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Highlights for September 6th

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  • andrew macnab
    On Lucid Dreaming; ================== From: Skye Chambers I ve Just woken up 5 minutes ago from a 1 hr sleep and I m typing
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 7, 1999
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      On Lucid Dreaming;

      From: "Skye Chambers" <skyechambers@...>

      I 've Just woken up 5 minutes ago from a 1 hr sleep and I'm
      typing madly, but at the same time I'm
      I dont really have to because I'm never going to forget. I'm
      so excited, I've just had a most amazing

      For the first time in my whole life I became completely
      awake!!! in my dream!!! with all my NORMAL WAKING
      CONSCIOUSNESS with all my physical life memories!!! I mean
      completely awake and wow upon wow no matter
      how many times I told myself that "hey I AM AWAKE!!!" I
      remained in the dream! I was so thrilled I started
      crying! :-))

      Then I thought now hold it, hold it, dont get too excited
      know what they say dont think about the body or
      you'll go back into it and waken. So I thought O.K, I'm far
      awake, if this is not a dream I won't be able to fly. And
      you know even as I lifted off, to my astonishment, in full
      waking consciousness, I
      was a bit disappointed at the same time, damn I thought, I
      would have liked that free extra room. Tut tut ;-)

      Well I'm floating then and my whole usually immaculate home
      appears to be in a state of renovation, there's people
      everywhere, some familiar some strange, everything is a
      mess!!!and I'm still completely
      awake marvelling at this state of consciousness that I've
      been able to retain. I start floating through my home, all
      the while screaming to myself I'm awake, I'm really lucid as
      they call it while I dream! I'm 'actually' awake!

      Then I think, quick, nows your chance, check it out, what's
      this stuffs made of and I start touching and examining all
      surfaces, they seem to be like a kind of painted plastic
      even the wood! Every few seconds I marvel at how I'm doing
      this, I start to sob with ecstasy again as I stroke the
      substances its so orgasmic, this realisation, this milestone
      I've never broken before, here awake in a dream! Then slowly
      very slowly I become aware I'm in my physical body my eyes
      open, no shift in conscious!!! and I
      quickly and calmly go over everything that happened, then I
      bolt out of bed and race to the computer and here it is.

      So I get the feeling I'm going to glimpse the last of my
      selfish illusory dream beliefs which will dissolve along
      all my waking false beliefs.

      Crumbs what happens now???

      Astonished, Skye


      It must be a feeling of power to so clearly witness the
      contents of the subconscious. No doubt you will become even
      more powerful over the play of consciousness. I imagine
      you'll experience degrees of lucidity from now on, until it
      becomes commonplace, especially of you 'will' it before
      falling asleep. Lucid dreaming, as you know, is an entire
      field unto itself and there are techniques to facilitate it.
      There must be lots of stuff on the 'net. Lucid dreaming is
      rare and difficult, and so is it difficult to be lucid and
      aware while being awake. "Hey, I'm awake and I'm aware that
      I'm awake!" Really, how many of us know for sure that we are
      awake at this very instant. Couldn't it be a dream, and not
      a lucid one? Couldn't the reader wake up any minute now?


      From: "Petros" <xristos@...>

      Sounds awesome, Skye.

      Don't be disappointed if it doesn't happen every night or if it isn't
      under your control. I've tried for years and haven't yet figured how to
      it happen at will.

      I experience lucid dreams, but rarely, maybe once or twice a year. Maybe
      someone has some hints about making it more frequent? I'm familiar with
      buzzing too and it's interesting to know that this is more common than I

      I also used to get what I call "abstract dreams," which are really weird
      I never heard anyone else talk about them. They were lucid in that I
      knew I
      was dreaming, but there was no "scene" going on, just abstract light
      patterns like the patterns on Oriental rugs or in those computer
      screen-saver programs with the fractal geometric designs. Lucidity
      to be a key component of these dreams -- I always knew that I was
      dreaming and enjoying the light show. I guess I *had* to know I was
      dreaming and that this was a dream since after all there was no scene or
      drama associated with the patterns, just the patterns being viewed and
      obviously I (let's say "the dreamer") was the viewer.

