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Hello to Everyone

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  • Ron
    Hi there I am a new member doing narrow gauge and mining. My name is Ron Richardson, and I live by the gigantic Union Pacific switching yard in Roseville CA.
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 3, 2013
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      Hi there I am a new member doing narrow gauge and mining. My name is Ron Richardson, and I live by the gigantic Union Pacific switching yard in Roseville CA. Roseville is located on Interstate 80 about half way between San Francisco and Reno.

      My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road.

      Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax... quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete.

      I am also modeling the NCNG yard in Nevada City which was the northern end of the rail road and had fewer switching lines and engine shops than it's twin city of Grass Valley. The two cities were 5 miles apart. The NCNG burned wood in its locomotives until the early 1900's when it gradually converted it's locomotives over to oil burners. Until the NCNG acquired a pair of 2-8-0's in 1933, it often double headed its
      4-4-0 locomotives for hauling power.
    • kjb80401
      Ron, I had the occasion to visit Grass Valley back in the 70 s and toured the state park (?) where the mine was located. Now, if memory serves me correctly,
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 3, 2013
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        Ron,
          I had the occasion to visit Grass Valley back in the 70's and toured the state park (?) where the mine was located.  Now, if memory serves me correctly, there was a very large tailings or water wheel that would impress anyone interested in mining processes.  Is it still there?  I just did a Google Images search and saw one photo that seems to be displaying it inside a museum or something like that.
          The other memory I have of the community was ladies walking about the downtown area dressed in period costumes.
        Keevan
         
        In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:37:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ron@... writes:
        My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road.

        Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax... quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete.
      • George Konrad
        Ron,           Welcome aboard! My, my, narrow gauge and mining; that s music to my ears! I am fully involved in both, in scales of O and F (On3 and
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 3, 2013
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          Ron,
                    Welcome aboard! My, my, narrow gauge and mining; that's music to my ears! I am fully involved in both, in scales of O and F (On3 and Fn3). Rowe shaft, out on East Empire Street, is one of my all-time favorites and I was fortunate enough to be at Rowe before it was either fenced off or tumbled down. I could climb to the top and take many photos, and also dimensions.
                      I had the Rowe, using my drawings, in one of my mining articles in the Gazette. However, some years later I got lucky again and contacted a California park ranger who had rescued the original Empire Mine erection drawings for the Rowe. They had been just tossed down the shaft, and being a slope shaft, the ranger rescued all the material he could get his hands on. Photos of those drawings are what Bill Gustafson used for his kits.    
                 I built NGNG nos. 5 & 6 in Fn3, and once upon a time a had them both in On3. Too bad I did not hang onto them! However, a plan is afoot to take an Accucraft # 268, do some detail work, build a tender, and them # 8 will grace the rails of my On3 layout once again. Never sell any of your toys!
          George
           

          From: Ron <ron@...>
          To: NGMMG@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 12:37 PM
          Subject: [NGMMG] Hello to Everyone
           
          Hi there I am a new member doing narrow gauge and mining. My name is Ron Richardson, and I live by the gigantic Union Pacific switching yard in Roseville CA. Roseville is located on Interstate 80 about half way between San Francisco and Reno. My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road. Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax... quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete. I am also modeling the NCNG yard in Nevada City which was the northern end of the rail road and had fewer switching lines and engine shops than it's twin city of Grass Valley. The two cities were 5 miles apart. The NCNG burned wood in its locomotives until the early 1900's when it gradually converted it's locomotives over to oil burners. Until the NCNG acquired a pair of 2-8-0's in 1933, it often double headed its 4-4-0 locomotives for hauling power.
        • Ron
          I suspect that things have changed a great deal at the Empire Mine. I wandered around it, and walked down into mine a bit just after it stopped production.
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 3, 2013
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            I suspect that things have changed a great deal at the Empire Mine. I wandered around it, and walked down into mine a bit just after it stopped production. That was probably in the mid/late 1950's. The Empire headframe has been dramatically shortened, and a lot of mechanical pieces of the mine have been placed on display for tourists. The Rowe headframe is rotting itself to death after 50 years, and closed to the public because there is no maintenance. You can see this by looking over the Empire Mine photos.

