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RE: [NEDRA] Launch ramp "button" circuit (was: 60 ft times)

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  • Mike Willmon
    Thanks for the excellent description for the Launch Ramp button Bill. I may need to implement this in the Junior. The owners mentioned going with smaller
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 6, 2010
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      Thanks for the excellent description for the Launch Ramp button Bill.  I may need to implement this in the Junior.  The owners mentioned going with smaller tires and she may then have a traction control problem.  However it won’t help me in the Pinto since we’re using the HEPA L  But, we don’t seem to have traction problems with 850 lbs of lead ballast dead center over the rear end ;-)

       

      I think maybe Otmar could employ the ramp in the programming whereby if the “Launch Control” input were active the controller could do a piecewise step up of current on a cycle by cycle basis.  The options set up could have an “amps/millisecond” number or a “# Cycles to max current” where the controller could calculate the ramp based on those inputs.  Or you could do an exponential formula and have the user change the exponent coefficient to correspond to either a low start rate/high finish rate, linear, or high start rate/low finish rate.   The start point may be detection of 100% throttle after at least 1 second of zero throttle. The end point would be max amps.  User could simply program the coefficient and the duration of launch control in milliseconds (or cycles).

       

      An easier approach would be a simpler linear algorithm where the user enters a delay in the throttle ramp (call it “Throttle Delay”) and make the Zilla increment the throttle input by 10% each cycle until max motor current is reached.  The user defined “Throttle Delay” could represent the number of cycles the Zilla would impose the 10% increment.  For example:

      “Throttle Delay = 0”  is no delay, it operates just like it does now. 

      “Throttle Delay = 1”  the Zilla increments 10% of the input throttle value each cycle.  (10 cycles to full input throttle)

      “Throttle Delay = 2”  the Zilla increments 10% of the input throttle value every 2 cycles. (20 cycles to full input throttle)

      “Throttle Delay = 3”  the Zilla increments 10% of the input throttle value every 3 cycles. (30 cycles to full input throttle)

      “Throttle Delay = 10”  the Zilla increments 10% of the input throttle value every 10 cycles. (100 cycles to full input throttle)

      ….

      The max number for this Option setting would need to be determined by folks with high HP/Weight ratios that are likely to have traction control problems. But you can see that the number will not have to be too high since every number the option can be increased by increases the delay by 10 cycles.  Most folks with Daily Drivers will not need this option.  But Racers will buy it ;-)

       

      The safeties in these implementations would be that the Zilla has to detect all the normal start up sequences, as well as the “Launch Control” input and 100% throttle after a 1 second period of zero throttle (OK that last part might be debatable for road racers).   Maybe just 100% throttle and the Launch Control button would be all that is needed.  That way a guy could road race around the corners and push the “Launch Control” button and stick it to the floor and not have to worry about jerking the tires lose going around the bend ;-)

       

      Just my input FWIW.

       

      Mike

       


      From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bill Dube
      Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 2:39 PM
      To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [NEDRA] Launch ramp "button" circuit (was: 60 ft times)

       

       

      Quite a few folks asked for details and advice off-list, so I figured
      the interest is general enough that I would give all the basic
      details on the list.

      Keep in mind that this circuit is for a purpose-built drag racing
      vehicle only. It would be _really_ stupid to put this in a street
      car. You would want to put some sort of "arm" switch in parallel with
      this launch circuit to prevent anyone from accidentally hitting the
      button and launching the car. This is _real_ drag racing stuff, for
      purpose-built drag racing vehicles only. No joke.

      The way to implement your own ramp circuit is to get a ten-turn 2k
      pot with the locking number dial, a robust (not cheap)
      normally-closed momentary push button, four or five small toggle
      switches, and a several 15 volt (or greater) capacitors and a 4.7k
      ohm resistor. Get one each, 5 uF, 10 uF, 20 uF, and a 30 uF caps.
      Arrange the switches to allow you to select all or any or none of the
      caps in parallel.

      The N.C. push button should have a nice stiff mechanical "click"
      when you operate it.

      Wire the 4.7k ohm resistor in series with the 2k pot.

      Wire the capacitor switch network in parallel with the series
      combination of the 2k pot and 4.7k resistor. (Watch out, they are
      polarized, so be sure to connect them in the pot box circuit correctly.)

      Wire the NC momentary push button in parallel with all of this.

      Put this mess in series with the normal throttle pot.

      This set-up will allow you to push the button and launch the vehicle
      with a pre-set ramp. Keep in mind that the button will switch in FULL
      THROTTLE. Thus, you only use it on the drag strip and you use the
      controller motor current setting to select the maximum motor torque
      that the track conditions will allow without wheel spin.

      You parallel in more capacitance to slow the ramp down and you switch
      out capacitance to speed it up. Start with all the caps switched in
      and the controller motor current limit set really low, so you don't
      break something or lose control of the car. Bump up the motor current
      in careful steps.

      You set the pot nearly full resistance to begin with (like 6.7 k
      ohms total.) If the controller cuts out from a "hi-pot" error, back
      down in resistance until it doesn't trip that error, and then back
      down a touch more.

      You twiddle with the capacitance and the motor current to get the
      best possible launch and 60 foot times. If you are spinning down the
      track _after_ the launch, bump down the motor current. If you are
      spinning at the beginning of the launch, put in more capacitance
      until the spinning _just_ stops.

      If the track gets "sloppy" back down the motor current limit and
      maybe put in a touch more capacitance. If the track is really sticky,
      bump up the motor current limit and take out capacitance.

      Parts list:
      Digikey part number Part Description
      SP015-1-11-ND 10-Turn locking dial
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SP015-1-11-ND
      SP534-2.0K-ND 10-Turn 2k pot
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SP534-2.0K-ND
      P4.70KCACT-ND 4.7k 1/4 watt through-hole
      resistor (10 pack)
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P4.70KCACT-ND
      P812-ND Cap 4.7 uF
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P812-ND
      P813-ND Cap 10 uF
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P813-ND
      P814-ND Cap 22 uF
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P814-ND
      P815-ND Cap 33 uF
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P815-ND
      360-1896-ND Toggle switch (get quantity 4)
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=360-1896-ND

      Select a switch like one of these. It is important that you select a
      switch that is high-quality and is a geometry (and location) that can
      be mounted so that it won't be pushed accidentally. You don't want a
      cheap switch that will get flakey and cause the car to launch by
      itself. The SPDT switches tend to "click" crisply and generally are
      better quality.

      360-2400-ND
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=360-2400-ND
      360-2170-ND
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=360-2170-ND
      SW625-ND
      http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SW625-ND

      Again, this circuit will launch the vehicle full throttle if some
      idiot pushes the button when the key is on. You have to be very very
      very careful to NEVER turn on the vehicle without a qualified driver
      in the seat and 100% ready to drive. For this very reason, we always
      turn off the vehicle before the rider gets off. (Lanyard.) We always
      disconnect the battery completely via the service disconnect in the
      pits and in the trailer.

      Bill Dube'

    • Mike Willmon
      Olly, This was my thought too, exactly. Specifically in John’s current case (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will not get him anything.
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 6, 2010
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        Olly,

        This was my thought too, exactly.  Specifically in John’s current case (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will not get him anything.  And even if the Zilla was programmed to go to parallel the conditions would not even be met to make the shift.

         

        The reason the parallel shift is beneficial is because when the batteries are at their maximum power transfer point it allows the voltage to be increased (but output current to be split between the motors).  So the implication is that the Zombie is never getting to that half power point (where the voltage is ½ OCV)  ( I know Rich will argue with me but I dare him make me prove him wrong on an open forum – its basic power transmission theory ;-)  That means that if John were to load his batteries down to the point the terminal voltage drops to ½ OCV then he would benefit from the S/P shift again.  The reason he is not currently getting there is because he is toting the extra weight of 110 mile range ;-)  A pack that large barely even cringes at 1600 amps.  But that’s not his fault, that’s what he has to work with.  So I think the answer for his problem is obvious.  He needs to add another ……..

         

         

        ;-) Mike

         


        From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Oliver Young
        Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:26 AM
        To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:

         

         

        Yes Jack good question and a question I’ve been meaning to ask myself.

        So John where you running S/P shifting?

        My thinking is if you’ve got plenty of power (which you have) is it really beneficial to use S/P? Surely if you can keep the motor voltage in series up at 340V (170V per motor) parallel might not have any effect???

        Thoughts anyone?

        Olly

         

        From: NEDRA@yahoogroups. com [mailto: NEDRA@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Jack Knopf
        Sent: 05 August 2010 15:36
        To: NEDRA@yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:

         

         

        Nice work guys,

        I just was not clear on one thing,

        Were the 10.4 runs both still just with the motors in series and no parallel shift?

        Jack.

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:19 PM

        Subject: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:

         

         



        Sent from my iPhone


        Begin forwarded message:

        From: "C. Brown" <photogal@iglide. net>
        Date: August 3, 2010 12:14:39 PM PDT
        To: <Undisclosed- Recipient: ;>
        Subject: Photos are all up!  (^:

        Hi Everyone!

         

        The photos from your record-breaking EVent on  Friday - July 30th at P.I.R., are finally up on my Website.  (^:  I have a few more caption details to add, after reading the article in EV World, but all of the photos are there.  (^:  If you see anything that needs to be corrected on the comments, please let me know and I will change it.  (^:  I have left some blurry photos up, just because they tell a bit of the story.  After the sun goes down, it is much harder to get sharp photos on fast-moving vehicles.  (^:   I tend to 'over-shoot' my flash, when I get excited... O^%

         

        What a great thing to be there and witness/capture Zombie history being made!  Good job, everyone!  (^:

         

        Take care!  (^: Carol

         

         

      • lithiumstart
        Hi Everyone, Great efforts, results, and of course a great discussion! I feel motivated to operate my keyboard tonight, so here goes a stream of thought... I
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 7, 2010
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          Hi Everyone,
          Great efforts, results, and of course a great discussion!
          I feel motivated to operate my keyboard tonight, so here goes a stream of thought...

