Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [NVnarrowgauge] Re:Berlin box car

Expand Messages
  • Brian Norden
    Some years ago (or should I say decades ago) Dave Garcia and I visited, measured and photographed the car at the Ichthyosaur State Park. At that time it was
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 4, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Some years ago (or should I say decades ago) Dave Garcia and I visited, measured and photographed the car at the Ichthyosaur State Park.  At that time it was under a roof with no sides on the structure.  It is a very old and odd car and, as I recall, we did not particularly notice NC lettering, but thought we were seeing part of the lettering for "Stockton and Ione" on the box body. 

      Very odd car.  The draft arms were not keyed to the center sill with square keys; but, rather with round dowels in half round grooves in both the draft arms and the sills!   There was just enough space between the earth and the side sill to get my head and one arm under to see this.  I was shooting 400 speed slide film at the time so I may have a photo showing this.

      Brian Norden

      Dave Eggleston wrote:
      Wendell:
       
      No problem. I just thought you'd found a new source. You got me excited! I need to look at the 1898 Inventory when I get home and see what it says about a velocipede.
       
      The 1917 ICC valuation I've seen was at UNR.
       
      The Berlin boxcar is actually thought to be (and I support this) an ex-Stockton and Ione flat that an outside framed box body was applied to AND then cut in half in the early 20th century to make a tiny shed at Bobtown station. That one half remains at the park. You used to be able to make out the NC lettering. The car is remarkably narrow and poorly built! Only 4 sills and at best around 6 feet wide and 20 feet long. No wonder these quickly dropped out of service. The line had three of these along the line as sheds by around 1900--the one at Watts was moved to a ranch and ultimately burned about 25 years ago, the one at Berlin survives, and there's one that still sits on the ROW about 25 miles south of B.M. I knew it was there but finally hunted it down around 1999 and took a lot of pictures. The box body is gone but the flatcar sills and floor are mostly there. So that would be one other relic of interest to the museum if looking for an NC car (or remains thereof)--though one barely used and of a type never photographed (that I'm aware of). All three of these cars as sheds can be seen as additions in the Bridges NC profile book at UNR. The Watts car can also be seen in some of the photos of that station, at the north end of the cluster of buildings, identifiable with its outside framing.
       
      Dave
      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Wendell Huffman <wendellhuffman@...>
      To: NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 11:01:48 AM
      Subject: [NVnarrowgauge] Re: Velocipedes (velocipedi?)

      Dave, I'd love to claim it as NC--but I can't and won't. There is
      just no evidence to support that. The valuation is in fact ICC 1917.
      The embarassment of the error is a consequence of posting from home
      away from the material! Some pages have "revised . . . June 16,
      1927" at the bottom, but not the page with the velocipede. This is a
      photo in NSRM file. I suspect it came from UNR. I need to go out to
      Berlin to see that boxcar!


      .




      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
    • Dave Eggleston
      When I visited it in 1996 or 1997 it was still under that canopy, though the NC lettering was almost obliterated by wind with only a faint tracing of N C seen
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 4, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        When I visited it in 1996 or 1997 it was still under that canopy, though the NC lettering was almost obliterated by wind with only a faint tracing of N C seen on one side. No evidence of S&I lettering on the car when I was there.
         
        I've got the plans that you and Dave drew up at the time, which have a note that the number 301 was still visible on one side and NC on the other.
         
        As you say, it's a really odd car, clearly built up by people who didn't have a solid grounding in car technology. Going to my notes, the cars were 6'4" x 22', built in 1875 by Holt or the California Agricultural Works. They arrived on the NC in October 1879 along with 2 flatcars. Prior to 1917 they were all on the ground as sheds, one at Dillon (remains still in place), one at Watts (still seen as shed in 1937 photo) and the half car at Bobtown which is now at the Berlin Icthyasaur park.
         
        I have a few photos of the Berlin car, but not digitized. Greg Maxwell posted a picture of the Dillon car some time back in the files section--see http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0A5_R6PMJi41uKqg0vXV4Uv_JzBAR14ph-NICr23KQQrMJCM_8VWYtRX1sz0tzpftwzN-kZdTuOgx9BlOK_pJpFM4g/S%26I-1.jpg. The car's roof is lying on top of the floor. This is a great car in that all the underbody detail is visible through missing floor boards; it would be quite possible to make detailed plans of the car's framing.
         