            --- In NGMMG@yahoogroups.com, Kjb80401@... wrote:
            >
            > Ron,
            > I had the occasion to visit Grass Valley back in the 70's and toured the
            > state park (?) where the mine was located. Now, if memory serves me
            > correctly, there was a very large tailings or water wheel that would impress
            > anyone interested in mining processes. Is it still there? I just did a
            > Google Images search and saw one photo that seems to be displaying it inside a
            > museum or something like that.
            > The other memory I have of the community was ladies walking about the
            > downtown area dressed in period costumes.
            > Keevan
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:37:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
            > ron@... writes:
            >
            > My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the
            > Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in
            > California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for
            > around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because
            > I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The
            > NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need
            > for a local short line rail road.
            >
            > Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine,
            > which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California.
            > On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head
            > in Colfax... quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of
            > modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire
            > Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several
            > months or more to complete.
            >
          • Ron
            I visited the Rowe a number of years ago, while it is tumbling down and fenced off, it still exists. Congratulations on rescuing the original drawings. The
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
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              I visited the Rowe a number of years ago, while it is tumbling down and fenced off, it still exists. Congratulations on rescuing the original drawings. The Rowe exists in HO modeling, but there is little left of it worth seeing.

              I don't know what Fn3 is... sorry about that. I am very aware of On3 having been a member of the NCNG club project in Grass Valley. It takes up a lot of room, and several rooms to do it right... they did. I have an On30 on a 4 x 7.5 foot layout to work with. I can use HO track and imagine what I need to imagine about modeling the NCNG. I could model more in Hon3, but that is way too small at my age. On30 is about 50% larger than standard HO scale which fits better in my hands, and on my layout, but takes up more room.

              By the way, San Juan Decals sells decals for the NCNG. I believe they are HO scale, but they will work for me. I have 3 4-4-0's, a 4-6-0, and a 2-8-0. All but one are painted black and unlettered which works.

              --- In NGMMG@yahoogroups.com, George Konrad <georgekonradmmr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ron,
              >           Welcome aboard! My, my, narrow gauge and mining; that's music to my ears! I am fully involved in both, in scales of O and F (On3 and Fn3). Rowe shaft, out on East Empire Street, is one of my all-time favorites and I was fortunate enough to be at Rowe before it was either fenced off or tumbled down. I could climb to the top and take many photos, and also dimensions.
              >             I had the Rowe, using my drawings, in one of my mining articles in the Gazette. However, some years later I got lucky again and contacted a California park ranger who had rescued the original Empire Mine erection drawings for the Rowe. They had been just tossed down the shaft, and being a slope shaft, the ranger rescued all the material he could get his hands on. Photos of those drawings are what Bill Gustafson used for his kits.    
              >        I built NGNG nos. 5 & 6 in Fn3, and once upon a time a had them both in On3. Too bad I did not hang onto them! However, a plan is afoot to take an Accucraft # 268, do some detail work, build a tender, and them # 8 will grace the rails of my On3 layout once again. Never sell any of your toys!
              > George
              >  
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Ron <ron@...>
              > To: NGMMG@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 12:37 PM
              > Subject: [NGMMG] Hello to Everyone
              >
              >  
              >
              > Hi there I am a new member doing narrow gauge and mining. My name is Ron Richardson, and I live by the gigantic Union Pacific switching yard in Roseville CA. Roseville is located on Interstate 80 about half way between San Francisco and Reno. My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road. Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax...
              > quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete. I am also modeling the NCNG yard in Nevada City which was the northern end of the rail road and had fewer switching lines and engine shops than it's twin city of Grass Valley. The two cities were 5 miles apart. The NCNG burned wood in its locomotives until the early 1900's when it gradually converted it's locomotives over to oil burners. Until the NCNG acquired a pair of 2-8-0's in 1933, it often double headed its 4-4-0 locomotives for hauling power.
              >
            • Hart Corbett
              Ron, welcome to the List! Your Rowe Shaft kit sounds like a Western Scale Models kit. They used to do it in HO but even in that scale, it used a lot of layout
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
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                Ron, welcome to the List!

                Your Rowe Shaft kit sounds like a Western Scale Models kit. They used to do it in HO but even in that scale, it used a lot of layout real estate.

                So you haven't been to the Empire Mine in a while? From Roseville, it's about an hour's drive to Grass Valley and the Empire.

