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Friday, February 8, 2002

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  • Jerry Katz
    All 968 editions of the highlights (through yesterday) are currently indexed by the Nonduality Salon search engine. It also indexes The Course in
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 9, 2002
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      All 968 editions of the highlights (through yesterday) are currently indexed by the Nonduality Salon search engine. It also indexes The Course in Consciousness, and Aziz's website. Many more nonduality websites will be included for indexing. That'll be done in March.
      <http://nonduality.com/search.htm>
      --Jerry Katz

      ERIC BLACKSTEAD: Jody, if you are actually able to sustain
      the belief that the woman we are discussing here is
      Enlightened, and that all my observations about her are my
      projections, as you keep intimating, you are clearly
      marching to a different drummer than I am.

      JODY: No argument there.

      ERIC B.: To buttress your very personal definition of
      enlightenment by suggesting comparisons between the lady in
      question and the Bengali saint, Ramakrishna, is a perverse
      and ludicrous idea.

      JODY: Opinion noted.

      ERIC B.: It's something like comparing a flea with the sky
      because the flea not only causes itching, but can also fly.
      Are you sure you want to do this?

      JODY: Yes.

      ERIC B.: Ramakrishna didn't promote himself with endless
      self advertising, pumping himself up all over the local
      media, seeking people out for the sole apparent object of
      being rude to them, and thus inflating himself.

      JODY: In fact he did. He claimed to his devotees that he
      was an incarnation of God. This was clearly an act of self
      disclosure, which is what the woman in question is doing.

      However, your idea of our lady's "apparent object" is
      clearly your projection and conjecture.

      ERIC B.: You write as if all personal characteristics have
      the same weight and moral valence. Where did you ever get
      this idea? Surely not from the writings of anybody who has
      ever been acknowledged to be a sage or a saint?

      JODY: I've come to depend on internal sources for my
      understanding, as well as advice from good friends and
      mentors.

      ERIC B.: Haven't you noticed that, allowing for personal
      variables and cultural differences, all saints and sages
      share certain benign characteristics?

      JODY: Absolutely not. First of all, by the time the stories
      of the saints get to us, they have been thoroughly and
      completely disinfected and whitewashed of their humanity
      and historical accuracy. The phenomenon is called
      hagiography, and it occurs whenever a saint has a devoted
      following to carry on his/her work after they leave the
      body.

      Secondly, there have been many, many more saints we know
      nothing about because they didn't have a following, or at
      least one that endeavored to keep their memory alive.

      ERIC B.: Haven't you noticed as well, that with the
      singular modern exception of Ramana Maharshi, that lineage
      and a realized teacher usually plays a significant part in
      the public acceptance of someone's claims to Enlightenment?

      JODY: No. I know of a number of individuals who've come to
      Self realization without the benefit of an established
      lineage.

      ERIC B.: Jody, I know that you are friends, at least
      literary friends, with many people on this list and others
      like HS, who are personally familiar with the lady in
      question. I suggest you try out your Ramakrishna comparison
      with off-line with some of them, and see what they think.
      It's my guess that you'll be met with howls of friendly
      mirth and sent back to your drawing board for another look.
      Equally, in the same line, if you ask them whether one of
      us is projecting, I don't think they will encourage you to
      think it's me.

      JODY: They might not all like her or agree with her
      methods, but those I've come to respect as being in
      understanding can see that the lady in question has indeed
      come to the same understanding.

      GREG GOODE: Just to dip in for a quick point here ...
      Jody's point about hagiography can't be overemphasized.
      I've been in very close contact with some latter-day
      subjects of worship, veneration and idealization, and I can
      tell you these benign characteristics are either (i) a
      facade, (ii) broadly exaggerated, or (iii) simply lacking.
      Don't forget that there's a behind-the-scenes side to
      almost anyone in the public eye. And quite often these
      idealizations serve the interests of the ones believing and
      projecting them. Another thing is that the reputation of
      the deceased skyrockets soon after death. What also
      mushrooms is also the number of folks popping up claiming
      authorization by the recently departed.

      And while the points about idealization and worship this is
      true, it is also true that kindness, benevolence and
      generosity are wonderful qualities, more wonderful the
      deeper they go. It's nice to be nice. And it's nice when
      the other is nice to you. But the kind of understanding
      being spoken about in this thread -- there are no airtight
      links between this understanding and any ethical or
      character attributes. Look at it the other way around for a
      moment. Just think, what about all the sincerely sweet,
      generous, open-hearted people there are in the world?
      Everyone has seen or known them. Assuming for six seconds
      that Understanding is the kind of thing that one can
      "have," would you say these kind folks have it or not??

