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ND highlights for Wednesday

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  • Melody
    Nonduality Salon highlights for Wednesday, Sept 1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On 8/31/99 at 10:56 PM magus@cet.com wrote: [...] ...
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 2, 1999
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      Nonduality Salon highlights for Wednesday, Sept 1
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      On 8/31/99 at 10:56 PM magus@... wrote:

      [...]
      >It amuses me to consider that if and when humans ever
      establish colonies on
      >other planets, that by that time, the technology of what is
      now the
      >'internet' will probably allow linking to those remote
      outposts.
      >
      >In fact... it is possible that one may someday be able to
      actually
      >'teleport' themselves to faraway places, using the equivalent
      of today's
      >home computer system. I sincerely hope that in that future,
      Microsoft is
      >not the dominant software maker. I hesitate to imagine just
      how people
      >might 'reassemble' on the other end of the relay link... not
      to mention the
      >'virus problem'.
      >
      >==Gene Poole==

      Hi Gene,

      You are raising an interesting issue. It is both easy and fun
      to assign all misery of PC computing to MS (remember the
      "immortal" joke about the helicopter?) , but it is possible to
      widen the perspective and bring in religion and meditation.

      A bit of PC history:
      When all of a sudden, IBM wanted a piece of the cake, seeing
      the success of computers like Atari, Acorn, etc., IBM was in a
      big hurry so for the "heart" of the computer a kind of mummy
      as the processor was taken, only because it could readily be
      produced. Microsoft already had designed CP/M as the 8 bit
      "standard" operating system. The combination of IBM and MS was
      the guarantee for a souped-up 8 bit processor (8088) running
      on souped-up CP/M (called DOS). After that, the buzz-word
      "backwards compatibility" was invented. It meant, on newer
      machines all the old stuff had to run as well. Thanks to that,
      there is a millennium problem. CP/M was never meant to run in
      a network and office-dwellers want to automate everything;
      this combination guarantees virus-paradise. Another point is,
      IBM produced such a !!@#&() PC that there was a need for
      hardware upgrades even before there was standardization for it
      :) This guaranteed the possibility for hardware conflicts and
      crashes (remember the Plug & Pray hype over "eliminating"
      those conflicts, many years later?).

      A parallel can be seen, when a new religion is introduced. If
      "favorite old stuff" is incorporated, the chance for success &
      popularity is increased, at the risk of losing the clarity and
      simplicity, meant by the "reformer". In the course of events,
      it will become impossible to see what was taken over and what
      wasn't; clarity and simplicity will be lost. Matters like
      reincarnation, creation, the existence of God, souls, heaven
      and hell aren't essential for "knowing what IS"; rather, these
      matters can be distractions. When a PC is newly designed with
      modern hard- and software and doesn't have to face backwards
      compatibility, it can be fast, bug-, virus- and
      crash-resistant, easy to program too. Likewise, when the mind
      dispenses with what isn't essential, it gains clarity and
      speed of operation.

      Jan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From "Christopher Wynter" <wynter@...>

      From my experience ...

      Enlightenment ... or end of darkness ..

      comes when the conscious and the unconscious are no longer in conflict ...

      then there is only bliss
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      > In deep sleep state there is no memory and there is no "I -
      > thought". But it
      > is not identical with Samaadhi. Similarly, erasure of memory is
      > only removal
      > of clutter. True liberation should come when one consciously realizes the
      > ultimate 'unreality' of memory ,ego, and all of their by-products, lock ,
      > stock and barrel ; "completely and instantly".
      >
      > Pranams,
      > Vijayakumar

      What you say makes sense. Both in deep sleep and in Nirvikalpa Samadhi,
      there is no "I" thought, and there is no memory, as the functioning of the
      mind (of which memory is the byproduct) remains absorbed. But the two states
      are not the same as in Nirvikalpa Samadhi, there is fullness of awareness,
      fullness of bliss, independent of mind, memory, etc. The question is raised
      that when someone comes out of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, do they not recall the
      state through the medium of mind and memory? My perspective is that
      Nirvikalpa Samadhi, although it is experiential, at the same time reveals
      the ground of all experience as Being only the Self. Therefore,
      Self-Recognition, though giving life to mind and memory, is seen completely
      independent of it. Self does not require an external medium (such as memory)
      to Recognize It Self and to Be It Self. As far as what True Liberation is,
      what you say makes sense, although anything that can be said beyond
      Nirvikalpa is pure speculation from a mental perspective. All states of
      experience and knowledge and all such perspectives disappear in Nirvikalpa.

      Harsha

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: "Mirror" <mirror@...>

      Dear subscribers,
      I just subscribed to the Nonduality Salon, and I've been reading your posts
      here. I subscribed to the list to share a mutual interest in what we call
      non-duality. But even that word to me remains to be just another title for
      that which we cannot explain, no matter how hard we try, no matter how many
      words we spend on it.
      Still, to me, to spend as many words as we can find on the 'inexpressable'
      is what I enjoy most.
      However, none of all expressions, pointers and analogies that I have ever
      read or used to express existence, have ever come close to the simplicity
      that it truly is. To wake up has been the simpelest thing I have ever done
      in my entire life, for it was the only thing that needed no effort, needed
      no understanding, needed no circumstances. The waking state is the only
      self-supporting state there is. And it gave me such a deep laugh when I saw
      that that's how it always had been, that it never was any different,
      regardless of all 'my' efforts. And when I found out that there never even
      was a 'me' who had made all the efforts, I really rolled over.
      But still I fail to describe it even now. I feels kind of appropriate to
      refer to it as 'the waking state', as if it were a state that was not there
      when I was asleep. But the waking state includes all states, regardless of
      sleep and ignorance. And actually, it is not a 'state' either.
      You see?
      I can't describe. All words come from it. Yet I fail miserably.
      Still. It's great fun trying.
      Love,
      Mirror