                One week ago today, I was walking the grounds of the Empire Mine State Park. I've been there often, the first time being 1952 (I was 15) when the Empire was still in regular operation. Unfortunately, I overexposed my 8mm movies of it. Quite a sight! It's still a very interesting place to visit.

                The State Park people have a very good Visitor Center there. Lots of visitors last Thursday! Also a visitor also can go out and wander around the stone wall enclosed, very large mine yard and walk down modern concrete steps into the electrically lighted incline shaft (no vertical shafts because the initial ore body was on a 52 per cent slant) for about 100 feet. I did. All the original track, timbering, etc., is still there but safety screening prevents tourists from doing dumb things. The lights go much further down. Most of the very large buildings still can be visited and some can be toured with a guide. The mine yard has all sorts of mining equipment of display which a visitor can photograph and touch.

                As you said, most of the external head frame of the incline shaft was taken down, not long after the mine closed in 1956, because it was in bad shape and was about to collapse. The Rowe shaft was on a different plot of land to the north of the main incline shaft. At the time it was built to more modern technology that the original Empire, it was a supplementary incline. As you know, the Rowe had four tracks coming out of ground as compared to only two for the original. The Rowe was torn down completely in the 1960s or 1970s, mostly because of its very large size and the restoration and maintenance expenses were far too much to keep doing for the State Park system's budget. Only a sign marks the spot.

                In the Visitor Center is a very large 1:89 scale model of all the tunnels, adits, drifts, etc. of the mine (which also includes the shafts and drifts of the North Star Mine which the Empire had purchased sometime in the first third of the 20th century). The routes of the underground workings are shown but the ground through which they passed is not. The 3 dimensional model occupies a large room and can be seen through visitor-proof windows. It was built, under the direction of Mine Manager Bob Cannon, by certain select mining engineers, etc., in the employ of the Empire, starting in 1938. Its existence was kept secret until several years after the mine closed. Only certain people were ever allowed to see it or even know of its existence. Bob Cannon later became a friend of my Dad's and I got to know him, too. Back about 1990, he was going to show me all his maps of the Empire's underground workings but passed away before he was able. I have no idea what happened to his maps, unfortunately.

                The model gives a very good "feel" for the whole underground operation. The original incline was 10,000 feet long but that's measured along the slant of the incline. In vertical depth, the mine's deepest point was about 8,500 feet. The city of Grass Valley, where the Empire is, is at an average altitude of 2,500 feet, which means that 6,000 vertical feet of the mine was below sea level. IIRC, the mileage of the underground tunnels totaled about 43 miles. All of this now is filled with water from the natural water table in the area. At the original incline, the surface of the water table now is only about 150 vertical feet beneath the top of the mine yard.

                Quite an enterprise at one time!

                You say that you are modeling the NCNG railroad. You probably are aware of the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Railroad Museum on Kidder Court just off the Hwy. 49 freeway on the north side of the divide between Grass Valley and Nevada City. It has been in existence for some years and is open to the public (weekends only in the winter). Among other things, it has an original NCNG steam engine on display indoors and a lots of restored, and being restored, wooden cars from the NCNG (a tank car, for example) as well as from other narrow gauges, including the West Side Lumber Co., the Lake Tahoe Ry. & Navigation Co., the Southern Pacific Narrow Gauge, and others.

                My friend John Christensen manages this Museum and is very involved in the restoration work. I visited him and the Museum last Thursday, too. The Museum is owned by the Nevada County Historical Society. That Society and the SP Narrow Gauge HIstorical Society are holding a 4-day Sierra Narrow Gauge Conference at the Museum starting on June 18. There will be one locomotive under steam and a short West Side Lumber Co. train pulled by the original West Side gas powered Milwaukee switcher that I saw in use in the Tuolumne yards of that company back in 1959. John and crew restored that engine too. I was hoping to be there but my wife and I, along with our son and daughter in law, will be in Tennessee at a family reunion having to do with my wife's distant relatives there.

                If you want more info about the NCNG Museum, it has a website at:

                http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/

                More info about the Sierra Narrow Gauge Conference also can be found on this website.

                BTW, Ron, Fn3 means 3-foot narrow gauge models at 1:20.3 scale.