      The only other person I ever heard of who experienced this was Philip K.
      Dick, the sci-fi author. He used to see what he called "Picasso
      or "electric wallpaper" flashing by his eyes very rapidly (hundreds of
      a minute) in dreams. It was a mystery to him too, though he attributed
      to an orbiting Russian satellite which he believed was "beaming" some
      of messages into his brain. Of course, I don't hold to that theory . .

      Pleasant dreams Skye!

      1) Train to write down all dreams.
      2) While awake, look for common experience in dream and daily
      waking life.
      3) On recognizing a similarity, consciously think something
      like "now I am awake and will recognize this when dreaming"
      and take a resolve. If this starts working, proceed by
      planning a dream for the next night.
      4) Sleep early in the morning when possible as it will be
      easier to dream and change it into a lucid one.
      5) Some will drink too little at daytime and when thirsty,
      think something like "when thirsty, I know I am dreaming and
      can do whatever I want" and take that resolve, which will
      "materialize" in a dream.

      Happy virtual traveling,


      >Skye: 'LOL' :-)))
      >I'm so excited...da da da da...I just cant hide it...da da
      >da da :-)
      >I dont care anymore, just sock it to me, crack me open :-)
      >I reckon Jan might know something about this sort experience
      >too and the pit falls. The word Skandhas comes to mind, does
      >anyone know the definition? Everyone seems to have a
      >different one.
      There is only one pitfall but it doesn't apply to you :) It is
      possible to create a dreamworld where everything is "better
      and more beautiful", creating attachment and escape from daily
      life. For some, this already happens in day-dreaming. The
      saying is, a coin has two sides. Which side is relevant,
      depends on the perspective. So lucid dreaming can have an
      advantage too, but in order to realize that one has to find it
      oneself. There are no fixed rules; a beggar, having nothing
      can be attached to the begging bowl whereas someone else,
      receiving a nice sum, immediately shares with helpless,
      abandoned pets :) Some men are overpowered at the thought of
      just one woman whereas others aren't affected by a harem of

      >In just that short sharp experience I'm seeing that somehow
      >the normal waking consciousness may be in the same sort of
      >altered state of consciousness as the dream self and I may
      >have realised unconsciously that both are controlled by the
      >same illusory beliefs! So now I'm hoping I may no longer
      >need to sever them. Maybe this is just the kind of
      >convincing I need to fully realise that pure consciousness
      >remains hidden by these dolls.

      While waking, there is a strong samskara (activator) "this is
      real because I am awake". This samskara is the root cause for
      inhibition (fearing the consequences of going after
      [unallowed] desires). In lucid dreaming, one knows one is
      dreaming and one's behavior has no consequences; will the
      inhibitions lessen, yes or no? This is but one of the
      investigations to undertake...

      >Oh but what an adventure, real fantastic Carlos Castaneda
      >stuff. I'm going to explore it all the way till the complete
      >dissolusion of the separate 'I'. After all I'm allowed to
      >say my goodbyes to arn't I? consciously :-)))
      >Much Love

      Isn't the dissolution of the "I" the adventure itself?



      Aleks wrote:
      welcome to the lucid side of the night. oh yes, indeed, i
      understand the
      excitement. it's the only way to fly. . .
      {snip of very interesting post}
      ....i find that if i set aside time in an afternoon for a
      "nap," my lucid dreams
      are splendid. always proceeded by a buzzing sound,
      sometimes a feeling of

      Skye :-) Great, thanks Aleks, just what I was hoping to
      hear, that someone
      else here had done this. I've also had the intermittent
      buzzing electric current in the head (interestingly I too
      had just begun meditating) just as I was passing through the
      twilight zone into sleep, the current became uncomfortable
      but my body had already moved into the cataleptic state,
      next minute I'm floating around the room in the dark, then I
      floated into the bathroom and look in the mirror! >:-o
      When I saw nothing there I screamed, next minute I'm sitting
      bolt upright in my bed heart pounding, phew :-)

      But even though I had experienced that and have always
      dreamed vividly and flying often they were always only
      remembered upon awakening, nothing like this! This time I
      was aware that I was wide awake! in the dream world, that I
      had actually woken up IN THERE! On the spot memory :-)
      shouting this realisation to myself it over and over again.
      I was incredulous it was so exciting to have my full waking
      self-determining faculties here at last, examining the dream
      objects, astounded, knowing full well that I had had
      actually achieved this marvellously first time state.

