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Saturday, December 15

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  • Jerry Katz
    JACK I overheard somebody in the forest the other day to say that enlightenment is where there is the total and absolute possibility to adopt all or any
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 16, 2001
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      JACK

      I overheard somebody in the forest the other day to say that
      enlightenment is where there is the total and absolute
      possibility to adopt all or any viewpoint(s).

      We all know we want our children to really believe, adopt the
      viewpoint that inherently mankind is good. But children know
      they are not always good and very often even when they are,
      they would prefer not to be.

      We can see this contradicts, what they told by their parents
      from the parental belief systems, and therefore this makes a
      child a monster in his own eyes.

      Enlightened beings out of their compassion i understand seem
      to go on adopting a multitude of viewpoints to show us how
      fixed we are in our viewpoint about what belongs in the good
      camp and in the bad camp.

      I suppose you are one of these enlightened beings, but what I
      don't understand, if all is one, then how do we manage to
      split it into two -

      -----------------

      th the deepest respect to you mentioning that you ( the
      USofA) are at war since September and with the majority
      collectively entering from the limbic brain system into the
      reptilian old brain in order not to feel the consequences of
      engaging in war, it's no wonder that many people are not so
      in a feeling experience.

      There is one re-occurring concept that life is suffering that
      does not seem to want to go away. I have this awful suspicion
      that really that life is suffering and it doesn't matter who
      the body is - just to take a birth one enters the realm of
      suffering and from that moment on everything that one does,
      and I mean everything, is to find a way out.

      But after a library of books, videos, tapes and CD's,
      spiritual talks, insights, collective agreements, viewpoints,
      experiences, not a single thing has changed. There's been
      modifications of the suffering, all which would appear to be
      nothing other than re-arranging the deckchairs on the
      titanic.

      The amount of denial that we manage to produce in order to
      simply experience without any mood altercating substances
      (idealisations, concepts or belief systems) is simply
      staggering.

      The simple fact that to take birth means that one is either
      going to suffer consciously to enter into the suffering in
      its fullest dimensions or enter into avoidance of the
      inevitable.

      It's been said that the great awakening is not an experience,
      that it's prior to all experience, bliss or hell, ecstasy, or
      damnation.

      The difficulty we have, it would appear when we finally
      become conscious that we've entered into human realm, the
      realm of suffering, and the more conscious we attempt to
      come, the more painful the experience.

      If it is as they say it is that we are the subjective and
      personal awareness, simply awareness aware of all experiences
      as they roll on through and to identify with the minutest
      interest we enter into the creation.

      Where the game seems to get somewhat interesting is there is
      no way out of this creation unless its fully experienced. And
      look at us all, screaming and kicking blatantly denying that
      we were never really interested in it in the first place.

      I am told that Ramana Maharshi never even entered into
      discussion about the second world war, although someone did
      mention that Hitler was said to be a fully awakened being.

      If we are that which is simply awareness witnessing this
      impersonal play of consciousness whether it be the events of
      Sept. 11th or any other horrific event - Vietnam, Korea, then
      surely somewhere we have to accept that there has never not
      been a time of suffering.

      I know of no-one anywhere at any time who is not in a state
      of suffering or placing massive energy and avoidance to avoid
      suffering.

      I would be interested if anyone on this particular egroup can
      honestly consciously really feel that they themselves are not
      suffering at all times.

      We can never understand the power of denial.

      It would appear simply to be born is to suffer. It would also
      appear that we are not that which is born. We are the
      impersonal witnessing of that which is born which has to
      suffer.

      ______________________________________________________________________

      SU GANDOLF

      "We all know we want our children to really believe, adopt
      the viewpoint that inherently mankind is good. But children
      know they are not always good and very often even when they
      are, they would prefer not to be.

