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11/20/01 Tuesday

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  • Gloria Lee
    *************** RON I am with Rashmi, we will cry together. I can sit in meditation, in the emptiness of I AM, the vastness of nothing, peace spilling over
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 21, 2001
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      ***************
       

      RON

      I am with Rashmi, we will cry together.

      I can sit in meditation, in the emptiness of I AM, the vastness of
      nothing, peace spilling over everywhere.  The thoughts come and go and
      occationally grab my attention.  I move back to the peace, to the
      emptiness - remain. Sometimes no thoughts at all. With thoughts -
      inquiring into Who am I.  The identity of the body remains through it
      all.  I come back into activity with that emptiness trailing behind
      me, or arround me.  But the identity of the body remains.

      What is this thing called "Identity". - Just another thought?

      Rashmi, pass your hanky.

      Ron


      JAN B.
       
      Which reminds of the simple question:
      "What makes the mind an infertile soil for thought?"
      When realizing that true happiness cannot be obtained
      by any pursuit. All pursuit given up, is the meaning
      of unconditional surrender. Another way of saying
      this is "meeting Yama" (Lord of Death) - sooner or later
      everything will have to be left "behind" -
      irrespective of thoughts or feelings concerning that...
      And yes, it will hurt - that is the "cost" of sentience.

      Peace,
      Jan

      JAMES
       

          Thanks Jan,

              Yes, the mind cannot go beyond the mind.
              The intellectual attempt to "control over the activities of
      mind" is a movement of the mind which is limited to its own
      boundaries. The best that one can hope for with this approach is to
      rearrange the furnishings of the mind.

             Yoga includes and is beyond the mind.

             Since the bodymind is an interconnected whole, the most
      effective (not the only one) Yoga approach to a Silent mind is through
      the Space of the body and the link of the breath.
             When there is this Space the waveforms of the mind
      relax/release into the ocean of Stillness. The content of the mind is
      available for practical functions and there is no identification with
      movement that arises and falls.

          Love,
          James


      GREG
       
      Rashmi Moorjani wrote:

      Can it be summed up this way?
      >In a
      conceptual entity, the apperception of the true identity
      >may "occur". Not
      as an act of will, but through pure non-
      >volitionality on part of the
      conceptual entity-Sandeep Chatterji

      Well, that's saying something slightly different from your question
      yesterday.  But yes, both the supposed do-er and its doings are witnessed
      objects.  Witnessed objects can't cause anything to happen.  Just like in a
      movie, the image of a bullet doesn't kill the image of a person.  Since the
      willing and the do-er and any "actions" are never more than witnessed
      objects, they arise and are seen, but possess no power to do anything or
      cause anything.  So they cannot cause anything like perception, seeing, or
      apperception.

      --Gregerji
       

      RON
       
      EGO AND THE SELF

      Questioner:  What meditation will help me?

      Bhagavan Ramana:  No meditation on any kind of object is helpful.  You
      must learn to realize the subject and object as one.  In meditating on
      an object, whether concrete or abstract you are destroying the sense
      of oneness and creating duality.  Meditate on what you are in Reality.
      Try to realize that the body is not you, the emotions are not you, the
      intellect is not you.  When all these are still you will find.
      ~~~~
      Is this related to feelings or thoughts of suicide?  This occurs when
      the loss of meaning is so great there seems no reason to continue.
      ~~~~

      The "suicide" mentioned here may be a strong term.  This is not the
      depression associated with pain and not being able to deal with life. 
      It is more like Jan said "All pursuit given up".  There seems to be a
      natural giving up but there has been no replacement thus life at
      times has no meaning. 

      SU
       
      Is the pursuit of "meaning" happening? Maybe there is no "reason to
      continue", there just is what is. Clouds moving west to east,
      temperature dropping, sun shining, shadow on the desk, heart beating,
      doubt, awareness, thoughts of suicide...

      Yes, it is a strong term. I am still not sure why you used it here,
      as if it had a meaning secondary to "to take one's life"?


      GLORIA
       
      Well Ron, they don't call it ego death for nothing. There's a reason why for thousands of years those serious about spiritual matters have gone into ascetic monasteries and taken vows of celibacy and silence, etc. Nothing quite like it for flushing the old ego desires out where you can clearly see what you are dealing with. (Tho denial just for the sake of proving something may only result in more pride and willpower, just spiritualized ego.) Nowadays, we are more likely to have some life crisis provoke a confrontation thru sudden loss, or former pursuits seem meaningless. Replacing them with new ones may not even be a good idea.  But just look at the missing elements compared to a monastic setting where all this deprivation and experience of emptiness is in service to some higher purpose, however that may be conceived. There is a context, within which the ego death itself is meaningful. So consider what context is framing your experience of this feeling of giving up, in service of what is this happening? That may be the missing element.
       
      PS. Another missing element is being surrounded by other like-minded people, those committed and understanding what's even going on. Hey, I'm on here, cause I feel so damn alone with all this. Sometimes I even cry about it.

      JAN B.
       
      When "dead" (unconditionally surrendered, no thoughts about suicide could arise - apart from considering those thoughts with humor (Heck! i'm dead already so who cares?), as taking leave from life can happen only once.

      Both Bhakti and Sufism use terminology like "lover and beloved" - it is a kind of archetype. Even when a trace of that exists, its absence (feeling of "nil & void") is interpreted as "negative".
      That can give rise to thoughts of suicide - a signal to draw the beloved's attention.
      The analogy of "scorned love" applies... In a certain sense that's the "explanation"
      for "dark night of the soul" too...


      RASHMI
       
      I feel the need to cry! Can you please tell me something to make me
      cry Jerry. In the meantime i'm going to consider everything but my
      mind is running too fast!

      Love
       Rashmi

      JERRY

      Hi Rashmi,

      You're doing what's right for you. You are the answer. Why go beyond feeling
      the need to cry? If a person will sit with what's present, it'll reveal
      whatever needs to be revealed. There's no need to go anywhere else or to be
      in any other state.

      love,
      jerry
       



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