          I think there is one more point to be made here: John is using a battery pack that pushes the Zilla well over the published voltage limit (plus a nice stiff pack that isn't working very hard so it keeps a high voltage) which is why running in series mode for the length of the track makes sense. As soon as he starts upping the power, ie loading the pack down more, he won't have enough voltage to push his motors to their limits in series mode.

          The series parallel issue has been a frustrating problem for many people, because given the max voltage of many of the motors used (~170ish) two times that (340 for series mode) is too close to the voltage rating of the zilla (375) to be able to get anywhere close to peak power out of the batteries. If only the zilla went to about 650volts, but then people would want to run three motors in series, and Otmar already doesn't like testing at 375V :)

          I always chuckle when I hear people tell me how hard their car accelerates when it switches into parallel mode. The fact of the matter is that it only feels strong because their batteries were two weak to keep the voltage high enough to continue pushing 2000amps through the motors, and the current has dropped so low already, that 1000 fells like a surge. Finally, we get to see what it is like to be able to put the same amount into each motor towards the end of the track as you do at the start. And it was done with only one Zilla! Kudos for pushing the voltage limits John. That is certainly a risk, and certainly part of racing!

          I am interested to see what John does next with his car. I have heard mention of another Zilla on the shelf, and I'm sure it will go in the car soon, but how will he wire it, and is the battery pack going to stay in the same configuration?

          Option 1)
          One Zilla per motor. This probably won't make the car any faster, because the way it sits now, there is close to 2000amps on each motor for most (maybe all?) of the run, and the battery is able to push enough current while still delivering ~170V to each motor at the end of the track, despite them being in series. Oh, and this setup is 30lbs+ heavier due to the extra Zilla. The only rational for going this way that I can see would be to split the pack in half, and run in a lower voltage division, but I'm guessing that running WZ is more about going fast than fiddling around with different divisions.

          2) Two Zillas paralleled together, feeding the motors which are in series. This would give a max armature current of ~4000ish amps, but that massive current would only be effective at lower RPMs because the pack would now sag far below 340V, and would be unable to fully utilize the RPM and voltage limits of the motors. I'll bet a massive regear would be needed, and some major work to the brush leads etc. to extract all the performance from the batteries.

          3) Same as above, but with some creative wiring work, or maybe Otmar can enable some quadzilla features and he will be the only one that needs to be clever, making the Zillas essentially work as one 4000amp controller, AND have series parallel shifting. Downsides I see to this are of course the extra Zilla weight and the 300ms of shifting time. Figuring out a way to have the Zilla come out of the shift smoothly may start to be important with this amount of power. I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but maybe some ideas from Bill's analog throttle ramp could be used, or some godzilla code could come back to haunt the racetrack:)

          4) My favorite. Maybe:) Make a trizilla. Run the motors in parallel the whole time. This would give you 3000amps on each motor, have no shift point, and provide for easy future expansion! Note that batteries, motors, and controllers can be paralleled more or less as needed. This setup would be able to work the batteries and motors harder for more of the track than any of the other options. Adding more batteries would probably be the next step. After that, maybe another motor, and then another controller. Bring the WZ back up to its SLA weight:) The larger the percentage of weight of a car that is making power, the better.

          It occurs to me that the motors are going to be the weak point pretty soon again for all the DC racers. I can package enough power into 150lbs including case, BMS, etc to fully supply a single zilla down the track. At that weight, why not have 600lbs of batteries (more like 550 due to packing and overhead efficiencies), and a quadzilla, or more:) That type of weight is something we are used to dealing with. Think 60 hawkers!
          By the time someone buys all those batteries, buying the zillas won't seem THAT expensive. Lets see.... A battery like that would cost about 60K if someone paid me to put it together, plus 20k in Zillas, plus 20k in race prepped motors, plus a used, already certified dragster or car, plus some 'odds and ends'. Sounds like a 150k+ project. Certainly expensive, but not crazy for the strange world that is the world of racing.

          John, can you tell me the finished weight of your battery pack? Also, can you comment on the cost of bare Kokam cells?

          We have all been thinking about batteries for so long, and now they are really starting to shine. Time to go back to the motor/controller front!

          Alright, my fingers are done typing for now...

          Cheers,

          Thomas


          --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@...> wrote:
          >
          > Olly,
          >
          > This was my thought too, exactly. Specifically in John�s current case (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will
          > not get him anything. And even if the Zilla was programmed to go to parallel the conditions would not even be met to make the
          > shift.
          >
          >
          >
          > The reason the parallel shift is beneficial is because when the batteries are at their maximum power transfer point it allows the
          > voltage to be increased (but output current to be split between the motors). So the implication is that the Zombie is never getting
          > to that half power point (where the voltage is � OCV) ( I know Rich will argue with me but I dare him make me prove him wrong on an
          > open forum � its basic power transmission theory ;-) That means that if John were to load his batteries down to the point the
          > terminal voltage drops to � OCV then he would benefit from the S/P shift again. The reason he is not currently getting there is
          > because he is toting the extra weight of 110 mile range ;-) A pack that large barely even cringes at 1600 amps. But that�s not his
          > fault, that�s what he has to work with. So I think the answer for his problem is obvious. He needs to add another ��..
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ;-) Mike
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Young
          > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:26 AM
          > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yes Jack good question and a question I�ve been meaning to ask myself.
          >
          > So John where you running S/P shifting?
          >
          > My thinking is if you�ve got plenty of power (which you have) is it really beneficial to use S/P? Surely if you can keep the motor
          > voltage in series up at 340V (170V per motor) parallel might not have any effect???
          >
          > Thoughts anyone?
          >
          > Olly
          >
          >
          >
          > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Knopf
          > Sent: 05 August 2010 15:36
          > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Nice work guys,
          >
          > I just was not clear on one thing,
          >
          > Were the 10.4 runs both still just with the motors in series and no parallel shift?
          >
          > Jack.
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          >
          > From: John Wayland <mailto:jw@...>
          >
          > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups. <mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com> com
          >
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:19 PM
          >
          > Subject: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          >
          > Begin forwarded message:
          >
          > From: "C. Brown" <photogal@iglide. <mailto:photogal@...> net>
          > Date: August 3, 2010 12:14:39 PM PDT
          > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
          > Subject: Photos are all up! (^:
          >
          > Hi Everyone!
          >
          >
          >
          > The photos from your record-breaking EVent on Friday - July 30th at P.I.R., are finally up on my Website. (^: I have a few more
          > caption details to add, after reading the article in EV World, but all of the photos are there. (^: If you see anything that needs
          > to be corrected on the comments, please let me know and I will change it. (^: I have left some blurry photos up, just because they
          > tell a bit of the story. After the sun goes down, it is much harder to get sharp photos on fast-moving vehicles. (^: I tend to
          > 'over-shoot' my flash, when I get excited... O^%
          >
          >
          >
          > What a great thing to be there and witness/capture Zombie history being made! Good job, everyone! (^:
          >
          >
          >
          > Take care! (^: Carol
          >
        • Mike Willmon
          My thought is that it would be separate Zilla per motor. His batteries can clearly feed another Zilla so basically doubling the power to the motors. Each
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 7, 2010
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            My thought is that it would be separate Zilla per motor.  His batteries can clearly feed another Zilla so basically doubling the power to the motors.  Each motor gets independent control so no S/P shifting and you might lose 10 lbs or so of switching contactors and wiring.  I suppose you’d still need a reverse contactor set but that could be done with smaller gauge wires and some EV-100’s or something that basically weigh nothing.

             

            Funny you mention motors not taking the abuse.  I suppose it only takes kicking the motor dog a couple times and blowing up some motors to get his coffee soaked brain engaged.   Will be interesting to see what the next performance enhancer will be.  Maybe some forced cooling of the comms like has been discussed on this list not too long ago…  I can see spraying CO2 on the comms the whole way down the track to keep them cool.  People will wonder if that’s the new turbo pop off or something with the car hissing all the time.  I think any time you could mimic a useful gasser mod that looks the same in an electric would be a big help.  People are used to seeing high performance cars snort and roar a certain way…..I like joking with the gasser crowd that I’ll soon but a hood scoop and “blowers” on my electric motors J   Yeah a “blower” on an electric, that makes the well tuned gassers minds spin a little ;-)

             

            Mike

             


            From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of lithiumstart
            Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:46 AM
            To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [NEDRA] Re: White Zombie S/P Shifting, needed?

             

             



            Hi Everyone,
            Great efforts, results, and of course a great discussion!
            I feel motivated to operate my keyboard tonight, so here goes a stream of thought...

            I think there is one more point to be made here: John is using a battery pack that pushes the Zilla well over the published voltage limit (plus a nice stiff pack that isn't working very hard so it keeps a high voltage) which is why running in series mode for the length of the track makes sense. As soon as he starts upping the power, ie loading the pack down more, he won't have enough voltage to push his motors to their limits in series mode.

            The series parallel issue has been a frustrating problem for many people, because given the max voltage of many of the motors used (~170ish) two times that (340 for series mode) is too close to the voltage rating of the zilla (375) to be able to get anywhere close to peak power out of the batteries. If only the zilla went to about 650volts, but then people would want to run three motors in series, and Otmar already doesn't like testing at 375V :)

            I always chuckle when I hear people tell me how hard their car accelerates when it switches into parallel mode. The fact of the matter is that it only feels strong because their batteries were two weak to keep the voltage high enough to continue pushing 2000amps through the motors, and the current has dropped so low already, that 1000 fells like a surge. Finally, we get to see what it is like to be able to put the same amount into each motor towards the end of the track as you do at the start. And it was done with only one Zilla! Kudos for pushing the voltage limits John. That is certainly a risk, and certainly part of racing!

            I am interested to see what John does next with his car. I have heard mention of another Zilla on the shelf, and I'm sure it will go in the car soon, but how will he wire it, and is the battery pack going to stay in the same configuration?

            Option 1)
            One Zilla per motor. This probably won't make the car any faster, because the way it sits now, there is close to 2000amps on each motor for most (maybe all?) of the run, and the battery is able to push enough current while still delivering ~170V to each motor at the end of the track, despite them being in series. Oh, and this setup is 30lbs+ heavier due to the extra Zilla. The only rational for going this way that I can see would be to split the pack in half, and run in a lower voltage division, but I'm guessing that running WZ is more about going fast than fiddling around with different divisions.