      Aleks: more recently, i saw my body as little lights. it was
      the outline of my body,
      but it was just little lights with little light connectors
      that were also
      lights. all else was darkness. i just felt ecstasy and
      goodness, and i was
      hearing this music. . .

      now, for me, these dreams are instructive on some level that
      i do not know.
      the not knowing is the most comforting part now. and the
      "fireworks" are
      fun, but i acknowledge that they were pointing to "a
      something else." a
      something that i am in-- but which doesn't, in fact exist.
      emptiness. not illusion, you can't see an illusion, but a
      something-more-or-less-nothing-emptiness bliss.

      sweet dreams, skye!

      oh have fun-- enjoy
      love and blessings

      Thanks for sharing Aleks and many sweet dreams to you too.

      I often here music in my dreams. And have had Kundalini
      experiences heralded by extraordinary symphonic angelic
      choirs, amazing and frightening. Frightening because you
      don't know where the hell it's coming from, and because you
      know what's going to follow. It's all very mystical, occult,
      powerful and sweeping. I really ought to invite it back to
      see where it will take me next, though it tends to come and
      go as it will. I am in no way musically inclined, but I
      should take the time to learn what you and Jan know. I
      wonder if I'd be able to capture any of the music I hear.


      Mind 'Waste';

      >I can't seem to step away from the idea that we are
      >all responsible for cleaning up our own 'waste'...
      >from clearing the thoughtforms we have polluted the
      >environment with....the etheric environment, that is.
      I find this an interesting concept, Melody. When
      I meditate if I need to I clear the energy channels,
      both in myself and around the home, and for my
      son we have done work on heart, we had a very
      long heart session when he was six, until he told
      me he was finished, I was amazed at how deep
      he went and how calm he was. He's a rather super-
      active athletic type, so, to sit still for so long in such
      deep peace, was interesting to see.

      Anyway, very interesting, cleaning ancient thoughtforms
      left here oh so long ago, hmm, nice contemplation.

      Love and Light and Laughter,
      >I can't help but wonder what happens to the 'mind'
      >for those who embrace a 'no mind' perspective...
      >very often by rejecting or by denying their mind as
      >only illusionary.
      For the knowers of the unchanging, mind resembles empty space;
      without automatically arising thoughts or sensations, how can
      mind be perceived? Without a stimulus, for them there is
      no-mind or primordial mind (a matter of definition only);
      being desireless, the closed loop: "stimulus - reaction -
      thoughts - desire" is broken and the "flood" subsides;
      (re)acting or thinking "on demand" becomes the default.
      Instead of silence as tiny pauses between thoughts, tiny
      thoughts between silence :)

      >Yes. I certainly understand this. But the essence
      >of my question was not about what happens to the
      >'knowers of the unchanging'. They no longer have
      >any such hindrances. My question goes to effects
      >of their 'shadow' material on those who do not yet 'know',
      and don't even
      >yet have any inspiration to 'know'.

      There is no owner of anything. One of the universal laws is
      that of attraction and repulsion; thoughts can be attracted
      and repulsed. The flow of thoughts always goes by itself; as
      if from a universal storehouse. This isn't a strange concept
      because thoughts are considered to be subtle matter as opposed
      to the gross matter the physical world is made off.

      >I appreciate the responses offered to my earlier
      >post. It seems though that I did not ask it
      >clearly enough.
      >Perhaps if I asked my question another way.
      >People who have developed certain psychic abilities
      >can receive 'picture' impressions, or what I call
      >'thought forms' around certain individuals. It's
      >like a picture album that a person carries around
      >them in the auric field. And some of these
      >'pictures', certainly not all, (which were created
      >by the mind) are really dark, shadowy kind of stuff.

      This isn't too spectacular even for skeptics; the analogy that
      every wire, carrying a current is surrounded by a field. But
      the stuff isn't necessarily created by the mind; it is
      attracted by it. Change mood and observe...