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      I am curious about images, veils and doorways.
      I think of Castanada and living inside a bubble in
      which what we see is really our "own" stuff being
      reflected back to us. This is how I see images. Images
      on the inside of the bubble which we have projected
      out and are being reflected back. And the idea that we
      are created in God's image. Or we are God's images.
      Now veils I see as
      a cover to hide from those can cannot see. Slight distortions
      to keep those who might misuse either through ignorance
      or intentionally. Doorways or portals I have not really
      considered but perhaps you have to get to the doorway or
      into the portal. I think it was Alice Bailey (ducking here <s>)
      who talked about the Dweller on the Threshold or the thing
      at the threshold (portal, doorway?) which if one was not
      prepared would knock one straight down to the bottom of
      the stairway. Different for each person.

      Marcia

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Does it make sense when I say that you are aware of yourself? Yourself as a
      person, with a body, with thoughts, with emotions?
      Now see that it is not the person who is aware.
      It's the other way around.
      There is awareness of a person being present.
      You are this awareness, not this person.

      Now as I said, I am not very good at explaining this. But I'll try if you
      wish.

      Love,
      Mirror
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      From: Xanma@...

      Here's my version of the creation myth:

      Beingness was being - eternally.

      Somehow, beingness, which we
      now call love, began to vibrate
      some of itself into waves we now
      call sound, and somehow sound
      vibrated on itself into waves we
      now call light.

      Love as sound and light serpentined
      itself into complexities and, love
      enjoyed the dance evolving itself
      as music, color and movement.

      Variations upon variations
      erupted and merged and
      imagined themselves, in the
      flash of a moment. Then slowing
      and slowing, a slow dance of
      light and sound forms eased into
      time and space and solidity.

      Somehow, there became
      imagined fragments - boundaries -
      in the continuous flow of beingness
      evolving as sound and light and joy.

      Somehow, some of these fragments
      enjoyed so much the uniqueness of
      their own expressions that they clung
      to them, resisting the unending
      newness of the dance. In clinging
      to their imagined individuality they
      lost awareness of the whole and
      began to feel lost from love beingness,
      original sound and light, and even
      enjoyment. The lost ones turned
      against each other, wanting to find
      blame for their loss, and they turned
      even against themselves in their
      confusion, fear and shame.

      The lostness was seen by the flowing
      dancers, and so they reached to
      the lost ones in any way that could
      be danced. Some flowing dancers
      even learned to be lost so they could
      dance more closely with the lost ones
      back to awareness of being whole.

      Lost one began dancing with
      flowing ones, though some were
      danced in a hidden way and did
      not even know how they became
      found whole again. No-longer-lost
      dancers were watchful of their previous
      habit of trying to dance while clinging,
      so they could stop immediately when
      they noticed themselves holding on.

      Until all danced freely again.

      love
      xan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From http://www.lysator.liu.se/~ceci/current/moon_specific.html

      "In Tarot tradition, the Moon represents unconscious desires and the fears
      that accompany the sense of losing control or falling into the unconscious
      realm of sleep and dreams. However, if one is afraid to enter one's own
      astral territory, one can never truly know oneself - and the mystery of
      initiation is about little more than this.
      The real confrontation that the Moon represents is the meeting with the
      "Dweller on the Threshold" of which occult and esoteric teachers speak.
      This is the giant force of accumulated evil or wrongdoings, the hideous
      part of the self that a person would rather not look at and would like to
      pretend doesn't exist, and which rises up at the point of real psychic
      growth. This "demon" must not only be looked at, but integrated into the
      being, in order to establish wholeness."


      Melody:
      Sounds like Jung's 'Shadow', doesn't it?


      And here's part of Van Morrison's lyric:

      _Dweller on the Threshold_


      I'm a dweller on the threshold
      And I'm waiting at the door
      And I'm standing in the darkness
      I don't want to wait no more
      I have seen without perceiving
      I have been another man
      Let me pierce the realm of glamour
      So I know just what I am

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Dan:
      the Dweller on the Threshold is a mythical figure
      that predates Alice Bailey by millenia. The Dweller on the
      Threshold could be considered as the necessary encounter of
      Self with everything it wants to avoid by "having" the Truth.
      E.g., it may want to avoid being humbled, or its own power,
      or love, or being nothing, or loss. The intent to avoid is not
      the intent that will reveal Truth.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Melody:
      I see images as doorways.

      Although a door can be seen by some as a wall of separation.

      To me, it's just another portal.

      It just depends on how one uses it.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: Kristie Shelloner <orleans@...>

      I wish not to come to wakefulness
      rather would I sleep
      though neither calm nor restfull
      I sink into the deep

      where no awareness rises
      of the passages of time,
      yet the wakeful daily demons
      still skate across my rhyme.

      I look through tender hallways
      to see my shadow there
      but only find at sunrise
      a shell that's thin and bare.

      In sleeping dreams I taste the taste
      of all the bitter times laid waste
      in ashes and despair
      of things I thought
      and martyred bought
      and no longer stand to care

      I would I could lay simply down
      and never rise to see them;
      and stand alone
      on shredded bone
      to free them, simply free them.


      Love,
      not struggling or managing or trying to make it go away, just being where
      I'm at: yuck,
      Kristi
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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