        Dave
        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Brian Norden <bnorden49@...>
        To: NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 6:33:40 PM
        Subject: Re: [NVnarrowgauge] Re:Berlin box car

        Some years ago (or should I say decades ago) Dave Garcia and I visited, measured and photographed the car at the Ichthyosaur State Park.  At that time it was under a roof with no sides on the structure.  It is a very old and odd car and, as I recall, we did not particularly notice NC lettering, but thought we were seeing part of the lettering for "Stockton and Ione" on the box body. 

        Very odd car.  The draft arms were not keyed to the center sill with square keys; but, rather with round dowels in half round grooves in both the draft arms and the sills!   There was just enough space between the earth and the side sill to get my head and one arm under to see this.  I was shooting 400 speed slide film at the time so I may have a photo showing this.

        Brian Norden

        Dave Eggleston wrote:

        Wendell:
         
        No problem. I just thought you'd found a new source. You got me excited! I need to look at the 1898 Inventory when I get home and see what it says about a velocipede.
         
        The 1917 ICC valuation I've seen was at UNR.
         
        The Berlin boxcar is actually thought to be (and I support this) an ex-Stockton and Ione flat that an outside framed box body was applied to AND then cut in half in the early 20th century to make a tiny shed at Bobtown station. That one half remains at the park. You used to be able to make out the NC lettering. The car is remarkably narrow and poorly built! Only 4 sills and at best around 6 feet wide and 20 feet long. No wonder these quickly dropped out of service. The line had three of these along the line as sheds by around 1900--the one at Watts was moved to a ranch and ultimately burned about 25 years ago, the one at Berlin survives, and there's one that still sits on the ROW about 25 miles south of B.M. I knew it was there but finally hunted it down around 1999 and took a lot of pictures. The box body is gone but the flatcar sills and floor are mostly there. So that would be one other relic of interest to the museum if looking for an NC car (or remains thereof)--though one barely used and of a type never photographed (that I'm aware of). All three of these cars as sheds can be seen as additions in the Bridges NC profile book at UNR. The Watts car can also be seen in some of the photos of that station, at the north end of the cluster of buildings, identifiable with its outside framing.
         
        Dave
        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Wendell Huffman <wendellhuffman@ hotmail.com>
        To: NVnarrowgauge@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 11:01:48 AM
        Subject: [NVnarrowgauge] Re: Velocipedes (velocipedi? )

        Dave, I'd love to claim it as NC--but I can't and won't. There is
        just no evidence to support that. The valuation is in fact ICC 1917.
        The embarassment of the error is a consequence of posting from home
        away from the material! Some pages have "revised . . . June 16,
        1927" at the bottom, but not the page with the velocipede. This is a
        photo in NSRM file. I suspect it came from UNR. I need to go out to
        Berlin to see that boxcar!


        .



        .




        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
      • EANDPNG@AOL.COM
        The E&P had at least one velocipede but as far as I know it was a #3. From the E&PRR letter book at UN-R, Pg 230, B.G. to the Kalamazoo Velocipede and Car Co.
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          The E&P had at least one velocipede but as far as I know it was a #3.


          From the E&PRR letter book at UN-R,
          Pg 230, B.G. to the Kalamazoo Velocipede and Car Co. 5-28-90
           Placing an order for one steel, one seat, No.3 Velocipede.
          (B.G. is Byron Gillman, E&P gm)
          Regards,
          Greg Maxwell

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dave Eggleston <degg13@...>
          To: NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:48 am
          Subject: Re: [NVnarrowgauge] Velocipedes (velocipedi?)

          I get that you'd like to tie it to the NC. Non-NC items have shown up around Austin such as standard gauge tank cars at a ranch and until the early 1970s an E&P boxcar. Could this velocipede have been a floating relic from the E&P or Tonapah? It would make a fun research project for someone. But I wouldn't call it NC yet.
           