            2) Two Zillas paralleled together, feeding the motors which are in series. This would give a max armature current of ~4000ish amps, but that massive current would only be effective at lower RPMs because the pack would now sag far below 340V, and would be unable to fully utilize the RPM and voltage limits of the motors. I'll bet a massive regear would be needed, and some major work to the brush leads etc. to extract all the performance from the batteries.

            3) Same as above, but with some creative wiring work, or maybe Otmar can enable some quadzilla features and he will be the only one that needs to be clever, making the Zillas essentially work as one 4000amp controller, AND have series parallel shifting. Downsides I see to this are of course the extra Zilla weight and the 300ms of shifting time. Figuring out a way to have the Zilla come out of the shift smoothly may start to be important with this amount of power. I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but maybe some ideas from Bill's analog throttle ramp could be used, or some godzilla code could come back to haunt the racetrack:)

            4) My favorite. Maybe:) Make a trizilla. Run the motors in parallel the whole time. This would give you 3000amps on each motor, have no shift point, and provide for easy future expansion! Note that batteries, motors, and controllers can be paralleled more or less as needed. This setup would be able to work the batteries and motors harder for more of the track than any of the other options. Adding more batteries would probably be the next step. After that, maybe another motor, and then another controller. Bring the WZ back up to its SLA weight:) The larger the percentage of weight of a car that is making power, the better.

            It occurs to me that the motors are going to be the weak point pretty soon again for all the DC racers. I can package enough power into 150lbs including case, BMS, etc to fully supply a single zilla down the track. At that weight, why not have 600lbs of batteries (more like 550 due to packing and overhead efficiencies), and a quadzilla, or more:) That type of weight is something we are used to dealing with. Think 60 hawkers!
            By the time someone buys all those batteries, buying the zillas won't seem THAT expensive. Lets see.... A battery like that would cost about 60K if someone paid me to put it together, plus 20k in Zillas, plus 20k in race prepped motors, plus a used, already certified dragster or car, plus some 'odds and ends'. Sounds like a 150k+ project. Certainly expensive, but not crazy for the strange world that is the world of racing.

            John, can you tell me the finished weight of your battery pack? Also, can you comment on the cost of bare Kokam cells?

            We have all been thinking about batteries for so long, and now they are really starting to shine. Time to go back to the motor/controller front!

            Alright, my fingers are done typing for now...

            Cheers,

            Thomas

            --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Will mon" <electrabishi@...> wrote:

            >
            > Olly,
            >
            > This was my thought too, exactly. Specifically in John�s current case
            (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will
            > not get him anything. And even if the Zilla was programmed to go to
            parallel the conditions would not even be met to make the
            > shift.
            >
            >
            >
            > The reason the parallel shift is beneficial is because when the batteries
            are at their maximum power transfer point it allows the
            > voltage to be increased (but output current to be split between the
            motors). So the implication is that the Zombie is never getting
            > to that half power point (where the voltage is � OCV) ( I know Rich will
            argue with me but I dare him make me prove him wrong on an
            > open forum � its basic power transmission theory ;-) That means that if
            John were to load his batteries down to the point the
            > terminal voltage drops to � OCV then he would benefit from the S/P shift
            again. The reason he is not currently getting there is
            > because he is toting the extra weight of 110 mile range ;-) A pack that
            large barely even cringes at 1600 amps. But that�s not his
            > fault, that�s what he has to work with. So I think the answer for his
            problem is obvious. He needs to add another ��..
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ;-) Mike
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Young
            > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:26 AM
            > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yes Jack good question and a question I�ve been meaning to ask myself.
            >
            > So John where you running S/P shifting?
            >
            > My thinking is if you�ve got plenty of power (which you have) is it
            really beneficial to use S/P? Surely if you can keep the motor
            > voltage in series up at 340V (170V per motor) parallel might not have any
            effect???
            >
            > Thoughts anyone?
            >
            > Olly
            >
            >
            >
            > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Knopf
            > Sent: 05 August 2010 15:36
            > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Nice work guys,
            >
            > I just was not clear on one thing,
            >
            > Were the 10.4 runs both still just with the motors in series and no
            parallel shift?
            >
            > Jack.
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            > From: John Wayland <mailto:jw@...>
            >
            > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups. <mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com>
            com
            >
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:19 PM
            >
            > Subject: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Sent from my iPhone
            >
            >
            > Begin forwarded message:
            >
            > From: "C. Brown" <photogal@iglide.
            <mailto:photogal@...> net>
            > Date: August 3, 2010 12:14:39 PM PDT
            > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
            > Subject: Photos are all up! (^:
            >
            > Hi Everyone!
            >
            >
            >
            > The photos from your record-breaking EVent on Friday - July 30th at
            P.I.R., are finally up on my Website. (^: I have a few more
            > caption details to add, after reading the article in EV World, but all of
            the photos are there. (^: If you see anything that needs
            > to be corrected on the comments, please let me know and I will change it.
            (^: I have left some blurry photos up, just because they
            > tell a bit of the story. After the sun goes down, it is much harder to get
            sharp photos on fast-moving vehicles. (^: I tend to
            > 'over-shoot' my flash, when I get excited... O^%
            >
            >
            >
            > What a great thing to be there and witness/capture Zombie history being
            made! Good job, everyone! (^:
            >
            >
            >
            > Take care! (^: Carol
            >

          • lithiumstart
            Hi Mike, You are proposing one zilla per motor. Can you say why you think WZ will go faster with that change? I think the motors will produce exactly the same
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 8, 2010
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              Hi Mike,

              You are proposing one zilla per motor.
              Can you say why you think WZ will go faster with that change?

              I think the motors will produce exactly the same amount of power with one Zilla per motor as they are now with one Zilla running two motors in series, but WZ would then have to haul around another Zilla, which would make WZ slower due to the weight!
              As the batteries are capable of more power than they are being used for now, WZ might be able to go faster by taking out batteries until it has just enough on board to still produce 170V@4000A=680kw while using one zilla per motor. The 170v and 4000a is obviously on the motor side, on the battery side it might look more like 284V and 2400A. WZ would then be faster if more weight can be removed from the battery pack than the Zilla added. I'm still hoping John well tell us how much the whole battery assembly weighs as it sits in the car now. Oh, and also an idea as to what the bare cell cost is would be nice too:) Oh, and what the official white zombie plan is for the next zilla?


              About the motors: I can't imagine that there would be much cooling possible with air during a 10 second race, or less! MAYBE with some super cold gas of some sort, but I'll bet heat usually isn't the problem if you start cold. I think the problems that people have with motors if they start cold are either mechanical (raised bars) or electrical (Arc overs), and not thermal issues. Maybe some thermal issues in the brush leads, but those can be beefed up pretty easily. There are a variety of ways to deal with arcing sparking and plasma problems, and various gasses could be very effective. I'm all for the smoke and sound associated with compressed gasses. Lets put on a show!