      "We can see this contradicts, what they told by their parents
      from the parental belief systems, and therefore this makes a
      child a monster in his own eyes." --Jack

      "People say, 'Oh, I wish I were in touch with my childhood
      self, like you!' As if it were all quaint and succulent, like
      Peter Pan. CHILDHOOD IS CANNIBALS AND PSYCHOTICS VOMITING IN
      YOUR MOUTH! I say, 'You are in touch, lady - you're mean to
      your kids, you treat your husband like shit, you lie, you're
      selfish... that is your childhood self!' In reality,
      childhood is deep and rich. It's vital, mysterious, and
      profound. I remember my own childhood vividly... I knew
      terrible things... but I knew I mustn't let adults know I
      knew... *It would scare them*."

      --Maurice Sendak

      ___________________________________________________________________________

      GENE POOLE

      NDS

      Greetings Jerry and All;

      Jerry, your recent posting has prompted me to put certain of
      my thoughts to post.

      How else can I say this; the world changed, on September 11,
      2001.

      And 'we are at war'.

      There are many heavy considerations ongoing; much uncertainty
      and widely expressed insecurity.

      In other words, for a great many people, the entire context
      of 'life' has unexpectedly and even radically changed, and
      continues to change.

      At every quarter, there are discussions and opinions being
      hurled, to ricochet about in the skull of the observer.
      Opinion is offered as truth; loyalties are being severely
      tested, the entire of politics is undergoing change. Nobody
      knows best.

      It is not surprising that such upheaval does reflect in NDS.

      Locally, the 'changes' are just now being acknowledged as
      more than transitory. Economic and social forces are making
      inroads which many find disappointing if not frightening.
      Many people see evil portents in a wide spectrum of current
      'events'.

      The recently released videotape of O Bin Laden chortling; the
      US Gov/Bush admin movement toward what could easily be
      interpreted as fascist alignments; gross financial insecurity
      'recession', anthrax, and the persistence of Hollywood
      bullshit; all of this converges, and in spite of best
      intentions, it does get through. Samsara is knocking
      insistently on our collective door, and the temptation is to
      answer in kind.

      Nothing remains the same, at least in the universe of humans
      who are connected via our network of instant communications
      systems. And that includes our favorite mailing list, NDS.

      On the other hand...

      Grounding in 'nondual' reveals that 'nothing has changed',
      but this view is incomprehensible to those not so-grounded.
      Indeed, why would anyone dare contradict widely held public
      grief, knowing that 'nothing can change'? Can the nondual
      perspective 'fix' anything?

      I see that what is going on is an intensely personal
      experience, not really amenable to grooming by public
      reaction or opinion. Each of us has experienced personal
      loss, if only loss of certain happy, air-headed dreams,
      fantasies, and desires. It seems that there has been a loud
      voice saying, 'time to grow up', and that voice is not
      shutting up. This seems to be a time of deep contemplation.

      Personally, my tolerance for narcissistic bullshit has been
      reduced to approximately zero.

      There is no possibility of 'back to normal'; the future may
      hold a new 'norm', but such is simply not available at
      present, unless the eternal unchanging is available and is
      defined as 'norm'.

      __________________________________________________________________

      GLORIA LEE

      The mountains, rivers, earth, grasses, trees and forests, are
      always emanating a subtle, precious light, day and night,
      always emanating a subtle, precious sound, demonstrating and
      expounding to all people the unsurpassed ultimate truth.

      It is just because you miss it right where you are, or avoid
      it even as you face it, that you are unable to attain actual
      use of it. This is why Buddhism came into being, with its
      many expedients and explanations, with temporary and true,
      immediate and gradual, half and full, partial and complete
      teachings.

      These are all simply means of stopping children from
      whining."

      Monk protests: "But Master, yesterday you said that Mind is
      Buddha."

      Ma Tsu: "That was like offering yellow leaves to a child and
      telling him it is gold---just to stop his crying."

      Monk: "And what about when the child has stopped crying?"

      Ma Tsu: "Then I say, Not Mind, Not Buddha, Not things!"

      __________________________________________________________________

      JERRY

      Life might be pain sometimes, but pain is not suffering.
      Suffering is failure to understand the source of pain and
      joy, and the attachment of causes, questions and consequences
      to pain and joy.

      ___________________________________________________________________

      GILL EARDLEY from Nondual Quotes list

      Remember: if you can cease all restless activity, your
      integral nature will appear.

      from: The Hua Hu Ching
       

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