                With best regards, Hart Corbett
                Novato, CA
              • Ron
                Thank you for the welcome Hart, and Wow! I have finally met someone who knows more than I do about the NCNG, the Empire and the Rowe. Yes the Rowe kit is a
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
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                  Thank you for the welcome Hart, and Wow! I have finally met someone who knows more than I do about the NCNG, the Empire and the Rowe.

                  Yes the Rowe kit is a Western Scale Model in HO. Even then the headframe is 14 inches high, and yes, it does take up a lot of real estate on a layout.

                  I have driven by, but not gone inside the Empire Mine State Park, or visited the North Star mine historical park on the other side of the freeway near the fair grounds. Having walked the grounds of the Empire after it shut down is a wonderful memory, but I probably need to revisit the mine as a State Park like you have. I could have on many opportunities, but never found the time. I was usually heading up to the NCNG Project at the fair grounds. I knew the Empire was a really deep tunnel system, but it is even deeper than published reports from many decades ago. The North Star was purchased by the Empire and went down 8600 feet.

                  I have been to the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Railroad Museum many times, but not in the last 6 years. I donated a fresh (clear plastic cover intact) hardbound copy of Gerald Best's Nevada County Narrow Gauge to the museum, as well as a large box of a Bachmann HO scale steam train fresh in the box, never opened. They were restoring cars back then... appears they still are.

                  I will contact the museum about the June 18 conference... it sounds wonderful. Perhaps I can make it in your place, and report back to you. Ron Richardson

                  --- In NGMMG@yahoogroups.com, Hart Corbett <hwcorbett@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ron, welcome to the List!
                  >
                  > Your Rowe Shaft kit sounds like a Western Scale Models kit. They used to do it in HO but even in that scale, it used a lot of layout real estate.
                  >
                  > So you haven't been to the Empire Mine in a while? From Roseville, it's about an hour's drive to Grass Valley and the Empire.
                  >
                  > One week ago today, I was walking the grounds of the Empire Mine State Park. I've been there often, the first time being 1952 (I was 15) when the Empire was still in regular operation. Unfortunately, I overexposed my 8mm movies of it. Quite a sight! It's still a very interesting place to visit.
                  >
                  > The State Park people have a very good Visitor Center there. Lots of visitors last Thursday! Also a visitor also can go out and wander around the stone wall enclosed, very large mine yard and walk down modern concrete steps into the electrically lighted incline shaft (no vertical shafts because the initial ore body was on a 52 per cent slant) for about 100 feet. I did. All the original track, timbering, etc., is still there but safety screening prevents tourists from doing dumb things. The lights go much further down. Most of the very large buildings still can be visited and some can be toured with a guide. The mine yard has all sorts of mining equipment of display which a visitor can photograph and touch.
                  >
                  > As you said, most of the external head frame of the incline shaft was taken down, not long after the mine closed in 1956, because it was in bad shape and was about to collapse. The Rowe shaft was on a different plot of land to the north of the main incline shaft. At the time it was built to more modern technology that the original Empire, it was a supplementary incline. As you know, the Rowe had four tracks coming out of ground as compared to only two for the original. The Rowe was torn down completely in the 1960s or 1970s, mostly because of its very large size and the restoration and maintenance expenses were far too much to keep doing for the State Park system's budget. Only a sign marks the spot.
                  >
                  > In the Visitor Center is a very large 1:89 scale model of all the tunnels, adits, drifts, etc. of the mine (which also includes the shafts and drifts of the North Star Mine which the Empire had purchased sometime in the first third of the 20th century). The routes of the underground workings are shown but the ground through which they passed is not. The 3 dimensional model occupies a large room and can be seen through visitor-proof windows. It was built, under the direction of Mine Manager Bob Cannon, by certain select mining engineers, etc., in the employ of the Empire, starting in 1938. Its existence was kept secret until several years after the mine closed. Only certain people were ever allowed to see it or even know of its existence. Bob Cannon later became a friend of my Dad's and I got to know him, too. Back about 1990, he was going to show me all his maps of the Empire's underground workings but passed away before he was able. I have no idea what happened to his maps, unfortunately.
                  >
                  > The model gives a very good "feel" for the whole underground operation. The original incline was 10,000 feet long but that's measured along the slant of the incline. In vertical depth, the mine's deepest point was about 8,500 feet. The city of Grass Valley, where the Empire is, is at an average altitude of 2,500 feet, which means that 6,000 vertical feet of the mine was below sea level. IIRC, the mileage of the underground tunnels totaled about 43 miles. All of this now is filled with water from the natural water table in the area. At the original incline, the surface of the water table now is only about 150 vertical feet beneath the top of the mine yard.
                  >
                  > Quite an enterprise at one time!
                  >
                  > You say that you are modeling the NCNG railroad. You probably are aware of the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Railroad Museum on Kidder Court just off the Hwy. 49 freeway on the north side of the divide between Grass Valley and Nevada City. It has been in existence for some years and is open to the public (weekends only in the winter). Among other things, it has an original NCNG steam engine on display indoors and a lots of restored, and being restored, wooden cars from the NCNG (a tank car, for example) as well as from other narrow gauges, including the West Side Lumber Co., the Lake Tahoe Ry. & Navigation Co., the Southern Pacific Narrow Gauge, and others.
                  >
                  > My friend John Christensen manages this Museum and is very involved in the restoration work. I visited him and the Museum last Thursday, too. The Museum is owned by the Nevada County Historical Society. That Society and the SP Narrow Gauge HIstorical Society are holding a 4-day Sierra Narrow Gauge Conference at the Museum starting on June 18. There will be one locomotive under steam and a short West Side Lumber Co. train pulled by the original West Side gas powered Milwaukee switcher that I saw in use in the Tuolumne yards of that company back in 1959. John and crew restored that engine too. I was hoping to be there but my wife and I, along with our son and daughter in law, will be in Tennessee at a family reunion having to do with my wife's distant relatives there.
                  >
                  > If you want more info about the NCNG Museum, it has a website at:
                  >
                  > http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/
                  >
                  > More info about the Sierra Narrow Gauge Conference also can be found on this website.
                  >
                  > BTW, Ron, Fn3 means 3-foot narrow gauge models at 1:20.3 scale.
                  >
                  > With best regards, Hart Corbett
                  > Novato, CA
                  >
                • George Konrad
                  Keevan,   When we were in Grass Vallley forty years ago this year, they were just starting to build an enclosure for the Pelton wheel. Peltons are an water
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
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                    Keevan,
                      When we were in Grass Vallley forty years ago this year, they were just starting to build an enclosure for the Pelton wheel. Peltons are an water impulse directed wheel whose "cups" will actually turn the water 180 degrees, thus giving the "push" needed to generate power. I sure hope that this marvelous artifact is still there!
                    George