              -Thomas

              --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@...> wrote:
              >
              > My thought is that it would be separate Zilla per motor. His batteries can clearly feed another Zilla so basically doubling the
              > power to the motors. Each motor gets independent control so no S/P shifting and you might lose 10 lbs or so of switching contactors
              > and wiring. I suppose you�d still need a reverse contactor set but that could be done with smaller gauge wires and some EV-100�s or
              > something that basically weigh nothing.
              >
              >
              >
              > Funny you mention motors not taking the abuse. I suppose it only takes kicking the motor dog a couple times and blowing up some
              > motors to get his coffee soaked brain engaged. Will be interesting to see what the next performance enhancer will be. Maybe some
              > forced cooling of the comms like has been discussed on this list not too long ago� I can see spraying CO2 on the comms the whole
              > way down the track to keep them cool. People will wonder if that�s the new turbo pop off or something with the car hissing all the
              > time. I think any time you could mimic a useful gasser mod that looks the same in an electric would be a big help. People are used
              > to seeing high performance cars snort and roar a certain way�..I like joking with the gasser crowd that I�ll soon but a hood scoop
              > and �blowers� on my electric motors :-) Yeah a �blower� on an electric, that makes the well tuned gassers minds spin a little ;-)
              >
              >
              >
              > Mike
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lithiumstart
              > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:46 AM
              > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [NEDRA] Re: White Zombie S/P Shifting, needed?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Everyone,
              > Great efforts, results, and of course a great discussion!
              > I feel motivated to operate my keyboard tonight, so here goes a stream of thought...
              >
              > I think there is one more point to be made here: John is using a battery pack that pushes the Zilla well over the published voltage
              > limit (plus a nice stiff pack that isn't working very hard so it keeps a high voltage) which is why running in series mode for the
              > length of the track makes sense. As soon as he starts upping the power, ie loading the pack down more, he won't have enough voltage
              > to push his motors to their limits in series mode.
              >
              > The series parallel issue has been a frustrating problem for many people, because given the max voltage of many of the motors used
              > (~170ish) two times that (340 for series mode) is too close to the voltage rating of the zilla (375) to be able to get anywhere
              > close to peak power out of the batteries. If only the zilla went to about 650volts, but then people would want to run three motors
              > in series, and Otmar already doesn't like testing at 375V :)
              >
              > I always chuckle when I hear people tell me how hard their car accelerates when it switches into parallel mode. The fact of the
              > matter is that it only feels strong because their batteries were two weak to keep the voltage high enough to continue pushing
              > 2000amps through the motors, and the current has dropped so low already, that 1000 fells like a surge. Finally, we get to see what
              > it is like to be able to put the same amount into each motor towards the end of the track as you do at the start. And it was done
              > with only one Zilla! Kudos for pushing the voltage limits John. That is certainly a risk, and certainly part of racing!
              >
              > I am interested to see what John does next with his car. I have heard mention of another Zilla on the shelf, and I'm sure it will go
              > in the car soon, but how will he wire it, and is the battery pack going to stay in the same configuration?
              >
              > Option 1)
              > One Zilla per motor. This probably won't make the car any faster, because the way it sits now, there is close to 2000amps on each
              > motor for most (maybe all?) of the run, and the battery is able to push enough current while still delivering ~170V to each motor at
              > the end of the track, despite them being in series. Oh, and this setup is 30lbs+ heavier due to the extra Zilla. The only rational
              > for going this way that I can see would be to split the pack in half, and run in a lower voltage division, but I'm guessing that
              > running WZ is more about going fast than fiddling around with different divisions.
              >
              > 2) Two Zillas paralleled together, feeding the motors which are in series. This would give a max armature current of ~4000ish amps,
              > but that massive current would only be effective at lower RPMs because the pack would now sag far below 340V, and would be unable to
              > fully utilize the RPM and voltage limits of the motors. I'll bet a massive regear would be needed, and some major work to the brush
              > leads etc. to extract all the performance from the batteries.
              >
              > 3) Same as above, but with some creative wiring work, or maybe Otmar can enable some quadzilla features and he will be the only one
              > that needs to be clever, making the Zillas essentially work as one 4000amp controller, AND have series parallel shifting. Downsides
              > I see to this are of course the extra Zilla weight and the 300ms of shifting time. Figuring out a way to have the Zilla come out of
              > the shift smoothly may start to be important with this amount of power. I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but maybe some
              > ideas from Bill's analog throttle ramp could be used, or some godzilla code could come back to haunt the racetrack:)
              >
              > 4) My favorite. Maybe:) Make a trizilla. Run the motors in parallel the whole time. This would give you 3000amps on each motor, have
              > no shift point, and provide for easy future expansion! Note that batteries, motors, and controllers can be paralleled more or less
              > as needed. This setup would be able to work the batteries and motors harder for more of the track than any of the other options.
              > Adding more batteries would probably be the next step. After that, maybe another motor, and then another controller. Bring the WZ
              > back up to its SLA weight:) The larger the percentage of weight of a car that is making power, the better.
              >
              > It occurs to me that the motors are going to be the weak point pretty soon again for all the DC racers. I can package enough power
              > into 150lbs including case, BMS, etc to fully supply a single zilla down the track. At that weight, why not have 600lbs of batteries
              > (more like 550 due to packing and overhead efficiencies), and a quadzilla, or more:) That type of weight is something we are used to
              > dealing with. Think 60 hawkers!
              > By the time someone buys all those batteries, buying the zillas won't seem THAT expensive. Lets see.... A battery like that would
              > cost about 60K if someone paid me to put it together, plus 20k in Zillas, plus 20k in race prepped motors, plus a used, already
              > certified dragster or car, plus some 'odds and ends'. Sounds like a 150k+ project. Certainly expensive, but not crazy for the
              > strange world that is the world of racing.
              >
              > John, can you tell me the finished weight of your battery pack? Also, can you comment on the cost of bare Kokam cells?
              >
              > We have all been thinking about batteries for so long, and now they are really starting to shine. Time to go back to the
              > motor/controller front!
              >
              > Alright, my fingers are done typing for now...
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Thomas
              >
              > --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Olly,
              > >
              > > This was my thought too, exactly. Specifically in John�s current case (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will
              > > not get him anything. And even if the Zilla was programmed to go to parallel the conditions would not even be met to make the
              > > shift.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The reason the parallel shift is beneficial is because when the batteries are at their maximum power transfer point it allows the
              > > voltage to be increased (but output current to be split between the motors). So the implication is that the Zombie is never
              > getting
              > > to that half power point (where the voltage is � OCV) ( I know Rich will argue with me but I dare him make me prove him wrong on
              > an
              > > open forum � its basic power transmission theory ;-) That means that if John were to load his batteries down to the point the
              > > terminal voltage drops to � OCV then he would benefit from the S/P shift again. The reason he is not currently getting there is
              > > because he is toting the extra weight of 110 mile range ;-) A pack that large barely even cringes at 1600 amps. But that�s not
              > his
              > > fault, that�s what he has to work with. So I think the answer for his problem is obvious. He needs to add another ��..
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ;-) Mike
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _____
              > >
              > > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              > Behalf Of Oliver Young
              > > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:26 AM
              > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yes Jack good question and a question I�ve been meaning to ask myself.
              > >
              > > So John where you running S/P shifting?
              > >
              > > My thinking is if you�ve got plenty of power (which you have) is it really beneficial to use S/P? Surely if you can keep the
              > motor
              > > voltage in series up at 340V (170V per motor) parallel might not have any effect???
              > >
              > > Thoughts anyone?
              > >
              > > Olly
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              > Behalf Of Jack Knopf
              > > Sent: 05 August 2010 15:36
              > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: Re: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Nice work guys,
              > >
              > > I just was not clear on one thing,
              > >
              > > Were the 10.4 runs both still just with the motors in series and no parallel shift?
              > >
              > > Jack.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > >
              > > From: John Wayland <mailto:jw@>
              > >
              > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups. <mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> > com
              > >
              > > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:19 PM
              > >
              > > Subject: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Sent from my iPhone
              > >
              > >
              > > Begin forwarded message:
              > >
              > > From: "C. Brown" <photogal@iglide. <mailto:photogal@> net>
              > > Date: August 3, 2010 12:14:39 PM PDT
              > > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
              > > Subject: Photos are all up! (^:
              > >
              > > Hi Everyone!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The photos from your record-breaking EVent on Friday - July 30th at P.I.R., are finally up on my Website. (^: I have a few more
              > > caption details to add, after reading the article in EV World, but all of the photos are there. (^: If you see anything that needs
              > > to be corrected on the comments, please let me know and I will change it. (^: I have left some blurry photos up, just because they
              > > tell a bit of the story. After the sun goes down, it is much harder to get sharp photos on fast-moving vehicles. (^: I tend to
              > > 'over-shoot' my flash, when I get excited... O^%
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > What a great thing to be there and witness/capture Zombie history being made! Good job, everyone! (^:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Take care! (^: Carol
              > >
              >
            • t_perkins@ymail.com
              Hey guys, I m obviously new here. I m in the process of building an autocross/drag race street rod - have a thread on DIYEC. WZ was the car that convinced me
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 8, 2010
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              • 0 Attachment
                Hey guys, I'm obviously new here. I'm in the process of building an autocross/drag race street rod - have a thread on DIYEC. WZ was the car that convinced me to convert it to electric (it had a Chevy V8 going in previously). Kudos on the 10-sec pass! I am working on a forced-air cooling system that is similar to the ideas discussed here. It's going to look like an old vintage supercharger, on top of my motor (it's pretty big & will push 500+ cfm), is being "tuned" for good sound, and I have always planned to have a CO2 system for when internal motor temps rise. I plan to put a purge valve on it like the ICE NOS purge! :) It doesn't seem like heat would be a huge factor in a sub-10 sec pass, but since I plan to autocross too it should really help in my case.

