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Wednesday, February 27, 2002

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  • Jerry Katz
    OOPS! I almost forgot to thank Gloria for doing the highlights for me when I was gone for two weeks. When Gloria s ready for a break, I ll be taking over her
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 28, 2002
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      OOPS! I almost forgot to thank Gloria for "doing
      the highlights" for me when I was gone for two
      weeks. When Gloria's ready for a break, I'll be
      taking over her days. We're always accepting
      volunteer editors. --Jerry

      ________________________________________________________________________

      CAIO ROSSI

      Hi,

      I'm Caio Rossi, a new member from São Paulo,
      Brazil. This is my "debut msg" to this group after
      following the threads for 2 days. Here we go:

       
             >...The problem is not thought itself. Thought is
             > the medium through which we interact with all the data which the
             > senses absorb. The problem is that we interpret input-data
             > subjectively, drawing conclusions about everything we experience.
       
             >...If we were able to have Draw-no-conclusions-mind, input
             would
             > be viewed with perfect objectivity so we would see things, and feel
             > things and move in relationship to things directly, without any
             > qualifications.
             > The possibility for dealing with this problem of mind is simply to
             > sever the minds relationship to conclusive or analytical thinking.
       
             > The mind is like a computer that analyzes every bit of stimuli that
             > is picked up by the senses. It then selects the stimuli that
             > reinforce survival, and rejects what doesn't support it. If you
             sever
             > the minds analytical process, you have a senile and impotent
             > dictator, just a figurehead with no power whatsoever.
       
             How can you be sure the mind selects only those stimuli that reinforce ( I should add ITS )
             survival?? If that were true, it wouldn't have allowed you to write a "mind-severing manifesto".
       
             > ...The body simply does what what instinct requires, but the mind is
             > tremendously manipulative.
       
      I could rephrase that as: "The mind simply does
      what thinking requires, but the body is
      tremendously manipulative, as it has deeply
      ingrained reactions that do not fit the outside
      world anymore, differently from the mind's
      reactions, as, being neuron networks much more
      easily "re-shaped" than the DNA, it has been built
      based upon the present environment and is subject
      to future adaptations".

      "Severing" the mind is disposing reason. One is
      supposed to transcend reason, not become a moron!

      ____________________________________________________________________

      HEIDI

      That which is being made manifest right now in my
      fingers and in your eyes, is energy!! Information
      is energy.

      Yes - "we all know that". (or so "we say")

      No - we, none of us, take that FACT into
      consideration. For us, thought that is perceived is
      taken as a "something", however difficult it may be
      to define it satisfactorily amongst, between, or
      within ourselves. But in fact, thought is not a
      "something" nor is it a "not-something", nor is it
      both "something" and "not-something", NOR is it NOT
      both "something" and "not-something".

      Thought - whether it conducts the "pro" position,
      or the "con" position or the "independent" position
      - is irrelevant. At least, to the thinker. And
      don't you dare say there is no thinker!! That's
      just not facing FACTS!! If you say so, then you
      just don't know WHO the thinker IS!!

      My fingers are blazing away right now in realtime,
      just as your eyes are staring away right now in
      realtime, so don't confuse the issue with some
      idiotic thought bubbling up that there is no
      thinker behind the thought. If you are braindead
      then you can "say" there is no thinker behind the
      thought (except that, if you're braindead you can't
      say/think anything, now can you?) Energy IS being
      transferred, in ways you can not imagine, and for
      reasons you can not imagine. The "me/writer" and
      the "you/reader" are Actualities with no potential.
      "We" are in the midst of an imperceptible paradise
      which can't be seen because thought is designed to
      focus and stare and fragment and coagulate and
      everything BUT see.

      Some men want to think GOOD thoughts, or SMART
      thoughts, or CLEVER thoughts, or Zen thoughts, or
      Christian thoughts, or Gurdjieffian thoughts. Some
      men want to NOT think thoughts at all - to stop
      thought (and be like a clear pond on a still
      morning reflecting all, though this very metaphor
      muddles the clarity of the mirror as does any
      thought.)

