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Friday, January 25

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  • Jerry Katz
    VALERIE Hi it s me Valerie in Alaska - I was akvalerian@yahoo.com - then went away to Mexico but got chased off by the jejenes (aka noseeums), then was in
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 27, 2002

      Hi it's me Valerie in Alaska - I was 'akvalerian@...'
      - then went away to Mexico but got chased off by the
      jejenes (aka noseeums), then was in Oregon for a month
      approx., now am back and at the ol' computer again.

      While I was in Oregon I was reacquainted with a dear man
      who was the closest thing I had to a father in high school,
      and he had contracted Hepatitis C in the small amount of
      time he had abused his body in his youth. He has always
      been the *strong* one - a shining star in the nighttime -
      and he has spent a lifetime working hard for a company and
      raising 2 very sharp daughters to adulthood and owns 2
      houses now. He went all thru AA and NA and has really
      helped aLOT of people in his life. However, upon the onset
      of this Hepatitis C, he was in so much pain he could not
      work anymore and became housebound. His wife left him for a
      married man and very vindictively said untrue things to the
      doctors which made it neccessary for him to wait a year to
      receive a liver. He was able to receive early retirement,
      but still being housebound and in such bad physical shape
      was not his style. I was priviledged while in Oregon to
      have a short visit with him, and I had the most peculiar
      feeling - I wish the visit could have been longer, but hey
      - he was Richard - I expected him to thrive.

      Here in Alaska everybody's on the rag - got 'Seasonal
      Affective Disorder' or somethin - and tonight I thought to
      call him because of ALL people, he's got a legitimate

      well, the X-wife answered the phone and let me know that he
      passed away last Saturday. He had been the strong one to
      the end, she said, comforting the people there grieving for
      him, letting them know he was ready to pass on, he had too
      much pain, not being himself, ready to be with the Lord.

      Where did he go? He wasn't all into Krishna or Hindu or
      Buddhism or the Vedas or the Bhagavan. Heck - I wonder if
      he was even a very good Christian - he was just a good
      hearted, honest, down-to-earth kinda guy. I can't say he
      wasn't even spiritual, because i didn't really know his
      heart about his true beliefs - he just really didn't
      practice or read much about it - maybe in the AA and NA he
      discovered his Higher Power. But where do we go when we
      die? Is it like a hologram - do we go where we *think*
      we're going to go? Do we project our own realities when we
      die? Or is there really another spiritual world somewhere
      ready-made awaiting our souls when we've been good, and
      another one when we've been bad? Is there one place for the
      truly enlightened yogis, and another for the denser
      'salt-of-the-earth' types? Do some souls, released from
      their carnal bondage, just get to wander around in freedom?

      I suppose I must sound simplistic to some (or all), as
      these are age-old questions. But I just found out about the
      death of one of my closest friends in my life so far, and
      he wasn't that much older either - maybe 49 or 50. I just
      want to know - where did my friend Richard go?


      Dear Valerie,

      In the immediacy of your loss and grief, it surely may feel
      as if a chunk of your heart has been ripped away and left a
      gaping hole. Whatever future scenario for Richard anyone
      might project to comfort you, the cold fact is that it
      would be second hand and subject still to your own criteria
      of belivableness. What you do know first hand is how much
      it hurts now that he is no longer here where you can speak
      with him and touch him.

      That immediacy of loss is something we all have first hand
      knowledge about from experience. You will want to spend a
      lot of time thinking about Richard and going over memories
      of him and feeling your love for him as sorrow. Eventually
      what remains is again feeling your love for him as joy and
      gratitude for ever knowing him at all. You know he lives on
      in your heart and in all the many lives he has touched. At
      least one continuation of Richard is in how his way of
      being in this world continues through them to others and
      never really can end. For every life he has influenced
      passes on his love and caring to others. This morning,
      through you, Richard has spoken to all of us here. He has
      affirmed once again those values his life exemplified.

      Thank you for the gift of Richard, Valerie.

      People who serve in AA are spiritual activists of the
      highest order who demonstrate with actions rather than talk
      about their beliefs. Many are anonymous saints, they save
      lives. They offer friendship, welcome, and real help that
      works for alcoholics and drug addicts. And it's free. That
      they can do this without preaching or requiring any
      particular religious creed or beliefs from those they help
      is possible because they offer themselves as a living
      example that AA can work. Last I heard their batting
      average surpassed many expensive drug treatment facilities,
      and even those programs usually recommend AA for followup
      and maintenance of sobriety.

      So would you rather have a friend like Richard or be handed
      a book of religious beliefs? All these religions exist
      primarily as a way of possibly producing someone like a
      Richard. I would say he did indeed "practice" with the life
      he lived. That he also suffered disease, pain, loss, and
      betrayal without becoming embittered by them tells a lot
      about the state of his heart and understanding. To the end,
      comforting those who came to grieve for him. What is more
      "enlightened" than that? So if God were running a pass/fail
      system here, Richard would be a shoe in. But why would a
      God be interested in grading anyone? No, he invites people
      to celebration parties when the prodigal son returns home.