                Todd

                --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "lithiumstart" <lithiumstart@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Mike,
                >
                > You are proposing one zilla per motor.
                > Can you say why you think WZ will go faster with that change?
                >
                > I think the motors will produce exactly the same amount of power with one Zilla per motor as they are now with one Zilla running two motors in series, but WZ would then have to haul around another Zilla, which would make WZ slower due to the weight!
                > As the batteries are capable of more power than they are being used for now, WZ might be able to go faster by taking out batteries until it has just enough on board to still produce 170V@4000A=680kw while using one zilla per motor. The 170v and 4000a is obviously on the motor side, on the battery side it might look more like 284V and 2400A. WZ would then be faster if more weight can be removed from the battery pack than the Zilla added. I'm still hoping John well tell us how much the whole battery assembly weighs as it sits in the car now. Oh, and also an idea as to what the bare cell cost is would be nice too:) Oh, and what the official white zombie plan is for the next zilla?
                >
                >
                > About the motors: I can't imagine that there would be much cooling possible with air during a 10 second race, or less! MAYBE with some super cold gas of some sort, but I'll bet heat usually isn't the problem if you start cold. I think the problems that people have with motors if they start cold are either mechanical (raised bars) or electrical (Arc overs), and not thermal issues. Maybe some thermal issues in the brush leads, but those can be beefed up pretty easily. There are a variety of ways to deal with arcing sparking and plasma problems, and various gasses could be very effective. I'm all for the smoke and sound associated with compressed gasses. Lets put on a show!
                >
                > -Thomas
                >
                > --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@> wrote:
                > >
                > > My thought is that it would be separate Zilla per motor. His batteries can clearly feed another Zilla so basically doubling the
                > > power to the motors. Each motor gets independent control so no S/P shifting and you might lose 10 lbs or so of switching contactors
                > > and wiring. I suppose you�d still need a reverse contactor set but that could be done with smaller gauge wires and some EV-100�s or
                > > something that basically weigh nothing.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Funny you mention motors not taking the abuse. I suppose it only takes kicking the motor dog a couple times and blowing up some
                > > motors to get his coffee soaked brain engaged. Will be interesting to see what the next performance enhancer will be. Maybe some
                > > forced cooling of the comms like has been discussed on this list not too long ago� I can see spraying CO2 on the comms the whole
                > > way down the track to keep them cool. People will wonder if that�s the new turbo pop off or something with the car hissing all the
                > > time. I think any time you could mimic a useful gasser mod that looks the same in an electric would be a big help. People are used
                > > to seeing high performance cars snort and roar a certain way�..I like joking with the gasser crowd that I�ll soon but a hood scoop
                > > and �blowers� on my electric motors :-) Yeah a �blower� on an electric, that makes the well tuned gassers minds spin a little ;-)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Mike
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > _____
                > >
                > > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lithiumstart
                > > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:46 AM
                > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [NEDRA] Re: White Zombie S/P Shifting, needed?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Everyone,
                > > Great efforts, results, and of course a great discussion!
                > > I feel motivated to operate my keyboard tonight, so here goes a stream of thought...
                > >
                > > I think there is one more point to be made here: John is using a battery pack that pushes the Zilla well over the published voltage
                > > limit (plus a nice stiff pack that isn't working very hard so it keeps a high voltage) which is why running in series mode for the
                > > length of the track makes sense. As soon as he starts upping the power, ie loading the pack down more, he won't have enough voltage
                > > to push his motors to their limits in series mode.
                > >
                > > The series parallel issue has been a frustrating problem for many people, because given the max voltage of many of the motors used
                > > (~170ish) two times that (340 for series mode) is too close to the voltage rating of the zilla (375) to be able to get anywhere
                > > close to peak power out of the batteries. If only the zilla went to about 650volts, but then people would want to run three motors
                > > in series, and Otmar already doesn't like testing at 375V :)
                > >
                > > I always chuckle when I hear people tell me how hard their car accelerates when it switches into parallel mode. The fact of the
                > > matter is that it only feels strong because their batteries were two weak to keep the voltage high enough to continue pushing
                > > 2000amps through the motors, and the current has dropped so low already, that 1000 fells like a surge. Finally, we get to see what
                > > it is like to be able to put the same amount into each motor towards the end of the track as you do at the start. And it was done
                > > with only one Zilla! Kudos for pushing the voltage limits John. That is certainly a risk, and certainly part of racing!
                > >
                > > I am interested to see what John does next with his car. I have heard mention of another Zilla on the shelf, and I'm sure it will go
                > > in the car soon, but how will he wire it, and is the battery pack going to stay in the same configuration?
                > >
                > > Option 1)
                > > One Zilla per motor. This probably won't make the car any faster, because the way it sits now, there is close to 2000amps on each
                > > motor for most (maybe all?) of the run, and the battery is able to push enough current while still delivering ~170V to each motor at
                > > the end of the track, despite them being in series. Oh, and this setup is 30lbs+ heavier due to the extra Zilla. The only rational
                > > for going this way that I can see would be to split the pack in half, and run in a lower voltage division, but I'm guessing that
                > > running WZ is more about going fast than fiddling around with different divisions.
                > >
                > > 2) Two Zillas paralleled together, feeding the motors which are in series. This would give a max armature current of ~4000ish amps,
                > > but that massive current would only be effective at lower RPMs because the pack would now sag far below 340V, and would be unable to
                > > fully utilize the RPM and voltage limits of the motors. I'll bet a massive regear would be needed, and some major work to the brush
                > > leads etc. to extract all the performance from the batteries.
                > >
                > > 3) Same as above, but with some creative wiring work, or maybe Otmar can enable some quadzilla features and he will be the only one
                > > that needs to be clever, making the Zillas essentially work as one 4000amp controller, AND have series parallel shifting. Downsides
                > > I see to this are of course the extra Zilla weight and the 300ms of shifting time. Figuring out a way to have the Zilla come out of
                > > the shift smoothly may start to be important with this amount of power. I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but maybe some
                > > ideas from Bill's analog throttle ramp could be used, or some godzilla code could come back to haunt the racetrack:)
                > >
                > > 4) My favorite. Maybe:) Make a trizilla. Run the motors in parallel the whole time. This would give you 3000amps on each motor, have
                > > no shift point, and provide for easy future expansion! Note that batteries, motors, and controllers can be paralleled more or less
                > > as needed. This setup would be able to work the batteries and motors harder for more of the track than any of the other options.
                > > Adding more batteries would probably be the next step. After that, maybe another motor, and then another controller. Bring the WZ
                > > back up to its SLA weight:) The larger the percentage of weight of a car that is making power, the better.
                > >
                > > It occurs to me that the motors are going to be the weak point pretty soon again for all the DC racers. I can package enough power
                > > into 150lbs including case, BMS, etc to fully supply a single zilla down the track. At that weight, why not have 600lbs of batteries
                > > (more like 550 due to packing and overhead efficiencies), and a quadzilla, or more:) That type of weight is something we are used to
                > > dealing with. Think 60 hawkers!
                > > By the time someone buys all those batteries, buying the zillas won't seem THAT expensive. Lets see.... A battery like that would
                > > cost about 60K if someone paid me to put it together, plus 20k in Zillas, plus 20k in race prepped motors, plus a used, already
                > > certified dragster or car, plus some 'odds and ends'. Sounds like a 150k+ project. Certainly expensive, but not crazy for the
                > > strange world that is the world of racing.
                > >
                > > John, can you tell me the finished weight of your battery pack? Also, can you comment on the cost of bare Kokam cells?
                > >
                > > We have all been thinking about batteries for so long, and now they are really starting to shine. Time to go back to the
                > > motor/controller front!
                > >
                > > Alright, my fingers are done typing for now...
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > Thomas
                > >
                > > --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Olly,
                > > >
                > > > This was my thought too, exactly. Specifically in John�s current case (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will
                > > > not get him anything. And even if the Zilla was programmed to go to parallel the conditions would not even be met to make the
                > > > shift.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The reason the parallel shift is beneficial is because when the batteries are at their maximum power transfer point it allows the
                > > > voltage to be increased (but output current to be split between the motors). So the implication is that the Zombie is never
                > > getting
                > > > to that half power point (where the voltage is � OCV) ( I know Rich will argue with me but I dare him make me prove him wrong on
                > > an
                > > > open forum � its basic power transmission theory ;-) That means that if John were to load his batteries down to the point the
                > > > terminal voltage drops to � OCV then he would benefit from the S/P shift again. The reason he is not currently getting there is
                > > > because he is toting the extra weight of 110 mile range ;-) A pack that large barely even cringes at 1600 amps. But that�s not
                > > his
                > > > fault, that�s what he has to work with. So I think the answer for his problem is obvious. He needs to add another ��..
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ;-) Mike
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > _____
                > > >
                > > > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                > > Behalf Of Oliver Young
                > > > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:26 AM
                > > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yes Jack good question and a question I�ve been meaning to ask myself.
                > > >
                > > > So John where you running S/P shifting?
                > > >
                > > > My thinking is if you�ve got plenty of power (which you have) is it really beneficial to use S/P? Surely if you can keep the
                > > motor
                > > > voltage in series up at 340V (170V per motor) parallel might not have any effect???
                > > >
                > > > Thoughts anyone?
                > > >
                > > > Olly
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                > > Behalf Of Jack Knopf
                > > > Sent: 05 August 2010 15:36
                > > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Subject: Re: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Nice work guys,
                > > >
                > > > I just was not clear on one thing,
                > > >
                > > > Were the 10.4 runs both still just with the motors in series and no parallel shift?
                > > >
                > > > Jack.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > >
                > > > From: John Wayland <mailto:jw@>
                > > >
                > > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups. <mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> > com
                > > >
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:19 PM
                > > >
                > > > Subject: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Sent from my iPhone
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Begin forwarded message:
                > > >
                > > > From: "C. Brown" <photogal@iglide. <mailto:photogal@> net>
                > > > Date: August 3, 2010 12:14:39 PM PDT
                > > > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
                > > > Subject: Photos are all up! (^:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Everyone!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The photos from your record-breaking EVent on Friday - July 30th at P.I.R., are finally up on my Website. (^: I have a few more
                > > > caption details to add, after reading the article in EV World, but all of the photos are there. (^: If you see anything that needs
                > > > to be corrected on the comments, please let me know and I will change it. (^: I have left some blurry photos up, just because they
                > > > tell a bit of the story. After the sun goes down, it is much harder to get sharp photos on fast-moving vehicles. (^: I tend to
                > > > 'over-shoot' my flash, when I get excited... O^%
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > What a great thing to be there and witness/capture Zombie history being made! Good job, everyone! (^:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Take care! (^: Carol
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Hank Buettner
                I have to chime in here. I have been reading several posts that talk about C02 cooling. Are we not in this, in part, to lower C02 emissions? Will we not be
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 8, 2010
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                  I have to chime in here.  I have been reading several posts that talk about C02 cooling.  Are we not in this, in part, to lower C02 emissions?  Will we not be giving an opening to the gassers to call use hypocrites?
                   
                  Just a thought!
                   
                  hank


                  From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t_perkins@...
                  Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 3:54 AM
                  To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [NEDRA] Re: White Zombie S/P Shifting, needed?

                   

                  Hey guys, I'm obviously new here. I'm in the process of building an autocross/drag race street rod - have a thread on DIYEC. WZ was the car that convinced me to convert it to electric (it had a Chevy V8 going in previously). Kudos on the 10-sec pass! I am working on a forced-air cooling system that is similar to the ideas discussed here. It's going to look like an old vintage supercharger, on top of my motor (it's pretty big & will push 500+ cfm), is being "tuned" for good sound, and I have always planned to have a CO2 system for when internal motor temps rise. I plan to put a purge valve on it like the ICE NOS purge! :) It doesn't seem like heat would be a huge factor in a sub-10 sec pass, but since I plan to autocross too it should really help in my case.

