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Tuesday, February 5, 2002

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  • Jerry Katz
    JAN SULTAN The deep sleep state is with you 24 hours a day. It is just that when you wake up the screen is not blank anymore. Your daily movie obscures the
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 6, 2002

      The deep sleep state is with you 24 hours a day. It is just
      that when you wake up the screen is not blank anymore. Your
      daily 'movie' obscures the 'blank screen'. And yes, you can
      learn to be 'aware' when in the deep sleep state. You can
      even see a dream arising and just push it away. Though you
      will have to recover the 'lost' sleep another time. Believe
      me, all very scary stuff.

      Here is some stuff I unearthed regarding being aware during
      the deep sleep state. From Nisargadatta, Aziz Kristof and
      Susan Segal. The only reason I can think of that brought
      about this deep sleep state awareness for me was that it
      was a thorn in my side. I had not accepted the advaidic
      arguments about the deep sleep state. My fear was that it
      all was in our brains, and that once our brains slept, as
      in deep sleep, existence ceased. So, as they say, Ask and
      the answer will come! Just make sure you connect

      Nisargadatta Maharaj: Awareness is primordial; it is the
      original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused,
      unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness
      is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of
      duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness,
      but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in
      deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is
      relative to its content; consciousness is always of
      something. Consciousness is partial and changeful,
      awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is
      the common matrix of every experience. Since it is
      awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is
      awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore, the
      very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement
      in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness
      takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at
      once recognized as the original, basic experience, which is
      life itself, and also love and joy. (29)

      The mind is discontinuous. Again and again it blanks out,
      like in sleep or swoon or distraction. There must be
      something continuous to register discontinuity. Memory is
      always partial, unreliable and evanescent. It does not
      explain the strong sense of identity pervading
      consciousness, the sense "I am". Find out what is at the
      root of it. (307)

      The person merges into the witness, the witness into
      awareness, awareness into pure being, yet identity is not
      lost, only its limitations are lost. It is transfigured and
      becomes the real Self, the sadguru, the eternal friend and
      guide. You cannot approach it in worship. No external
      activity can reach the inner self; worship and prayers
      remain on the surface only; to do deeper meditation is
      essential, the striving to go beyond the states of sleep,
      dream and waking. In the beginning the attempts are
      irregular, then they recur more often, become regular, then
      continuous and intense, until all obstacles are conquered.

      Aziz Kristof: From the point of view
      of one who is in the state of Presence, it feels like an
      experience of absolute subjectivity. To prove that this is
      so, some practitioners try even to bring this state to the
      Sleep State. But this is unwise, for to be aware during
      sleep ultimately can create serious imbalance in the
      psyche. The presence of awareness during Sleep State
      interferes with the natural healing process of our
      subconscious. To know when to control and when to let go is
      a function of intelligence. There is no need to control the
      sleep state, as there is no need to control the moment of
      death, when all dissolves into the Source and there is no
      force in the universe that can stop it.

      Enlightenment does not necessarily bring awareness to the
      sleep state. Many seekers unquestioningly adopt the belief
      in the necessity of becoming aware of the inner state in
      the Sleep State. It is fine for the older masters who have
      completed their personal growth. In the case of young
      people, bringing awareness to the Sleep State is very
      unhealthy. It hinders the natural process of self-healing
      and the release of the subconscious mind in the dream
      state. The decision as to whether awareness is present in
      sleep or not belongs to the Absolute itself. For those who
      have shifted to the Absolute State, there is no longer will
      operating as far as "being within" is concerned. If we look
      more deeply into this idea of being aware in sleep or
      controlling the Dream State, what we find is fear. Many
      even fear that they will not be aware in the moment of
      death. It is madness.

      Here, we are entering the mystery of awakening to the
      Uncreated. There is a stage of realisation which the Buddha
      experienced and later called reaching Nirvana. At this
      stage, consciousness merges with that which is prior to
      consciousness. The experience of it is like entering a deep
      sleep state while remaining fully present. Here, one is
      fully present and fully absent. There is no movement in
      that state, only absolute stillness exists. The absolute
      stillness is the presence of the Uncreated. And the
      presence of the Uncreated is the absence of consciousness.
      The meeting between these two is called the Absolute State.
      The ultimate experience is of non-abidance.

      Susan Segal: Walking home from that bus ride, she felt like
      a "cloud of awareness" following the body. The cloud was a
      witness located behind and to the left of the body and
      completely separate from body, mind and emotions. The
      witness was constant and so was the fear, the fear of
      complete physical dissolution. The witnessing continued for
      several months, even during sleep, and Segal had to endure
      the fear and the accompanying stress, finding relief in
      long and frequent sleeps.



      I share your questions,... : "What's the use of such
      'enlightenment' ?".

      But as you can see, you cannot 'win' over a 'non-dualistic'
      Mentality. Paradoxes and concept-permutations, ad infinitum
      .. : they say "it's _Your_ problem if you believe there is
      such a thing as 'enlightenmnet and love' .. (and yet books
      keep on being sold, 'transcendental' web- sites spring up
      like mushrooms, and more and more persons declare 'I am
      enlightened) .. and You are not... as a matter of fact:
      _'You' are an annoying not-yet-grown-up, who is not to be
      tolerated at My forum.. because you just do not understand
      me.. but an 'enlightened one' like me is qualified to play
      the 'divine'-kick-butt game and shower you with 4
      letter-words,.. for your own good and out of love,.. but
      Not You, you may not do that .. 'cause what do you think..
      that you are enlightened/God or something ?! .. bwahahaha
      !'. At least, this is basically the message I got, from
      some enlightened 'particular lady'.

      Like one friend explained to me, that an enlightened
      moderator/site- owner, has the right to say :"if you do not
      like it, Fu** you.. Exit !, ..it's My site/game.. I decide
      around here and keep the people I like .. !".