          There are so few relics of the NC out there. There is a shed near Bridges that I believe may have been NC. The Berlin boxcar (Bobtown shed) at the Icthyasaur monument. The Carter car at SPCRR. You probably won't get the last item (I did try to convince them to paint it in 1882 style NC buff when it got restored but they didn't bite). But the other two items? Sure would be nice to have what's left of the Berlin car in safer conditions. That car is wearing away from wind erosion.
           
          One question: what collection is the 1902 valuation that you're referencing located in?
           
          Thanks,
          Dave Eggleston
          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Wendell Huffman <wendellhuffman@...>
          To: NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2008 8:05:25 PM
          Subject: [NVnarrowgauge] Velocipedes (velocipedi?)

          We (at NSRM) have received an interesting end-of-year donation in the
          form of an old velocipede. What interests me (and the reason I post
          it here), is the donor's statement that the fellow he got it from
          found it "out in the desert near Austin". Unfortunately, along with
          the pump handle and one stirup, the car is missing the outrigger
          (interestngly, it has its third wheel), so there is no way to
          establish its gauge.

          I really would love to claim this piece as Nevada Central since we
          have nothing to represent that road at the museum, but all we have is
          the donor's statement--which is really not much more than rumor.

          The issue with the outrigger is an arguement for really documenting
          what you salvage. The fact that the third wheel still exists strongly
          suggests that the outrigger was still there when "they" found the
          car. The rest of the wood is sound, though certinly dry.

          On the other hand, the absence of the outrigger may itself support
          the idea that this was a narrow gauge car: "Yeah, I'm going to
          restore this, but I'll make it standard gauge so I can run it
          somewhere, so may as well leave that outrigger here."

          Also, and perhaps more indicitive of origin on the NC is the fact
          that elements of the original factory (Sheffield, Three Rivers,
          Mich.) decals are evident. In other words, this car was apparently
          never painted after it left the factory! Had it been an SP or WP
          velocipede, it certainly would have been painted.

          I'm a historian, not a prophet, so I don't know what will become of
          this car. But, it is safely out of the weather and anyone is welcome
          to come see it. It is parked next to a fully restored Sheffield No. 2
          (former WP) velocipede. This one appears to be a No. 1 (the seat
          being the only difference that I know of).

          I do know that NC had several velocipedes at one point. However, the
          1902 valuation lists only one--a No.2 (and, again, this appears to be
          a No.1). Could this really have sat abandoned from before 1902? Of
          course, that could explain why it was left out in the desert when the
          line was scrapped. On the other hand, this No.1 may have been
          acquired after 1902.

          I hardly know how to date velocipedes. There was little change in
          these cars from first production in the 1870s/80s through last
          production after WWII. Wheels changed some (these are wood spoke).
          Also, the frame of this car only extends a couple inched forward of
          the front wheel bearing, while the frame on our other (WP) car extend
          past the front wheel to form a convenient handle for lifting it. That
          suggests to me that our "new' car is older than the WP one. (And, I
          should admit that the evidence that our old one is WP is about as
          scanty as any claim that this is a Nevada Central).

          Wendell




          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

          More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
        • Wendell Huffman
          Very interesting. At this point I am sure I could not distinguish a Kalamazoo from a Sheffield (having never seen one that I knew was the former). The two
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Very interesting. At this point I am sure I could not distinguish a
            Kalamazoo from a Sheffield (having never seen one that I knew was the
            former). The two companies were located only a few miles from each
            other (Sheffield being at Three Rivers), and it is likely that
            employees and design elements moved back and forth. I have pulled the
            various patents issued to each company, but have yet to study them
            sufficiently to distinguish their products.

            When first offered the car we now have I was told one could
            read "Kalamazoo" on it. In fact I can't; I can however clearly make
            out the "Sheffield" and the "Three" of Three Rivers. That said (and
            in light of what you say) I should add that while we know that NC had
            a few Velocipedes, I have yet to see such information that would
            establish whether one or all were Sheffields or Kalamazoos. But, it
            is questions like this that drives me onward. W.