                  Todd

                  --- In NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "lithiumstart" <lithiumstart@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi
                  Mike,
                  >
                  > You are proposing one zilla per motor.
                  > Can you
                  say why you think WZ will go faster with that change?
                  >
                  > I think
                  the motors will produce exactly the same amount of power with one Zilla per motor as they are now with one Zilla running two motors in series, but WZ would then have to haul around another Zilla, which would make WZ slower due to the weight!
                  > As the batteries are capable of more power than they are being
                  used for now, WZ might be able to go faster by taking out batteries until it has just enough on board to still produce 170V@4000A=680kw while using one zilla per motor. The 170v and 4000a is obviously on the motor side, on the battery side it might look more like 284V and 2400A. WZ would then be faster if more weight can be removed from the battery pack than the Zilla added. I'm still hoping John well tell us how much the whole battery assembly weighs as it sits in the car now. Oh, and also an idea as to what the bare cell cost is would be nice too:) Oh, and what the official white zombie plan is for the next zilla?
                  >
                  >
                  > About the motors: I can't imagine that there would be much
                  cooling possible with air during a 10 second race, or less! MAYBE with some super cold gas of some sort, but I'll bet heat usually isn't the problem if you start cold. I think the problems that people have with motors if they start cold are either mechanical (raised bars) or electrical (Arc overs), and not thermal issues. Maybe some thermal issues in the brush leads, but those can be beefed up pretty easily. There are a variety of ways to deal with arcing sparking and plasma problems, and various gasses could be very effective. I'm all for the smoke and sound associated with compressed gasses. Lets put on a show!
                  >
                  > -Thomas
                  >
                  > --- In
                  href="mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com">NEDRA@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My thought is that it
                  would be separate Zilla per motor. His batteries can clearly feed another Zilla so basically doubling the
                  > > power to the motors. Each motor gets
                  independent control so no S/P shifting and you might lose 10 lbs or so of switching contactors
                  > > and wiring. I suppose you�d still need a
                  reverse contactor set but that could be done with smaller gauge wires and some EV-100�s or
                  > > something that basically weigh nothing.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Funny you mention motors not taking
                  the abuse. I suppose it only takes kicking the motor dog a couple times and blowing up some
                  > > motors to get his coffee soaked brain engaged. Will
                  be interesting to see what the next performance enhancer will be. Maybe some
                  > > forced cooling of the comms like has been discussed on this
                  list not too long ago� I can see spraying CO2 on the comms the whole
                  > > way down the track to keep them cool. People will wonder if that�s the
                  new turbo pop off or something with the car hissing all the
                  > > time. I
                  think any time you could mimic a useful gasser mod that looks the same in an electric would be a big help. People are used
                  > > to seeing high
                  performance cars snort and roar a certain way�..I like joking with the gasser crowd that I�ll soon but a hood scoop
                  > > and �blowers� on my
                  electric motors :-) Yeah a �blower� on an electric, that makes the well tuned gassers minds spin a little ;-)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Mike
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _____
                  > >
                  > > From:
                  href="mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com">NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lithiumstart
                  > > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:46 AM
                  > >
                  To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [NEDRA] Re: White Zombie S/P Shifting, needed?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Everyone,
                  > > Great efforts, results, and of
                  course a great discussion!
                  > > I feel motivated to operate my keyboard
                  tonight, so here goes a stream of thought...
                  > >
                  > > I think
                  there is one more point to be made here: John is using a battery pack that pushes the Zilla well over the published voltage
                  > > limit (plus a nice
                  stiff pack that isn't working very hard so it keeps a high voltage) which is why running in series mode for the
                  > > length of the track makes sense. As
                  soon as he starts upping the power, ie loading the pack down more, he won't have enough voltage
                  > > to push his motors to their limits in series mode.
                  > >
                  > > The series parallel issue has been a frustrating
                  problem for many people, because given the max voltage of many of the motors used
                  > > (~170ish) two times that (340 for series mode) is too close to
                  the voltage rating of the zilla (375) to be able to get anywhere
                  > >
                  close to peak power out of the batteries. If only the zilla went to about 650volts, but then people would want to run three motors
                  > > in series,
                  and Otmar already doesn't like testing at 375V :)
                  > >
                  > > I
                  always chuckle when I hear people tell me how hard their car accelerates when it switches into parallel mode. The fact of the
                  > > matter is that it only
                  feels strong because their batteries were two weak to keep the voltage high enough to continue pushing
                  > > 2000amps through the motors, and the
                  current has dropped so low already, that 1000 fells like a surge. Finally, we get to see what
                  > > it is like to be able to put the same amount into
                  each motor towards the end of the track as you do at the start. And it was done
                  > > with only one Zilla! Kudos for pushing the voltage limits
                  John. That is certainly a risk, and certainly part of racing!
                  > >
                  > > I am interested to see what John does next with his car. I have
                  heard mention of another Zilla on the shelf, and I'm sure it will go
                  > > in the car soon, but how will he wire it, and is the battery pack going to
                  stay in the same configuration?
                  > >
                  > > Option 1)
                  > > One Zilla per motor. This probably won't make the car any faster, because
                  the way it sits now, there is close to 2000amps on each
                  > > motor for
                  most (maybe all?) of the run, and the battery is able to push enough current while still delivering ~170V to each motor at
                  > > the end of the track,
                  despite them being in series. Oh, and this setup is 30lbs+ heavier due to the extra Zilla. The only rational
                  > > for going this way that I can see
                  would be to split the pack in half, and run in a lower voltage division, but I'm guessing that
                  > > running WZ is more about going fast than fiddling
                  around with different divisions.
                  > >
                  > > 2) Two Zillas
                  paralleled together, feeding the motors which are in series. This would give a max armature current of ~4000ish amps,
                  > > but that massive current
                  would only be effective at lower RPMs because the pack would now sag far below 340V, and would be unable to
                  > > fully utilize the RPM and voltage
                  limits of the motors. I'll bet a massive regear would be needed, and some major work to the brush
                  > > leads etc. to extract all the performance from
                  the batteries.
                  > >
                  > > 3) Same as above, but with some
                  creative wiring work, or maybe Otmar can enable some quadzilla features and he will be the only one
                  > > that needs to be clever, making the Zillas
                  essentially work as one 4000amp controller, AND have series parallel shifting. Downsides
                  > > I see to this are of course the extra Zilla weight and
                  the 300ms of shifting time. Figuring out a way to have the Zilla come out of
                  > > the shift smoothly may start to be important with this amount of
                  power. I'm not sure how this would be implemented, but maybe some
                  > >
                  ideas from Bill's analog throttle ramp could be used, or some godzilla code could come back to haunt the racetrack:)
                  > >
                  > > 4) My
                  favorite. Maybe:) Make a trizilla. Run the motors in parallel the whole time. This would give you 3000amps on each motor, have
                  > > no shift point,
                  and provide for easy future expansion! Note that batteries, motors, and controllers can be paralleled more or less
                  > > as needed. This setup
                  would be able to work the batteries and motors harder for more of the track than any of the other options.
                  > > Adding more batteries would probably be
                  the next step. After that, maybe another motor, and then another controller. Bring the WZ
                  > > back up to its SLA weight:) The larger the percentage
                  of weight of a car that is making power, the better.
                  > >
                  > >
                  It occurs to me that the motors are going to be the weak point pretty soon again for all the DC racers. I can package enough power
                  > > into 150lbs
                  including case, BMS, etc to fully supply a single zilla down the track. At that weight, why not have 600lbs of batteries
                  > > (more like 550 due to
                  packing and overhead efficiencies), and a quadzilla, or more:) That type of weight is something we are used to
                  > > dealing with. Think 60
                  hawkers!
                  > > By the time someone buys all those batteries, buying the
                  zillas won't seem THAT expensive. Lets see.... A battery like that would
                  > > cost about 60K if someone paid me to put it together, plus 20k in Zillas,
                  plus 20k in race prepped motors, plus a used, already
                  > > certified
                  dragster or car, plus some 'odds and ends'. Sounds like a 150k+ project. Certainly expensive, but not crazy for the
                  > > strange world that is
                  the world of racing.
                  > >
                  > > John, can you tell me the
                  finished weight of your battery pack? Also, can you comment on the cost of bare Kokam cells?
                  > >
                  > > We have all been thinking about
                  batteries for so long, and now they are really starting to shine. Time to go back to the
                  > > motor/controller front!
                  > >
                  > >
                  Alright, my fingers are done typing for now...
                  > >
                  > >
                  Cheers,
                  > >
                  > > Thomas
                  > >
                  > > --- In
                  href="mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com">NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mike Willmon" <electrabishi@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Olly,
                  > > >
                  > > > This was my thought too, exactly. Specifically in John�s current case
                  (pun intended), you are correct. Shifting to parallel will
                  > > > not
                  get him anything. And even if the Zilla was programmed to go to parallel the conditions would not even be met to make the
                  > > > shift.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The reason
                  the parallel shift is beneficial is because when the batteries are at their maximum power transfer point it allows the
                  > > > voltage to be
                  increased (but output current to be split between the motors). So the implication is that the Zombie is never
                  > > getting
                  > > >
                  to that half power point (where the voltage is � OCV) ( I know Rich will argue with me but I dare him make me prove him wrong on
                  > > an
                  > > > open forum � its basic power transmission theory ;-) That means that if
                  John were to load his batteries down to the point the
                  > > > terminal
                  voltage drops to � OCV then he would benefit from the S/P shift again. The reason he is not currently getting there is
                  > > > because he is
                  toting the extra weight of 110 mile range ;-) A pack that large barely even cringes at 1600 amps. But that�s not
                  > > his
                  > > > fault,
                  that�s what he has to work with. So I think the answer for his problem is obvious. He needs to add another ��..
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ;-)
                  Mike
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  _____
                  > > >
                  > > > From:
                  href="mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com">NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  > > Behalf Of Oliver
                  Young
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:26 AM
                  > > > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Subject: RE: [NEDRA]
                  Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes Jack good
                  question and a question I�ve been meaning to ask myself.
                  > > >
                  > > > So John where you running S/P shifting?
                  > > >
                  > > > My thinking is if you�ve got plenty of power (which you
                  have) is it really beneficial to use S/P? Surely if you can keep the
                  > > motor
                  > > > voltage in series up at 340V (170V per motor)
                  parallel might not have any effect???
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  Thoughts anyone?
                  > > >
                  > > > Olly
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > From:
                  href="mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com">NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  > > Behalf Of Jack
                  Knopf
                  > > > Sent: 05 August 2010 15:36
                  > > > To:
                  href="mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com">NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Subject: Re: [NEDRA]
                  Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Nice work
                  guys,
                  > > >
                  > > > I just was not clear on one
                  thing,
                  > > >
                  > > > Were the 10.4 runs both still just
                  with the motors in series and no parallel shift?
                  > > >
                  > > > Jack.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > >
                  > > > From:
                  John Wayland <mailto:jw@>
                  > > >
                  > > > To:
                  NEDRA@yahoogroups. <mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com <mailto:NEDRA%40yahoogroups.com> > com
                  > > >
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:19 PM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  Subject: [NEDRA] Fwd: Photos are all up! (^:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Sent from my iPhone
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Begin forwarded message:
                  > > >
                  > > > From: "C. Brown" <photogal@iglide.
                  <mailto:photogal@> net>
                  > > > Date: August 3, 2010 12:14:39
                  PM PDT
                  > > > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
                  > > >
                  Subject: Photos are all up! (^:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi
                  Everyone!
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The photos from your record-breaking EVent on Friday - July 30th at P.I.R.,
                  are finally up on my Website. (^: I have a few more
                  > > > caption
                  details to add, after reading the article in EV World, but all of the photos are there. (^: If you see anything that needs
                  > > > to be corrected on
                  the comments, please let me know and I will change it. (^: I have left some blurry photos up, just because they
                  > > > tell a bit of the story.
                  After the sun goes down, it is much harder to get sharp photos on fast-moving vehicles. (^: I tend to
                  > > > 'over-shoot' my flash, when I get
                  excited... O^%
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > What a great thing to be there and witness/capture Zombie history
                  being made! Good job, everyone! (^:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Take care! (^: Carol
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >

                • Tom Saxton
                  Where does the CO2 come from? If it s condensed from the atmosphere, or captured from some industrial process that would otherwise vent into the atmosphere,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 8, 2010
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                    Where does the CO2 come from? If it's condensed from the atmosphere, or
                    captured from some industrial process that would otherwise vent into the
                    atmosphere, then using it for cooling is carbon neutral (give or take the
                    energy used to compress and transport the gas).