      So 'Inquiry into Truth', is converted into 'MY
      game..like&dislike'. So,.. Discussion finished. Chess mate.
      So, if you think you did not get any straight & direct
      answer "it's Your fault.. because you do not understand
      that 'it's all illusion'.. and because you are not
      enlightened yet, like I am". Double chess mate.

      That is more or less, the verbal
      map/procedural-prescription, as far as I can see. This is
      not to deny the possibility, that some do
      'see/understand'.. nor the possibilty that some have become
      experts at non-dualistic dialogue an verbiage.. or rather

      So if someone asks you 'what are you looking for at my
      web-site ?'.. if you reply 'Truth or enlightenment or
      transcendence', they might laugh at you. However if you
      reply : 'well, I am here to exchange cooking recipees..'
      (the like of which, I've seen at some non-dualistic site)
      that seems to be considered by the non-dual mentality, as
      rather cute and beyond duality.

      So if you can learn the 'map'.. you might have a chance to
      survive at some sites an be able to avoid instant
      deletion,.. but, if you want what the site's declared
      intention is, then you are doomed.

      Lovely game.
      They call it 'divine'..
      or nothing special,
      or ordinary.
      Yes, perhaps very 'ordinary', is right.
      So, let's watch TV.



      Isn't it a total waste of time trying to decide whether
      another person is enlightened? What is going on with that?
      What's the use of it? Is there a user? Is that it, a
      question of utility, of deciding, can I be of utility to
      this one or can this one be of utility to me? Beneath it
      all the river runs, clear black water, useless. And am not
      I alone the useless one? Not alone

      Not I
      Not useless
      No one



      "Isn't it a total waste of time trying to decide whether
      another person is enlightened?" --Andrew

      Not necessarily. If you were looking at teachers this might
      be a consideration.

      The waste of time talking about enlightenment is in the
      making of a big deal out of it. If you suddenly knew how to
      make a million bucks easily, you could do something with
      that information.

      When clarity informs the mind that the Self is realized,
      you really can't do anything with the information. You
      might try to tell others about it as long as you're ready
      for lots of doubt and criticism. Only the most ambitious or
      karmically destined seem to make empires out of their
      understanding, but that's getting a lot harder to do



      THE DOT

      Yes, I like the dot a lot, why not!

      The finite “dot” is the archetype of creation. It defines
      or expresses itself as itself and by what it is not,
      everything else -or infinity. Everything else in creation,
      including us, follows this prototype: being both finite and
      infinite. This explains the difficulty of using language
      and communication in defining things unambiguously, since
      everything is both what it is and what it isn’t, both
      finite and infinite. This is why the truth of “what is”
      -reality, can not be expressed with words. How can a word
      define something as itself and at the same time mean
      everything else? Pretty confusing, eh. Words can be seen as
      the agency of conditioning and why realization arises to
      see the meaning of things beyond words.

      So take care with your words...




      Enlightenment, salvation and the rising sun

      ok numnutz, you got a catchy subject there. whatcha going
      to do with it? hem and haw and harumph and release other
      odious airs? laugh perhaps - what a concept -
      enlightenment, apperception, super duper conciousness,
      higher states, inter-dimentional understanding.

      what a joke! a farce! a tradgedy in the classical sense.

      the love of story keeps the story going - it is only story.
      fantastical, living, breathing, and miraculous. All of it!

      it is all a mind game. wrap your head around whatever makes
      your elevator go all the way up. or just buy into whatever
      makes your toast come out exactly right. hah! have fun with
      it. you have been all along.

      get really wrapped up tightly enough in your cozy of
      cozies. then look around at this thing we sometimes refer
      to as an illusion. is this the kind of game you enjoy
      playing? really?

      you like war?! buncha dumbshits...grumble..mumble

      here, one more time. just for the kid who sits up front and
      keeps asking the same damn questions. :-)

      there is no difference between the illusion and the
      reality. they are they same. and that's the shits, isn't
      it? :-)

      sounds like a cantakerous old fool just a talking to

      that character you are playing is not going to get to be
      around forever. you are the universe playing that


      however (oh dontcha just love those sneaky little
      "howevers"), ahem, however, the setup appears to be that
      somehow you forgot. so, there you go. sheesh!

      then the next thing you know you are busting your ass
      trying to remember. sucker! oops, i mean seeker.

      pass the duffnuts and the joe. urp!

      oh sure, next you'll be saying that god or God if you
      prefer was feeling lonely so He or he if you prefer,
      decided to divide up into people and throw a party.

      there is peace that surpasses all understanding. find it.
      don't take my word for it but this is how you can find that
      peace. a workable formula. nah, just something you could

      be willing to live one hour of one day with out beliefs or
      concepts. just try for a few minutes to let all beliefs go
      all concepts pass on by. now, don't get goofy about it.
      don't slip off into some polyanna fairy land. go about your
      normal routines of work and kids and such. take care of
      business as required. as you go about your day and those
      thought and emotions arise and demand attention, watch

      that's it. that's all you do. treat your inner dialog as it
      were something seen on the television screen. be careful
      though or this could happen to you.

      you start to become so detached from yourself that one day
      a little man appears in your conciousness. he looks just
      like you only beaten down, miserable and lethargic. when he
      sees that you are staring at him he straightens his back,
      squares his shoulders, lifts up his chine and asks - why
      kill me?

      and oh man wow you feel like you just had some kind of
      great breakthrough. truly you have - but it is only story.

      well i just made that up about the little man. but that
      little man is you and is me. if you really want
      enlightenment/understanding, go for it.

      me, i'll settle for doughnuts and milk served by smiling
      happy children. ah yes.

      peace, it's not just a state of being, it's a job.

      loveya - michael

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