                    From: "Kjb80401@..." <Kjb80401@...>
                    To: NGMMG@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 12:50 PM
                    Subject: Re: [NGMMG] Hello to Everyone
                     
                    Ron,
                      I had the occasion to visit Grass Valley back in the 70's and toured the state park (?) where the mine was located.  Now, if memory serves me correctly, there was a very large tailings or water wheel that would impress anyone interested in mining processes.  Is it still there?  I just did a Google Images search and saw one photo that seems to be displaying it inside a museum or something like that.
                      The other memory I have of the community was ladies walking about the downtown area dressed in period costumes.
                    Keevan
                     
                    In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:37:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ron@... writes:
                    My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road.

                    Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax... quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete.
                  • George Konrad
                    Ron,   Fn3 is 1:20.3 scale, using 45mm track. Gauge one thus comes out to three foot gauge. Yeah, things get big fast! If you get the Gazette you can find
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
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                      Ron,
                        Fn3 is 1:20.3 scale, using 45mm track. Gauge one thus comes out to three foot gauge. Yeah, things get big fast! If you get the Gazette you can find some of my old articles on items built in this scale. I don't know what all that garbage is in my message, my apologies!
                      George

                      From: Ron <ron@...>
                      To: NGMMG@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:07 AM
                      Subject: [NGMMG] Re: Hello to Everyone
                       
                      I visited the Rowe a number of years ago, while it is tumbling down and fenced off, it still exists. Congratulations on rescuing the original drawings. The Rowe exists in HO modeling, but there is little left of it worth seeing.

                      I don't know what Fn3 is... sorry about that. I am very aware of On3 having been a member of the NCNG club project in Grass Valley. It takes up a lot of room, and several rooms to do it right... they did. I have an On30 on a 4 x 7.5 foot layout to work with. I can use HO track and imagine what I need to imagine about modeling the NCNG. I could model more in Hon3, but that is way too small at my age. On30 is about 50% larger than standard HO scale which fits better in my hands, and on my layout, but takes up more room.