                    Even if that's the case, it could still be a perception problem.

                    --
                    Tom Saxton
                    tomsax@...

                    on 8/8/10 9:06 AM, Hank Buettner wrote:

                    > I have to chime in here. I have been reading several posts that talk about
                    > C02 cooling. Are we not in this, in part, to lower C02 emissions? Will we
                    > not be giving an opening to the gassers to call use hypocrites?
                    >
                    > Just a thought!
                    >
                    > hank
                  • Hansi
                    We have been using cooling for the Silver Giant both last and this year. It has been with CO2 as dry ice picked up from a friendly sponsor
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 8, 2010
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                      We have been using cooling for the Silver Giant both last and this year.

                      It has been with CO2 as dry ice picked up from a friendly sponsor:

                      http://hansi555.jalbum.net/Veidec-Raceway-June-2010/

                       

                      or as a cold water system with a isolated tank filled with ice water, a build-in pump and 4 speciel thermo-adapters adjacent to the 4 engines and then connected to 4 hoses, one for each motor.

                       

                      We have calculated that if you could cool the engines to -80°C we would gain around +10% output.

                       

                      We do this to be as quick as possible as all the other things we do – 2 stage gearbox, changing the magnet field, using tyre warmer on rear wheel, heating the battery pack – we don’t think much about this environmental thing, all racing and record breaking is connected with an excessive use of ressources – tha bike arive on a trailer, pulled by a gasoline car that have been driving 120 km back and forth only to realise that rain has closed the track for the day, then going again next week and etc etc.

                       

                      So using a little CO2 for cooling will not change anything. However breaking records with EVs will bring attention and might help the general publics view and interest of maybe in the not do far future buy an EV them selves.

                       

                       

                      MVH/Best Regards

                      Hans-Henrik Thomsen

                      TLF: +45 4098 3355

                       

                      True Cousins - anything on wheels

                      www.wroum.dk  

                       

                      NEDRA member #288

                      --> World class electric drag racing: www.nedra.com

                       

                       


                      Fra: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tom Saxton
                      Sendt: 8. august 2010 18:27
                      Til: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: [NEDRA] CO2 Cooling

                       

                       

                      Where does the CO2 come from? If it's condensed from the atmosphere, or
                      captured from some industrial process that would otherwise vent into the
                      atmosphere, then using it for cooling is carbon neutral (give or take the
                      energy used to compress and transport the gas).

                      Even if that's the case, it could still be a perception problem.

                      --
                      Tom Saxton
                      tomsax@...

                      on 8/8/10 9:06 AM, Hank Buettner wrote:

                      > I have to chime in here. I have been reading several posts that talk about
                      > C02 cooling. Are we not in this, in part, to lower C02 emissions? Will we
                      > not be giving an opening to the gassers to call use hypocrites?
                      >
                      > Just a thought!
                      >
                      > hank

                    • dave cover
                      All this talk of CO2 cooling has me wondering about the thermal implications. If you take something very hot and then spray it with something very cold, don t
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 8, 2010
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                        All this talk of CO2 cooling has me wondering about the thermal implications. If you take something very hot and then spray it with something very cold, don't you risk breaking or cracking things. In particular I'm thinking of the non-metallic parts, like the brushes or the comm with it's mica inserts. Think about what happens when you take a rock out of a fire and throw it in some water. Kaboom. Instead of one rock you have many. Are these parts at risk of damage from too rapid cooling? Just asking, don't know.

                        Also, are you cooling with liquid CO2 of just the gas?

                        Dave Cover

                        On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Hansi <hansi@...> wrote:
                         

                        We have been using cooling for the Silver Giant both last and this year.

                        It has been with CO2 as dry ice picked up from a friendly sponsor:

                        http://hansi555.jalbum.net/Veidec-Raceway-June-2010/

                         

                        or as a cold water system with a isolated tank filled with ice water, a build-in pump and 4 speciel thermo-adapters adjacent to the 4 engines and then connected to 4 hoses, one for each motor.

                         

                        We have calculated that if you could cool the engines to -80°C we would gain around +10% output.

                         

                        We do this to be as quick as possible as all the other things we do – 2 stage gearbox, changing the magnet field, using tyre warmer on rear wheel, heating the battery pack – we don’t think much about this environmental thing, all racing and record breaking is connected with an excessive use of ressources – tha bike arive on a trailer, pulled by a gasoline car that have been driving 120 km back and forth only to realise that rain has closed the track for the day, then going again next week and etc etc.

                         

                        So using a little CO2 for cooling will not change anything. However breaking records with EVs will bring attention and might help the general publics view and interest of maybe in the not do far future buy an EV them selves.

                         

                         

                        MVH/Best Regards

                        Hans-Henrik Thomsen

                        TLF: +45 4098 3355

                         

                        True Cousins - anything on wheels

                        www.wroum.dk  

                         

                        NEDRA member #288

                        --> World class electric drag racing: www.nedra.com

                         

                         


                        Fra: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Tom Saxton
                        Sendt: 8. august 2010 18:27
                        Til: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: Re: [NEDRA] CO2 Cooling

                         

                         

                        Where does the CO2 come from? If it's condensed from the atmosphere, or
                        captured from some industrial process that would otherwise vent into the
                        atmosphere, then using it for cooling is carbon neutral (give or take the
                        energy used to compress and transport the gas).

                        Even if that's the case, it could still be a perception problem.

                        --
                        Tom Saxton
                        tomsax@...

                        on 8/8/10 9:06 AM, Hank Buettner wrote:

                        > I have to chime in here. I have been reading several posts that talk about
                        > C02 cooling. Are we not in this, in part, to lower C02 emissions? Will we
                        > not be giving an opening to the gassers to call use hypocrites?
                        >
                        > Just a thought!
                        >
                        > hank




                        --
                        http://www.evalbum.com/2149
                      • John Wayland
                        Hello to All, Perusing my junk mail file, I came cross a couple of emails that were for some reason, diverted into it and I never saw them until now. Though
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 29, 2010
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                          Hello to All,

                          Perusing my junk mail file, I came cross a couple of emails that were for some reason, diverted into it and I never saw them until now.
                          Though many of the answers to the questions raised here are at my web site's 'White Zombie History' in the 2010 section, I'll take some of them on. In addition, I've included what I've been up to in my back yard EV laboratory recently.

                          On Aug. 8th lithiumstart wrote:
                           

                          Hi Mike,

                          You are proposing one zilla per motor. Can you say why you think WZ will go faster with that change? I think the motors will produce exactly the same amount of power with one Zilla per motor as they are now with one Zilla running two motors in series, but WZ would then have to haul around another Zilla, which would make WZ slower due to the weight!


                          With the powerful LiPol pack now in the car  and the promise of a heady 2,400 amps available, I have planned all along to eventually run twin Zillas, with the idea to do it only when we had wrung-out all the speed and power we could get from the single Zilla configuration...considering we were up against the rev limiter for the final 2 seconds of our twin 10.4 runs, it's obvious we're not to that point yet :-)  At this time with things, I agree with Thomas. Instead of adding the extra 30 lbs. and complexity of a second Z2K - even though I have a spare Z2K on the shelf and there's enough battery power to feed twin Z2Ks, I am instead pulling out the pair of parallel contactors, various relay controls and brackets, and the extra heavy cables that make up the series/parallel setup, shaving off ~ 20 lbs. of weight. This will lighten the car, simplify the wiring, and really clean up the under-hood area as well. We believe there's more performance to be extracted just the way the car is by finding the perfect gear ratio, so for now that other Z2K will remain on the shelf.
                          On another point, it's weird having been one of the first to use series-parallel motor shifting - used to do it manually with the tweaked 1400 amp Gozilla controller, and considering that I had been involved with Otmar in the earliest concept-design stages of the Zilla line of controllers and that I have ben a big proponent of the effect, to now be hard wiring the car in series mode, but the batteries are so stiff there's just no need to do the parallel shift anymore.


                          As the batteries are capable of more power than they are being used for now, WZ might be able to go faster by taking out batteries until it has just enough on board to still produce 170V@4000A=680kw while using one zilla per motor. The 170v and 4000a is obviously on the motor side, on the battery side it might look more like 284V and 2400A. WZ would then be faster if more weight can be removed from the battery pack than the Zilla added.