      >Some of the nicest people carry some of the
      >ugliest pictures, generally unbenowst to them.
      >These 'pictures' or perhaps we can call them
      >a 'karmic record' do not die with the body.
      >When the brain shuts off, they still exist.
      >Even after one claims enlightenment, they still

      There is no such thing as "personal". No one was or will be
      "owner" of karma. The mechanism is that there is unlimited
      supply and illusory ownership can be claimed by desire. Giving
      up desire relinquishes the illusion of ownership but doesn't
      affect the subtle matter. Giving up the desire for chocolate
      doesn't make chocolate vanish from the universe. Enlightenment
      is "default" and cannot be claimed.

      >My question is ( which may not be one that anyone
      >on this list can answer ) ....what happens to
      >those 'pictures'....those thought forms that
      >become part of the 'matrix' of collective thought
      >forms? Do they not become part of the 'inherited'
      >mix of consciousness 'inhaled' by the collective?

      The pictures remain but seeing them is a different matter. It
      is possible to eliminate the possibility of attracting them
      which could be called "work"; the mind becomes as pure as the
      Self, becomes Self. Collective thought is unlimited already;
      nothing can be deleted or added. What in human society is
      called atrocity, can to a certain extent be found in the
      animal kingdom too, like male monkeys or lions killing and
      eating young ones. What would happen if a so called ideal
      society would be hit by a series of catastrophes, reducing
      life to a basic struggle for physical survival? It would show
      civilization is but a layer of varnish.

      >Does anyone here yet hear my question? Even though
      >I may be as detached as hell from these 'thoughts',
      >they still are being made into 'pictures' and entering
      >the collective matrix.

      If that were so, humans would undoubtedly be doomed as a
      species. Because, the past century is the most violent one in
      recorded history, not only regarding humans themselves but
      regarding all creatures on the planet. The collective would be
      saturated with it and that would be the end. It is described
      this way by a SF author (forgot the name).

      >Now, maybe this isn't true of a dozen or so people on this
      planet who , as
      >Jan says, have closed the loop and
      >now only have thoughts 'on demand'. But my concern
      >is not for them. My concern is more about all those
      >individuals who claim 'instant enlightenment', and
      >still carry all those shadowy pictures, (and continue
      >to create new ones even!) and project them unconsciously
      onto others..

      The loop has to be cut - then thoughts won't lead a "life of
      their own". Enlightenment is default. It can only be
      recognized when the potential to clean the mind has become
      mature. So anyone claiming instant enlightenment obviously
      hasn't :) It means, there has to be a history of "conventional
      stuff" that can be anything from severe suffering to a
      "standard" sadhana. The process of maturation can always be
      recognized. Sometimes it can be fast, like consciously going
      through the process of dying, as death means the good bye from
      loved ones, mind-body and world, which is far more than many
      can take at one go.

      >My question is, "why would we presume the shadow disappears
      just because
      >one had an experience of enlightenment?" Doesn't our read of
      history, in
      >studying the lives of the Masters show us that
      >the shadow lives on, unless we embrace it...
      >unless we reach out and 'own' what we've
      >'thown away'?

      Anyone familiar with surrender will know one surrenders both
      pleasure and pain, the "dark" side as well as the "bright"
      side. Thus, one owns nothing. It isn't even borrowed (that
      would require an owner "high in the sky"). Any experience is
      just an experience and nothing more. Enlightenment, being
      default, cannot be an experience. On a gradual path one goes
      from experience to experience, until experience is no more.

      >It seems that for us to ignore this, and only
      >pursue our 'personal' enlightenment is not much
      >different from our dumping toxic waste in the
      >rivers for our children and grandchildren to
      >drink. It seems that a good read of the news
      >paper would open our eyes to what we're doing.