      But, some men want ***none of that***!!!

      Independent thought is NOT just the middle-way of
      the pro's and the con's. And those who "think" they
      are somewhat "more independent of mind" than the
      average bears in the bar, are neither completely
      nor partially independent. They are, in fact, just
      a Pro or a Con with a different face on.

      Independent politicians are just one ACT away from
      becoming yet another Pro or another Con, and all
      their strutting about "independently" is just a
      waiting game their mind plays until the next
      election. Independent's claim distinction from both
      other parties, and points-of-view, on the basis of
      objectivity, but it is untrue: the basis is ALWAYS
      self- interest, and that interest is to BE a Pro or
      a Con.

      True Independent thought is impartial, objective,
      non-aligned; its action has no impact on the
      pro/con dynamic. True independent thought has no
      purpose or function except to those who engage in
      it. True independent thought is NOT opposed to the
      Pro's or the Con's and has absolutely no interest
      in their internal or external affairs.

      To be truly independent, one must let go of the
      interest in the Game being played, and must start
      their own, setup their own rules, and move lock
      stock and barrel. To be truly independent, is not
      to be without passionate interest in life - only
      such can have interest in something without having
      a VESTED interest; no interest in cost.

      In the Game, to think a new thought requires that
      an old thought be forgotten; that is the new
      thought's cost.

      To be truly independent, cost (equals) all old
      thoughts.

      JAMES

      Hello Heidi,

      The thinker is the thought. Information and Energy
      - A thought is energy in formation.

      All is energy, light, Love. When energy is in a
      particular form, it is in a particular form like a
      wave in the ocean. When the form dissolves the
      energy is what is always was, is - It is Love.

      Love is autonomous.

      ____________________________________________________________________

      JAN BARENDRECHT

      http://www.atheistalliance.org/humor/creation.html

      ____________________________________________________________________

      GLORIA LEE

      Someone Who Can Kiss God
       
      Come to my house late at night –
      Do not be shy.
      Hafiz will be barefoot and dancing.

      I will be
      In such a grand and generous mood!

      Come to my door at any hour,
      Even if your eyes
      Are frightened by my light.
      My heart and arms are open
      And need no rest –
      They will always welcome you.

      Come in, my dear,
      From that harsh world
      That has rained elements of stone
      Upon your tender face.

      Every soul
      Should receive a toast from us
      For bravery!

      Bring all the bottles of wine you own
      To this divine table – the earth
      We share.

      If your cellar is empty,
      This whole Universe
      Could drink forever
      From mine!

      Let’s dine tonight with exquisite music.
      I might even hire angels
      To play – just for you.

      Look!
      Hidden beneath your feet
      Is a Luminous Stage
      Where we are meant to rehearse
      Our Eternal Dance!

      And what is the price of my
      Divine Instruction?
      What could I ask of you?

      All I could ever want
      Is that
      You have the priceless company
      Of Someone
      Who can Kiss God,

      That you have the priceless gift
      Of becoming a servant to the Friend!

      Come to my window, dear world –
      Why ever be shy?

      Look inside my playful
      Verse,
      For Hafiz is
      Barefoot and Dancing
      And in such a Grand and Generous –
      In such a Fantastic Mood.

      (“I Heard God Laughing” – versions of Hafiz by
      Daniel Ladinsky)

      ______________________________________________________________

      GLORIA LEE

      You certainly express your opinions with an
      admirable gusto, but I can't help wondering if they
      are based on anything other than just opinion?

      While what you say greatly resembles the old nature
      vs. nurture debates, the idea of genes needing
      heroes, reading, etc is a bit far fetched.
      Accumulated bodies of knowledge have to be
      laboriously passed from one mind to another. There
      is no "mind" split off from the body, that is
      carrying on some other life apart from the "man"
      living this one. While both body and mind are quite
      malleable, within limits, the brain we are born
      with hardly differs any from the basic model of
      600,000 years ago.