                          As to taking out batteries, that's a definite 'no'. Thomas could be correct in that doing so the lighter car would be even quicker - the Dow Kokams certainly have the suds to crank out higher amps as would be required with a smaller pack at lower voltage, but pulling batteries means dropping the car's range capabilities. There's still more performance to be had with the current full sized pack configuration, so a smaller lower voltage pack isn't part of the plan. The Zombie's mission has always been to dispel EV myth that EVs are slow, dull, and boring, and through demonstrated performance show that they are exactly the opposite and are in fact, fast, fun, and exciting. With the change to these powerful Dow Kokam cells we've now added 100+ mile range to the mix, so we're underscoring the 'street legal' part of the Zombie's capabilities. In addition to the most obvious feature of being running low 10s in a street legal car driven to and from the track (no trailer needed), we also remove the 'have to charge between runs' stigma as we drive past our pit area and return to the staging lanes to run again and again. Perhaps the best exclamation mark we could put on things though, is having a 10 second electric car that can also run 100+ miles per charge on the open highway! Removing batteries would negate these attributes. We feel that we can run deeper into the low 10s and possibly even into the high 9s without resorting to pulling batteries and reducing the pack's 22.7 kWh storage capacity. If the Zombie was in the modified conversion class and the only goal was to go as quickly as possible in the 1/4 mile, in addition to a downsized battery pack there would be Lexan windows, a gutted and stripped interior, and other weight reducing efforts... I have no desire to do this. Instead, the car's fit, finish and overall look will continue to be refined as it becomes an even better street car. We are very close to having a body and paint sponsor, and with that type of make-over comes a new headliner, new carpets, and new interior materials that will bring the Zombie closer to the Meanie's look and feel...Don't worry, the sponsor's stickers will go back on :-)

                          On the pair of 10.4 runs, data extracted from the Bruce Sherry-Manzanita Micro BMS indicated the Dow Kokam cells had a peak output of 539 kW of power for 722 hp of electrical energy from the pack, so there's still quite a bit more battery power to tap into, if we decide to access it. As mentioned, we were on the rev limiter the last 2 seconds of those 10.4 second runs. Tim felt it flatten out cease accelerating, the data graph posted at my web site confirms this, and so does a mph calculator that's + or - accurate to within 1% that shows that with the 3:70 gear and the 6600 rpm limit we chose, the top speed of the Zombie was held to 122 mph - we did 121 and some change! That same calculator shows that with a 3:50 ratio and the same rpm limit the car has the capability to hit 129 mph (if there's enough hp to get the job done). We are now doing this gear ratio change - going 'taller' again (but numerically lower) from the 3:70 ratio to the new 3:50 gear set. We're confident we won't need to turn up the juice to go quicker. The trap speed should increase to somewhere between 126 mph and the rev-limited 129 mph that the 3:50 gears provide. The big question is, how will yet another change to taller gears affect the hole shot? In gas cars, it's predictable that when you go taller in gears, the hole shot gets worse but the top end gets better. EVs have all that luscious bottom end torque though, so the same effect does not necessarily apply. In the Zombie, as we've gone taller in gear ratio the hole shot has improved along with the top end. Going from the 4:11 gear set to the 3:70 set the 60 ft. went from 1.70 - 1.72, to 1.61 - 1.64, then when we got the bugs worked out, it dropped to 1.58 and we got that scream'n 6.487 @ 107 mph 1/8 mile! Now we're going to the 3:50 ratio, but where does the bell curve start going over the top and down the other side? It's possible the hole shot and the 1/8 mile might suffer by going taller with the gears, but my gut tells me it won't...guess we'll have to wait until sept. 10th to find out! If the hole shots doesn't get better while also not getting worse, the ET should still drop to very low 10s solely because the car will continue to pull those last 2 seconds at the far end of the track and break through the 125 mph barrier for street cars. If the hole shot worsens but the top end is better, the runs might stay in the mid 10s. However, if the hole shot actually improves while the top end is also better - lookout, here comes the 9s!

                          In contrast to the idea of less stuff (pulling modules) and going more for the all-out racing results, I am currently upgrading the car's interior to where I wanted it to be before we ran out of time to make the WIV races. Little annoying things like the interior kick panel carpet pieces that were not yet glued back in (the stock 1200 pieces were cardboard-like covers), the rear seat area's vinyl and carpet pieces that again, were not yet back in place, door panel bright metal trim pieces we couldn't find while the shop was in disarray, etc., are now being taken care of. Something that is quite frustrating for me, is reading various Internet stories about our recent strong runs that say the car is 'stripped down' or 'gutted', when that is completely incorrect. On the outside, every bit of the car's stock items are intact including the original bumpers, grill work, etc. On the inside, carpet in both the driver's side and passenger side is something the car didn't even come with from the factory - 1200s were very cheap little cars with a lone thin carpet piece draped over the tranny tunnel, but then only thin vinyl floor mates front and rear. The stock dash is still there, as are the door panel covers and the rear quarter panel covers.

                          Other much needed changes are being made, such as a rewire of the entire under-dash 12V harnesses, connectors, and wire bundles. The new 'EVision 2' system is now installed, so we are no longer driving blind and once again have all the capabilities of Victor Tichonov's wonderful product! The beefy 2000 amp high tech shunt/circuit board was custom set up for the Zombie, and it's great eye candy as viewed from behind with the trunk open. As always, I mounted this unit not only for best access, shortest cable routing, and with power-voltage safety in mind, but to also have it visible to all...gotta show the world the great innovations and designs of the hard-working electronic guys who support our racing endeavors! You can see the shunt board's status green power and amber communications LEDs aglow that are now part of the light show that pulls in the press like a magnet in the darkened pit area when we race at night. When all 12 of the Sherry/Rudman 8 ch. reg. boards' green bypass LEDs are pulsing (96 of them), the same boards' blue communications LEDs are flickering, the 4 ch. reg, board that protects and monitors the 13.4V lithium 12V system has its red bypass LEDs flashing, and now the LEDs of the shunt board are lit, it's as if one has that little access panel on the head of the android 'Data'  hinged open to expose the syntax flashes of light from his positronic brain (Star Trek the Next Generation). Under the hood is more interesting as well, where the EVision 2's CPU is now mounted to the firewall with its tiny amber LED flickering, the LED of the hairball lit, and the water pump's inverter LED also on.

                          On the inside of the car, I'm working on a new dash piece that replaces the former radio space plate that had housed the Emeter, status lights and 15V analog gauge. It will now have the EVision's rotary 20-function selector and the Wayland-inspired 'Favorites' buttons...three push buttons that toggle the display to 'Race', 'Street 1', & 'Street 2'. The EVision's LED gauge display was custom colored for me by Victor and now is more securely mounted to the steering column with a trick factory-like mount. Victor and I have hooked up more of the feature sets than I had previous used. For example, when the car's original gas filler door (now the charge port door) is opened, the EVision kicks into 'Charging' mode where the beautiful display wakes up and a flashing red 'charge' indicator reports that status while the 'Amps' display changes from amps being drawn from the pack, to amps being pumped into the pack. The shunt board in the trunk has a second smaller shunt just for charge monitoring duties. When the pack comes up to full charge, the word 'Done' lights up green to the right of 'Charge'.

                          I'm still hoping John well tell us how much the whole battery assembly weighs as it sits in the car now.


                          There are 192, 1.8 lb. cells, so that's 346 lbs. in actual cell weight. There are 16 cells in each module. There are 12 modules, 11 of them with their BMS, fan cooling and protective covers weigh 39 lbs. 14 oz. each, while the 12th module that has extra aluminum mount brackets integral to the module weighs a bit more...call it 40 lbs. per module. That's 480 lbs. Quite frankly, the use of 1/2 inch Lexan and very thick copper interconnects makes each module about 6 lbs. heavier than they need to be and with lighter duty pieces they would have weighed more like 34 lbs. each for a total pack weight of 408 lbs., but then again we don't worry about over-heating interconnects or battery case weakness :-) There's also about 5 lbs. of buss bars and 1/0 cable inter-connects that electrically tie the modules together in series, so the entire pack weighs 485 lbs. There is also the Lexan full pack protective cover, the aluminum pack surround restraint, the base plate the pack sits on, and the wide blade and clamp system that secures the pack to the car - because Marko and I really thought these parts out and utilized a strong-but-light policy, this only amounts to about 15 lbs. The entire installed 355V pack rated at  22.7 kWh @ C2 and 2400 amps max discharge @ <10 seconds, with all its peripherals weighs right near 500 lbs. For a comparison point, the outgoing 360V lead acid pack with  ~6 kWh @ C2 and 1500 amp max discharge with all its peripherals weighed right near 900 lbs.

                          Comparison:

                          Lead acid pack - 900 lbs., 360V @ 6 kWh (sags to < 200V at full 1500 amp load), 11.8 ETs, 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, 30-35 miles range
                          LiPol pack - 485 lbs., 355V @ 22.7 kWh (sags to >300V at 1800 amps 3/4 load), 10.4 ETs, 0-60 in <2 seconds, 100-120 miles range


                          About the motors: I can't imagine that there would be much cooling possible with air during a 10 second race, or less! I'll bet heat usually isn't the problem if you start cold


                          We pump compressed air through the Siamese 9 motor sections while the car is in the pit to both cool the armatures and coms/brushes and to blow-away brush dust that when accumulated can make a conductive cloud inside the motors to help light off a fireball under very high voltage loads. I am working on a continuous fan-forced cooling system for hours-long street driving where my real concerns about heat are.

                          Still on the schedule is finishing the 12V rewire, finishing interior improvements, chasing down and fixing the driveline vibration, and getting the car to a local scale to weigh it to see how close my estimate of 2275 lbs. was...I say 'was', because that was with the Siamese 8 motor. I'm told the Siamese 9 (Impulse style, so they're shorter than regular 9s) only weighs about 25 lbs. more than the Siamese 8, so the weight estimate is right near 2300 lbs.

                          Hope I've answered the questions I had missed earlier in the month.

                          See Ya...John Wayland

                        • First Last
                          John, I missed this email, but the new display overlay for your EVision-2 is ready for you for a week now - it has more vibrant and actually more logical
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 9, 2010
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                            John,

                            I missed this email, but the new display overlay for your EVision-2 is ready for you for a week now - it has more vibrant and actually more logical color scheme. It's a snap to install, so I hope we can do it before Sep 10th drags. Also, I noticed that white main controller emclosures are sort of semi-transparent so in the dark whole box glows and flickers orange when LEDs flash, not tiny LED as in case of black enclosure.
                            Since visual appeal for you is so high priority deal, to impress the press I'd offer to replace black enclosure with a white one - also a quck swap not involving anything electrical. Just a suggestion. Let me know.

                            Victor

                            --- On Mon, 8/30/10, John Wayland <jw@...> wrote:

                            Other much needed changes are being made, such as a rewire of the entire under-dash 12V harnesses, connectors, and wire bundles. The new 'EVision 2' system is now installed, so we are no longer driving blind and once again have all the capabilities of Victor Tichonov's wonderful product! The beefy 2000 amp high tech shunt/circuit board was custom set up for the Zombie, and it's great eye candy as viewed from behind with the trunk open. As always, I mounted this unit not only for best access, shortest cable routing, and with power-voltage safety in mind, but to also have it visible to all...gotta show the world the great innovations and designs of the hard-working electronic guys who support our racing endeavors! You can see the shunt board's status green power and amber communications LEDs aglow that are now part of the light show that pulls in the press like a magnet in the darkened pit area when we race at night. When all 12 of the

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