      If one believes in destroying the possibilities for life on
      the planet, one is already attracting the appropriate thought
      patterns. If animals have insufficient food or are unhappy,
      procreation comes to a halt. Human population is rapidly
      increasing despite the fact that this century is the most
      violent one in recorded history. Enlightenment isn't pursued;
      it is natural and the default condition. No one is urged to
      procreate when thousands of children are dying of hunger,
      diseases and war that could have easily been prevented, for
      instance by adoption. It would be sensible to alleviate this
      first. Anyone considering to be full of mental waste will
      sooner or later realize to have attracted the entire mess in
      the first place, including birth on this planet. "Repentance
      comes after wrongdoing".
      Dear Melody:

      I don't think our minds pollute anything.....I think this is the
      notion of forgiveness....we have done none of the things we think we
      done....this world is not real....it is the creation of our
      constructs....illusions gain "power" the tighter we hold to them....in
      of themselves they have no power.....when we do harm in our world of
      constructs...and then try to remedy that harm through further
      constructs, we
      only build illusion on illusion....guilt is the glue that binds these
      illusions together....it is only the world that we have created that
      to inspire and require guilt...I think God asks us to step aside from
      world we have created and to see that His world is NOT that...and only
      world can be Real...His world is timeless, NOW THIS MILLISECOND, there
      is no
      past, Guilt can only be experienced in association with the past...if we
      experienced it as present pain we would move away from it instantly,
      like a
      finger touched to a flame...It serves no purpose in ameliorating the
      suffering/pollution of the world..to be concerned with the pollution of
      thoughts...better we forgive ourselves instantly and release the hold of
      believing our worldly ideas are more important and powerful than
      and Peace of Mind. We need DO nothing....The ego mind is illusory...it
      creates only illusion...suffering is one (although when you're in that
      experience the illusion is palpable...you can't fix it you can only
      recognize it as a product of your ideas, not reality.) The Mind of
      Spirit or
      God is eternal and unsullied, and remains within us, always.....we
      which mind we hear...God's Mind, our true nature, knows nothing of
      or pain...you are free today from all cleaning up chores....it's not
      job...you don't have to do the work, indeed there is no work to be
      think when we realize this, for me it's moments, not permanent, I still
      lots of accepting to open up to, we stop "creating" pollution.....it's
      acceptance of our perfection now....that heals the world....

      Love, Kristi

      My concern here is *not* about my self, though,
      nor about personal cleansing. My concern is
      about the collective cleansing.

      In terms of Neo-Sabbatian Kabbalists, my concern
      is about 'raising the holy sparks *together*',
      and an individual's participation, as part of that Whole.

      As we are all One, (or, as is often stated here) "there
      is no 'other' ", another's confusion is my confusion.
      One's sorrow is my sorrow. It is not enough for "my"
      field to be cleansed. My concern is for my brothers
      and sisters....psychos, rednecks, dreamers, or Hitlers
      though they may be. :-)

      My concern is that even though I may have passed
      on to 'higher' levels, what have I and my friends
      here left littered upon the highway for others
      in the etheric to have to step through?

      Does this make sense?

      Dear Melody,

      Yes, it's okay the forms which are left...
      these are under the governance of the
      Archangelic Realm, some are nurtured
      forward into other dimensions of growth..
      others must past on... but at this level
      they are governed. For those who have
      to cope with the realms, different traditions
      have different people to work with them,
      the issue is more that we have been so long in the
      Apollonian thought-processes which discludes the
      Dionysian realm of the Shaman or Shamanist or
      healer ... the logical has disallowed and disavowed the
      holistic or hologramatic, the feminine side, so, those who
      are sensitive or wounded have few guides, but we are
      integrating more and more and the Cosmos does have
      all in its hand for nurturing, seeding, flowering, growing,
      disintegrating, dying and being reborn, learning ever yet
      more levels.

      To be honest, I'm a bit embarrassed to have the conver-
      sation out in public like this, I am sure there are those on the
      list who know more than I about this, but, you, if you are working
      with people who are open to this can call on the Archangelic realm,
      which is why I brought up the Qabalah, it is in a form that is
      accessible to our western minds, or at least this one wave of
      the cosmic sea in her current wave form gets it in that current.

      Phew, laughing, okay...
      Much Love and Light,

      Harsha and the Naked Goddess:

      The Vision of the Naked Goddess

      In total silence I was breathing
      lying quietly unmoving
      with tired desire life was ebbing
      last vestige of hope was draining
      having done my faithful duty
      I gasped and took a final sigh
      and felt the divine torrent explode
      unbounded shiver up the spine
      suddenly the vision of her beauty
      appeared naked before my eyes.