                      By the way, San Juan Decals sells decals for the NCNG. I believe they are HO scale, but they will work for me. I have 3 4-4-0's, a 4-6-0, and a 2-8-0. All but one are painted black and unlettered which works.

                      --- In mailto:NGMMG%40yahoogroups.com, George Konrad <georgekonradmmr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ron,
                      >           Welcome aboard! My, my, narrow gauge and mining; that's music to my ears! I am fully involved in both, in scales of O and F (On3 and Fn3). Rowe shaft, out on East Empire Street, is one of my all-time favorites and I was fortunate enough to be at Rowe before it was either fenced off or tumbled down. I could climb to the top and take many photos, and also dimensions.
                      >             I had the Rowe, using my drawings, in one of my mining articles in the Gazette. However, some years later I got lucky again and contacted a California park ranger who had rescued the original Empire Mine erection drawings for the Rowe. They had been just tossed down the shaft, and being a slope shaft, the ranger rescued all the material he could get his hands on. Photos of those drawings are what Bill Gustafson used for his kits.    
                      >        I built NGNG nos. 5 & 6 in Fn3, and once upon a time a had them both in On3. Too bad I did not hang onto them! However, a plan is afoot to take an Accucraft # 268, do some detail work, build a tender, and them # 8 will grace the rails of my On3 layout once again. Never sell any of your toys!
                      > George
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Ron <ron@...>
                      > To: mailto:NGMMG%40yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 12:37 PM
                      > Subject: [NGMMG] Hello to Everyone
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Hi there I am a new member doing narrow gauge and mining. My name is Ron Richardson, and I live by the gigantic Union Pacific switching yard in Roseville CA. Roseville is located on Interstate 80 about half way between San Francisco and Reno. My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road. Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax...
                      > quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete. I am also modeling the NCNG yard in Nevada City which was the northern end of the rail road and had fewer switching lines and engine shops than it's twin city of Grass Valley. The two cities were 5 miles apart. The NCNG burned wood in its locomotives until the early 1900's when it gradually converted it's locomotives over to oil burners. Until the NCNG acquired a pair of 2-8-0's in 1933, it often double headed its 4-4-0 locomotives for hauling power.
                      >

                    • Ron
                      The Pelton Wheel(s) provided a lot of electicity for the Empire Mine. They had 1000 horsepower air pumps for the lower reaches of their tunnels. A lot of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The Pelton Wheel(s) provided a lot of electicity for the Empire Mine. They had 1000 horsepower air pumps for the lower reaches of their tunnels. A lot of energy was required for that, in addition to powering the hoists, and pumping water from the depths.

                        --- In NGMMG@yahoogroups.com, George Konrad <georgekonradmmr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Keevan,
                        >   When we were in Grass Vallley forty years ago this year, they were just starting to build an enclosure for the Pelton wheel. Peltons are an water impulse directed wheel whose "cups" will actually turn the water 180 degrees, thus giving the "push" needed to generate power. I sure hope that this marvelous artifact is still there!
                        > George
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: "Kjb80401@..." <Kjb80401@...>
                        > To: NGMMG@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 12:50 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [NGMMG] Hello to Everyone
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Ron,  I had the occasion to visit Grass Valley back in the 70's and
                        > toured the state park (?) where the mine was located.  Now, if memory
                        > serves me correctly, there was a very large tailings or water wheel that would
                        > impress anyone interested in mining processes.  Is it still there?  I
                        > just did a Google Images search and saw one photo that seems to be displaying it
                        > inside a museum or something like that.
                        >   The other memory I have of the community was ladies walking about
                        > the downtown area dressed in period costumes.
                        > Keevan
                        >
                        > In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:37:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
                        > ron@... writes:
                        > My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road.
                        > >
                        > >Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of
                        > California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest
                        > producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1
                        > million in gold to the rail head in Colfax... quite a load back in those days.
                        > I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which
                        > was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take
                        > at least several months or more to
                        > complete.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Ron
                        Thank you George. Sounds like Fn3 was large scale narrow gauge before large scale became so popular indoors, outdoors and around the Christmas Tree.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 4, 2013
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                          Thank you George. Sounds like Fn3 was large scale narrow gauge before large scale became so popular indoors, outdoors and around the Christmas Tree.