      Love, and in Understanding this morning where the company
      coffee shop is,

      --Greg

      SU GANDOLF

      "Just think, what about all the sincerely sweet, generous,
      open- hearted people there are in the world? Everyone has
      seen or known them. Assuming for six seconds that
      Understanding is the kind of thing that one can "have,"
      would you say these kind folks have it or not??" --Greg

      Greg, that is an excellent question, actually. The answer
      may be clear to you, but I DON'T KNOW.

      Maybe yes. Maybe that is all there is. (Generosity,
      open-heartedness, etc.--not "sweet"ness though. Sweetness
      is not very deep, I think. No offense to the donut crowd. I
      just had one myself. I can't even describe it, it was so
      good. OK, I take it back. Maybe sweetness is all there is.)

      Maybe I am just really a very bad Buddhist?

      DAN BERKOW

      Hi Greg --

      The overemphasis on being nice is
        the road to neuroses of all sorts.

      Fortune cookie says: when the people are emphasizing
        how nice it is to be nice, not-niceness is
        right at hand ... noted on lists as well
        as daily life

      You seem to imply that it is worthwhile to assume
        that understanding is had -- and
        that nice people have understanding
        of some sort associated with niceness, implying
        not-nice people don't or won't?

      Putting it nicely,
      Dan

      GREG GOODE responds to DAN:

      >The overemphasis on being nice is
      >  the road to neuroses of all sorts.

      That's why they call it an *over*emphasis...

      >You seem to imply that it is worthwhile to assume
      >  that understanding is had -- and
      >  that nice people have understanding
      >  of some sort associated with niceness, implying
      >  not-nice people don't or won't?

      Not at all, it's a reductio based on something Eric said in
      a previous post, viz.

        > Haven't you noticed that, allowing for personal variables and
        > cultural differences, all saints and sages share certain benign
        > characteristics?

      If someone believes in (a) having Understanding, and (b)
      niceness as a cause or consequence of Understanding, then
      it might be worthwhile to consider whether Understanding
      and niceness can independently of each other. And if one
      sincerely encounters such an independence, then what does
      that do to one's belief in (b)?
       

      Drinking a nice cup of tea,
      Greg

      __________________________________________________________________

      MATTHEW FILES
       

      .........Prayer is praise of god, wanting nothing from god
      , not even an answer to a question. .......matthew

      Beautiful, Matthew. Still, listening is not a bad idea.
      Lots to hear besides answers, admittedly rarely given.

      -Gloria

      __________________________________________________________________

      MICHAEL READ

      ABUNDANCE

      nothing higher nothing lower
      just this - abundance

      there is more than enough for everybody
      no one need go hungry or thirsty or lacking

      yet many do only for lack of giving
      lack of understanding
      no freedom

      bah!

      who is doing this?
      we are
      what is the cause
      we are
      where is the cure
      in us

      awaken in the dream
      and yet again awaken
      all is dream
      all is real

      the absolute is right here
      stop imagining and know
      flesh and spirit are one
      the same

      the universe is alive - is life itself
      you are the universe
      all that occurs in the world
      occurs in you
      all that occurs in you
      occurs in the universe

      with all the power you can muster
      from your heart try to believe
      in as many things at once as you can
      really, truly, deeply believe
      believe in all the good stuff
      believe in things you don't want to believe in
      believe in the stuff the other guy believes in
      believe in stuff you never thought of before
      see it as a spinning wheel going faster and
      faster till it dissolves into a blur
      then maybe you'll see that it is belief
      alone that drives the illusion we call the
      21st century

      there isn't much to beliefs
      they are just ideas held in the head
      unless the ideas get ahold of the head
      and the hands do things the heart would not

      if you must believe,
      believe this - you,
      yes you, are the main cause for most of your own
      suffering and bliss too!

      nobody can stick it to you like you...
      ain't it the pits? :-)

      take care of yourself
      treat each other well
      it could work you know

      loveya - michael

      __________________________________________________________________

      PETROS
      from Petros Truth

      True method is to take the path as the goal; it is to begin
      with enlightenment and grow deeper with that day after day.

      True renunciation is to abandon any thought of 'self' and
      'other,' or of 'path' and 'goal.'

      Shortcut to this page:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Petros-Truth * Home page:
      www.ewakening.net Private e-mail: xristos@... *
      Open discussion board:
      http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/c/54310/
       

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