            --- In NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com, EANDPNG@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > The E&P had at least one velocipede but as far as I know it was a
            #3.
            >
            >
            >
            > From the E&PRR letter book at UN-R,
            >
            > Pg 230, B.G. to the Kalamazoo Velocipede and Car Co. 5-28-90
            >
            > ?Placing an order for one steel, one seat, No.3 Velocipede.
            >
            >
            > (B.G. is Byron Gillman, E&P gm)
            > Regards,
            > Greg Maxwell
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Dave Eggleston <degg13@...>
            > To: NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:48 am
            > Subject: Re: [NVnarrowgauge] Velocipedes (velocipedi?)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I get that you'd like to tie it to the NC. Non-NC items have shown
            up around Austin?such as?standard gauge tank cars at a ranch and
            until the early 1970s an E&P boxcar. Could this velocipede have been
            a floating relic from the E&P or Tonapah? It would make a fun
            research project for someone. But I wouldn't call it NC yet.
            >
            > ?
            >
            > There are so few relics of the NC out there. There is a shed near
            Bridges that I believe may have been NC. The Berlin boxcar (Bobtown
            shed) at the Icthyasaur monument. The Carter car at SPCRR. You
            probably won't get the last item (I did try to convince them to paint
            it in 1882 style NC buff when it?got restored?but they didn't bite).
            But the other two items? Sure would be nice to have what's left of
            the Berlin car in safer conditions. That car is?wearing away from
            wind erosion.
            >
            > ?
            >
            > One question: what collection?is the 1902 valuation?that you're
            referencing located in?
            >
            > ?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Dave Eggleston
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Wendell Huffman <wendellhuffman@...>
            > To: NVnarrowgauge@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2008 8:05:25 PM
            > Subject: [NVnarrowgauge] Velocipedes (velocipedi?)
            >
            >
            >
            > We (at NSRM) have received an interesting end-of-year donation in
            the
            > form of an old velocipede. What interests me (and the reason I post
            > it here), is the donor's statement that the fellow he got it from
            > found it "out in the desert near Austin". Unfortunately, along with
            > the pump handle and one stirup, the car is missing the outrigger
            > (interestngly, it has its third wheel), so there is no way to
            > establish its gauge.
            >
            > I really would love to claim this piece as Nevada Central since we
            > have nothing to represent that road at the museum, but all we have
            is
            > the donor's statement--which is really not much more than rumor.
            >
            > The issue with the outrigger is an arguement for really documenting
            > what you salvage. The fact that the third wheel still exists
            strongly
            > suggests that the outrigger was still there when "they" found the
            > car. The rest of the wood is sound, though certinly dry.
            >
            > On the other hand, the absence of the outrigger may itself support
            > the idea that this was a narrow gauge car: "Yeah, I'm going to
            > restore this, but I'll make it standard gauge so I can run it
            > somewhere, so may as well leave that outrigger here."
            >
            > Also, and perhaps more indicitive of origin on the NC is the fact
            > that elements of the original factory (Sheffield, Three Rivers,
            > Mich.) decals are evident. In other words, this car was apparently
            > never painted after it left the factory! Had it been an SP or WP
            > velocipede, it certainly would have been painted.
            >
            > I'm a historian, not a prophet, so I don't know what will become of
            > this car. But, it is safely out of the weather and anyone is
            welcome
            > to come see it. It is parked next to a fully restored Sheffield No.
            2
            > (former WP) velocipede. This one appears to be a No. 1 (the seat
            > being the only difference that I know of).
            >
            > I do know that NC had several velocipedes at one point. However,
            the
            > 1902 valuation lists only one--a No.2 (and, again, this appears to
            be
            > a No.1). Could this really have sat abandoned from before 1902? Of
            > course, that could explain why it was left out in the desert when
            the
            > line was scrapped. On the other hand, this No.1 may have been
            > acquired after 1902.
            >
            > I hardly know how to date velocipedes. There was little change in
            > these cars from first production in the 1870s/80s through last
            > production after WWII. Wheels changed some (these are wood spoke).
            > Also, the frame of this car only extends a couple inched forward of
            > the front wheel bearing, while the frame on our other (WP) car
            extend
            > past the front wheel to form a convenient handle for lifting it.
            That
            > suggests to me that our "new' car is older than the WP one. (And, I
            > should admit that the evidence that our old one is WP is about as
            > scanty as any claim that this is a Nevada Central).
            >
            > Wendell
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            __
            > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
            http://webmail.aol.com
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.