to benefit.  Yeah, I know, it's kinda a negative explanation of human behavior and I'll be the first to admit it's not necessarily always true.  Reviewing can be its own reward and I personally enjoy doing it but it *does* tend to rely on a person's good nature and willingness to be involved.
                                           
                                          Anyway, reviews are the cherry on the sundae.  They're not worth worrying over.
                                           
                                           Maid Of Many Names.
                                        • Karen McVicker
                                          Chiming in here, a week after the fact... I know there are a lot more people reading than reviewing in any of the fandoms I write in. My best stats are 10% of
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 10, 2008
                                            Chiming in here, a week after the fact...

                                            I know there are a lot more people reading than reviewing in any of the
                                            fandoms I write in. My best stats are 10% of hits in reviews and my worst
                                            stats are about 0.01% of hits in reviews. I just like seeing that people
                                            are reading at all. I get more reviews for my NWN2 fics here at the group
                                            and on the SS threads at the bioware forums than I do at FF.net. Also, the
                                            hits on the first chapter are skewed because most people use that chapter as
                                            a jumping off point to the part of the story they have to catch up on. If a
                                            story is a long one, I tend to save my review until the end and then post
                                            it, rather than post a review of each chapter. I really do need to play
                                            catch up on a lot of stories in this fandom, but I have reviewed the shorter
                                            stories I've read over the past month or so of being back.

                                            Karen


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "ryoushi_xanga" <foxxfyre@...>
                                            To: <NWN2Fanfic@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:54 AM
                                            Subject: [NWN2Fanfic] something i just gotta say


                                            > So avariel and I recently started posting our stories on ff.net and
                                            > they have a stats counter. At first, it was like "Oh cool - now I can
                                            > track how many people are reading!" Handy tool right?
                                            >
                                            > Except now I'm just getting frustrated by the serious lack of
                                            > reviews/critiques etc. I know there are people reading it but their
                                            > silence is like a brick wall - I am going to assume the readers that
                                            > have made it past chapters 1 or 2 like it well enough but why? And
                                            > the readers who never made it past chapter 1, why?
                                            >
                                            > Are our chapters too long? Are we too wordy? Is it because it
                                            > features two of the less popular characters from the NWN 2 games? Is
                                            > the Sand and Torio pairing one that just doesn't make sense to most
                                            > people? Are we too light/dark/smutty/violent? Is it because our
                                            > rating is mature and that scares people off? Is it because our story
                                            > moves slower than the average fan fic? (We wanted more of a fantasy
                                            > novel series feel than a series of quickies) Or are people just
                                            > inherently lazy?
                                            >
                                            > In my quest to understand this phenomenon I had posted a poll asking
                                            > why people leave a review. The poll was centered around three
                                            > "motivations" : the work itself (aka was the work good/bad?), the
                                            > relationship between the author and the reader (aka the author has
                                            > reviewed the reader's work in the past so the favor is returned) and
                                            > the reader (aka is the reader busy when a chapter is posted?).
                                            >
                                            > Not surprisingly, a critique is dependent on all these, with the main
                                            > variables being the characters involved and character development in
                                            > the story, the emotional quality of the work and the reader's time
                                            > availability. The relationship between reader and author did play a
                                            > role which doesn't surprise me since sociologists like Gouldner (1960)
                                            > and archeologists like Leakey (1978) have stressed society's emphasis
                                            > on the reciprocity rule (you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours).
                                            >
                                            > I know the lack of reviews annoys other writers that I have spoken to.
                                            > At least with movies you get critics and reviewers, or you can look
                                            > at weekly sales, or when award season rolls around you can have some
                                            > feedback (whether that feedback is a true measure of 'value' and
                                            > 'worth' is an entirely different argument) - but with fan fiction
                                            > there is no measuring stick that is comparable. There is no "Oscars"
                                            > or "Grammys" for fan fic, just fans.
                                            >
                                            > I know people are shy. Or busy. But this is my simple request on
                                            > behalf of all fan fic writers out there: please - if you like a work
                                            > just drop the author a line. Just one - you don't have to provide an
                                            > in-depth review of every chapter or every paragraph - but maybe a
                                            > simple note saying "thank you". Thank you for the time you put into
                                            > writing (cause it does take time and we're all doing it for free),
                                            > thank you for the effort and thank you for the entertainment.
                                            >
                                            > Otherwise it is like writing in a vacuum and not motivating or
                                            > inspiring in the least!
                                            >
                                            > I'm done with my rant :P
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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