      You asked: ? Or is there really another spiritual world
      somewhere ready-made awaiting our souls when we've been
      good, and another one when we've been bad?

      A spiritual world would not be like a physical place, more
      like a place in consciousness. Jesus said the kingdom of
      God is right here and now, spread among men, and they see
      it not. It sounds like Richard did see it. If he found
      heaven right here, living within his spiritual awareness,
      where else would he go? He was already home.

      With love,


      (What)you wrote is so vivid and moving that I
      printed it out, mayhaps to inspire a painting or a poem
      with such simple truth and thankyou for it. We here with
      our armchairs and our computers and our philosophies are
      quite the uppercrust, you know. Everywhere people are in
      poverty, unemployed, starving, addicts, depressed, and in
      the most unfortunate cases, at war and/or amidst violence.
      Being able to discuss (or argue, ahem!) the fine points of
      advanced spirituality is really quite the luxury! And
      you're right - it's not the same, nor are the books the
      same as actually being out there on the front lines living
      those same philosophies and beliefs. What an excellent
      point! The finger pointing at the moon is NOT the moon, or
      how did that go? Perhaps by studiously discussing and
      reading holy writs we acquire the fruits of the spirit,
      that we might remember and be filled with grace when we are
      actually called to show mercy or patience or overcome some
      other challenge in real life. (then again - define "real
      life") ...I haven't met many naturally born front-line
      warriors such as Richard - didn't learn it from a book or
      ever quote anybody (like me. i.e.). love from a frozen
      world, valerie



      The transcendence that Ed seems to be pointing to might be
      best realized in a very private conversation.

      When Gene speaks of peer-to-peer conversation, I wonder if
      that needs to occur in small group or on a focused list,
      and whether it can occur on an open list with others
      yanking the conversation apart.

      As I see it, it is all the same thing.

      As to the issue of 'others tearing the conversation apart',
      it seems this does not occur, if participants are actually
      interested in continuing to interact. And this addresses
      the issue of 'what is a peer'; we do not need to qualify
      our peerdom, it is assumed. If anyone assumes differently,
      such a one will 'stand out like a sore thumb'.

      It seems to me, that there needs to be addressed, the
      putative protocols of lists such as this.

      Is Jerry's original vision for NDS what is happening here?
      If not, is the deviation desirable, or is it fatal to the
      purpose of this list?

      Because a list 'is communication', the issue of
      communication is IMO, always topical, as a constant issue,
      at a level below the stated topic of the list. And I think
      this what Jerry was addressing in his post.



      speaking for myself,
      kindergarten would be way too advanced.

      forget all this krishna stuff.
      forget your great experiences.
      forget everything that comes to you
      when you wake up in the morning.

      trade krishna for knishes!

      sit in a deli and gaze at the people
      have a knish.
      drink soda.
      order a piece of cake.
      sip coffee.
      buy a piece of candy when you pay your bill.
      go outside.
      be there. be free. just be.

      useless, hopeless, lost,



      The tape plays out in front of our face.
      But it seems so real, like in the movie Brainstorm.
      I've heard myself say this before,
      "But it seems so real"

      I have a test, that fails me now.
      If it's a dream and I want to be sure,
      Levatate and fly.
      I've shown myself, that this test does
      not always work.
      I can't fly, so it's not a dream,
      and I wake up anyways.
      Damn, I missed another one!

      But when I dream, and take control,
      I can do just about anything.
      Fly, pass through walls,
      even have sex with incredible babes!

      Naw, but what more?
      Go to dimensions, untold.
      Yes, now there's something.
      Detail, like here, untold detail.
      Stuff I could never explain,
      because it isn't physical.

      Who's there in that dream?
      I don't have a body,
      and faster than light. No restrictions,
      except.... it's not me in that dream,
      and it's the same One that's in THIS

      No doubt about it.
      It seems so real,
      all I have to do is ...... fly,
      to prove it..

      Love , love, love and Light,



      The certainty that comes
      with the sudden cessation
      of conceptual thought
      is that there is nothing
      that has absolute existence
      there is nowhere to stand
      nothing to rely on.
      Beliefs and visions
      argument and philosophy
      can't stand up to that.


      There is no belief required, the certainty is that there is
      no me and no god.

      A vision of god coming alive in a picture is pure



      Oh man, this is too much, one of those syncronicity things; at the same
      Nina shares her pizza experience, I get an ecard from Bobbi! Bobbi is a
      poorly paid, bored, unhappy pizza person friend of mine, but has his
      eye on a rich
      lady that stops in for lunch. I wish him well. John The ecard has


      ( Any ideas as to how to get this image of Gloria reading poetry in her
      underwear out of my head? It's leading to insomnia and over-indulgence,
      outright inordinate desire for warm apple fritters and cold milk. Help
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