                          --- In NGMMG@yahoogroups.com, George Konrad <georgekonradmmr@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ron,
                          >   Fn3 is 1:20.3 scale, using 45mm track. Gauge one thus comes out to three foot gauge. Yeah, things get big fast! If you get the Gazette you can find some of my old articles on items built in this scale. I don't know what all that garbage is in my message, my apologies!
                          > George
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Ron <ron@...>
                          > To: NGMMG@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:07 AM
                          > Subject: [NGMMG] Re: Hello to Everyone
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > I visited the Rowe a number of years ago, while it is tumbling down and fenced off, it still exists. Congratulations on rescuing the original drawings. The Rowe exists in HO modeling, but there is little left of it worth seeing.
                          >
                          > I don't know what Fn3 is... sorry about that. I am very aware of On3 having been a member of the NCNG club project in Grass Valley. It takes up a lot of room, and several rooms to do it right... they did. I have an On30 on a 4 x 7.5 foot layout to work with. I can use HO track and imagine what I need to imagine about modeling the NCNG. I could model more in Hon3, but that is way too small at my age. On30 is about 50% larger than standard HO scale which fits better in my hands, and on my layout, but takes up more room.
                          >
                          > By the way, San Juan Decals sells decals for the NCNG. I believe they are HO scale, but they will work for me. I have 3 4-4-0's, a 4-6-0, and a 2-8-0. All but one are painted black and unlettered which works.
                          >
                          > --- In mailto:NGMMG%40yahoogroups.com, George Konrad <georgekonradmmr@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Ron,
                          > >           Welcome aboard! My, my, narrow gauge and mining; that's music to my ears! I am fully involved in both, in scales of O and F (On3 and Fn3). Rowe shaft, out on East Empire Street, is one of my all-time favorites and I was fortunate enough to be at Rowe before it was either fenced off or tumbled down. I could climb to the top and take many photos, and also dimensions.
                          > >             I had the Rowe, using my drawings, in one of my mining articles in the Gazette. However, some years later I got lucky again and contacted a California park ranger who had rescued the original Empire Mine erection drawings for the Rowe. They had been just tossed down the shaft, and being a slope shaft, the ranger rescued all the material he could get his hands on. Photos of those drawings are what Bill Gustafson used for his kits.    
                          > >        I built NGNG nos. 5 & 6 in Fn3, and once upon a time a had them both in On3. Too bad I did not hang onto them! However, a plan is afoot to take an Accucraft # 268, do some detail work, build a tender, and them # 8 will grace the rails of my On3 layout once again. Never sell any of your toys!
                          > > George
                          > >  
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: Ron <ron@>
                          > > To: mailto:NGMMG%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 12:37 PM
                          > > Subject: [NGMMG] Hello to Everyone
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > >
                          > > Hi there I am a new member doing narrow gauge and mining. My name is Ron Richardson, and I live by the gigantic Union Pacific switching yard in Roseville CA. Roseville is located on Interstate 80 about half way between San Francisco and Reno. My great grandfather was vice president and sometimes roadmaster of the Nevada County Narrow Guauge RR which ran from Nevada City and Grass Valley in California southeast to the Southern Pacific rail head in Colfax for around 25 miles. The NCNG acquired the nick name "Never Come, Never Go" because I suspect it was not often on time. I am modeling the NCNG in On30. The NCNG died in 1944 because roads, cars, trucks and buses had replaced the need for a local short line rail road. Grass Valley was one of the mining centers of California. The Empire Mine, which is now a State Park, was the largest producer of gold in California. On occasion the NCNG hauled as much as $1 million in gold to the rail head in Colfax...
                          > > quite a load back in those days. I am in the process of modeling the Rowe Headframe and Hoist House in HO which was part of the Empire Mine complex. It is quite a kit and will probably take at least several months or more to complete. I am also modeling the NCNG yard in Nevada City which was the northern end of the rail road and had fewer switching lines and engine shops than it's twin city of Grass Valley. The two cities were 5 miles apart. The NCNG burned wood in its locomotives until the early 1900's when it gradually converted it's locomotives over to oil burners. Until the NCNG acquired a pair of 2-8-0's in 1933, it often double headed its 4-4-0 locomotives for hauling power.
                          > >
                          >
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