      Ok, what I hear behind my back is a chorus of
      voices saying, "Speak for yourself"..heh, heh.
      Still, would you consider all the technological
      inventions in just the last 100 years to be the
      result of some gene? Like the gene for TV and
      airplanes just suddenly appeared?

      Ideas, like religions and other cultural phenomena,
      are generally referred to as memes. To the extent
      that genes might acquire some survival advantage
      from the body of knowledge of which we are
      carriers, they might be said to be indirectly
      benefitting. The actual needs of genes and bodies
      are quite simple, and also unchanged from those of
      600,000 years ago. Genes can survive quite happily
      living in a cave without reading, etc - the game of
      civilization either benefits or harms mostly those
      who play it.

      If we are going to think at all, wouldn't some
      basic concern for opinions vs. facts be helpful?
      The other thing, which I won't go into in depth, is
      that you seem to misunderstand the purpose of
      methods such as stopping thoughts, etc. It is not
      meant to result in some blubbering idiot incapable
      of any thinking at all. There is no conflict
      between clarity of mind and a functioning person.
      Minds ARE thinking, contents may vary.

      __________________________________________________________________
       

      JERRY KATZ

      I got back into town yesterday but haven't had a
      chance to post to the list. Thanks to Gloria Lee
      for covering my days while I was away.

      We had a good time at the Inner Directions
      gathering. There's something about being in the
      presence of everyone that's simply a good thing to
      do. I like the fact that cee took notes. I'm going
      to do that next time, if I attend.

      About 14 or so people got together on Saturday
      night. Jody and Petros held court. A young lawyer
      of 30 named Andrew Breese had many questions. He
      had such a sparkling personality we all agreed that
      he'd be wasting his time trying to understand
      nonduality and that he should immediately start
      giving Satsang. We decided we'd coach him in
      answers and questions.

      cee sat in perfect bliss. Christiana spoke briefly
      but so intently and clearly from the heart that
      much gratitude was shown to her. Thomas Murphy
      didn't get a chance to say much, but he and his
      beautiful wife Dianne graced the room. Tom did get
      a chance to talk to Rudy Aquirre and Andrew prior
      to everyone else arriving.

      Rudy came to Inner Directions from Michigan. He'd
      never been to southern California before and was in
      love with the warm weather and the palm trees.

      Dave Lambert attended with his lovely wife Barbara.
      Dave maintains the Satsang schedule for Los Angeles
      and has the task of deciding who to list. His
      standards are high and he serves a (snail) mailing
      list of very many who trust his judgments. He and
      Barbara told some good stories and had poignant
      thoughts about the nature of Gurus, based on their
      experiences.

      Chuck Hillig was present and helped organize the
      gathering. Chuck is like the 'rock' of the west
      coast nonduality contingent. He can speak like a
      psychotherapist, which he is, and laugh like a
      Buddha, which he is.

      We also enjoyed the company of Metta Zetty and her
      cool husband Gary, a couple of Texans. Howdy.
      Metta, Adyashanti, and Gangaji were, in my opinion,
      the most outstanding speakers, as they seemed to
      come from a place of reality more than the other
      speakers. I guess public appearance becomes a job
      like anything else and some vitality can be lost.
      Not to take anything away from 93 year old Douglas
      Harding, who with his smashing wife entertained the
      audience for two solid hours. He's so energetic I
      got tired watching him.

      Things like retreats and gatherings aren't
      necessary to any spiritual path, and they can be
      very distracting. But at some point it's nice to
      say hi to oneself in one's many guises. It's just
      good for some people, that's all, like walking on
      the beach or hiking in the mountains.

      Harsha is having a get together in the summer in
      Denver. There will be a 3-day retreat in Nova
      Scotia in October right around the time of peak
      fall color.

      I'll be posting pictures from La Jolla soon, taken
      by cee and christiana.

      __________________________________________________________________

      PETROS
      from PetrosTruth

      We have added a selection from the Satipatthana
      Sutta (Foundation of Mindfulness Practice) to the
      eWakening website.

      Direct link:
      http://home.earthlink.net/~xristos/texts.htm
       

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