      With a smile so ever slight
      lotus eyes were drowning me
      in the pool of blue sea light
      the princess of love was crowning me
      the mystic lover of all the ages
      inspired poet among the sages
      who never made a show of piety
      uncaring of worldly arrows
      sang and loved the female deity.

      For rest of the poem (The Vision of the Naked Goddess), see the
      following URL.



      From the "selves" point of view I can do nothing because I can't
      do. All I can do really is block the flow. So again you are absolutely
      correct. When something is done it comes through "me". So
      "me" does nothing and everything is accomplished. The nothing
      that "me" does is not block.

      Everything is accomplished one way or the other anyway. The
      real question to me is whether I am awake or not. Everything is
      done either way but if I am awake, something finer is present.
      Whatever you want to call that is fine but that finer level or finer
      consciousness makes all the difference there is. I am present.

      Phillip Burton wrote:

      > Phil replies:
      > "Earning, working, and deserving" are metaphorical, related to the notion
      > that "If you work hard enough, you will succeed in life." Of course, some
      > of the hardest working people in the world are also poor. The problem with
      > the "spiritualization" of the work ethic, is that it is entirely ego-based:
      > if "I" work hard enough, "I" will reach "my" goal. There is the drive to
      > attain an imagined goal, which obscures and distorts the here-and-now.


      This seems too simplistic to me. :-) It seems to me that it depends upon
      which self one is speaking from. From one position what you say is
      absolutely true. But still even from a "realized state" there is work to
      be done. Perhaps personal work is not necessary because there is the
      recognition that there really is not a personal self but world work can
      actually be accomplished with a Self that has will.

      > Marcia seems to react to those who say, "It's all here right now. There is
      > nothing to be attained." I suggest a simple alternative to such a reaction:
      > give complete, undivided, and unreserved attention to here-and-now, and quit
      > worrying about results. See what IS and let the programs and
      > counter-programs cease to be an issue.


      There is a difference between reacting and responding. "It's all here
      right now"

      is the beginning not the end. A person who can be present in the here
      now can actually do something. Letting the programs and counter programs
      cease to be an issue is waking up.. An awakened man can actually
      choose to die. Endlessly cycling through programs and counter programs
      is exactly what the work is aimed at having a person see.

      I suspect that seeing what IS usually happens at the end of a cycle and
      is really a sophisticated form of justification. But that is just what I
      noticed in myself. And I certainly can't speak for anyone else.

      Dear Mira:

      Resistance comes in many forms. I see many forms of resistance
      that appear
      here that are denied...among the many non-me's. While I still
      experience a
      me, I like to point this stuff out....no different a compulsion
      than other's
      to shock or offend.....no compulsion at all, just the impressions
      of the
      mind in the service of the ego that notices things that are about
      difference... Otherwise, you are of course correct....

      Love, Kristi

      When resistance appears,
      it is welcomed,
      for it is all included in me.

      When a me appears
      it is welcomed,
      for it is all included in me.

      When a you appears, pointing out stuff, to a me,
      it is welcomed,
      for it is all included in you.
      And you are included in me.

      Thank you Kristie,


      Dear Judi:

      Occasionally, ever so occasionally, I glimpse just the merest hint of a
      tenderness in you that is so exquisite it makes my breath catch....it's
      crack through which I think I see you best...not because of any way you
      or aren't, I don't know you at all...but because of the way I am....

      Love, Kristi

      Mmmmmmmm, yes, you see me. We are love itself you see?? It's what *is*
      tender, yes.
      There's *more* here you see, than just what meets the mind's eye?? It's
      a new way
      seeing. It's thru *being* that we *see*, that we *understand*. You start
      *seeing* thru your hearts *eyes*. You start to *feel*. There is no
      separation then, never has been,
      there is only this *understanding*, this love. It is absolute bliss.
      There is no time, no space, no worries, no nothing. Only bliss itself.
      The Heart. And that is who and what we *are*. Everything is taken care
      of. It's all happening at the *zoo*. :-)

      How does that song go??

      Love is the opening door,
      Love is what we came here for,
      Do you know what I mean,
      Have your eyes really seen.
      Love is the key we must turn,
      Truth is the flame we must burn
      Freedom's the lesson we learn.
      Do you know what I mean?
      Have your eyes really seen???

      Judi :-)
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