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Sunday, October 21

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  • jerry@nonduality.com
    RON PERRYMORE The movement or urge to abide a contracted state, (identity), only occasionally seems quick enough. My intention is to abide, stay with, and just
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 22, 2001
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      The movement or urge to abide a contracted state,
      (identity), only occasionally seems quick enough.
      My intention is to abide, stay with, and just be
      that contracted movement of identity, but it seems
      the urge arrives a beat too late... just a bit too
      late to completely process that movement to
      spasmodically contract away from infinite space.
      However when I am quick enough to see and process
      through contraction, infinite space returns potent
      with a 'nowness'.

      Within 'now' there is an endless recapitulation
      going on, identity whispers from memorys stream of
      vows taken more than a thousand years ago. Vows of
      poverty, silence, chastity and obediance. Priestly
      vows taken by a youth in love with the mystery of
      the church and with the possibility of Christs love
      for him. He would later be tortured and killed by
      the inquisition and was forced to vow to never
      again speak the truth of awakening as a catholic
      priest or even as an ordinary man...those vows have
      been recinded but the genetic stamping of horrible
      pain still seems a background murmur at times.

      The noise of un-remembered pain and the outrage of
      betrayal is present as a neurotic need rather than
      a move towards relationship and love. This core
      issue at last is being re-cognized.

      Love to all (even me), Ron



      Most non-dualists want to throw out duality
      completely. This they soon find is impossible.

      Say you have a piece of gold and a piece of copper.
      On the surface they are very different, have
      different values to human beings, etc. A scientist
      who has seen both on the sub-atomic level will tell
      you that both are the same underneath. However,
      there is no way he will exchange the gold for the

      In the same way, the Reality is non-dual. However
      this non-dual reality has arranged itself in
      different patterns to form many dual items. [Atoms
      arranged differently form different elements with
      entirely different properties]. If a human has
      experienced non-duality and knows for certain the
      non-dual nature of everything surely you do not
      expect him to act different from the scientist

      Even Ramana still had ties with his mother and
      Nisargadatta with his family. The way some listers
      attack all dualistic pointers is as if they have no
      duality in themselves! Non-duality and duality are
      two sides of the same coin. There is no way you can
      get rid of one. In other words I can see the
      non-dual Reality underneath yet talk in dualistic
      ways. I can say "God is all" and "I love God" at
      the same time.




      Concerning the interpretation of Islamic law:


      Afghanistan Online:


      Islamic Gateway:




      Hi Susan,

      You asked "what is a diehold"?

      That is a fair question. As I wrote my article, I
      assumed that I would be able to give a weblink to
      the primary page which explains all this. But, the
      link now leads only to an empty directory.

      Instead, go to this link:


      This is the first chapter of the book 'Reality
      Revealed' by Doug Vogt.

      To proceed with reading the book online, you must
      manually change the URL by replacing the chapter
      number in your browser location window like this,
      to go to chapter 2:


      Just keep on manually changing the chapter number
      and you can read or download the entire book, if it
      is all there. (If you 'save as... source' to a
      specific folder on your local disk, you will have
      the whole book to read at your leisure.)

      Here is a link to a discussion of the diehold on a
      list allied to NDS:


      Here are some other links which discuss the

      Highly technical:



      The term 'diehold' seems to have been coined to
      describe 'a place (like the hold of a ship) which
      holds the forms, templates, or 'dies' (a
      metalworking term) which pattern reality itself.

      This would necessarily mean that the diehold is
      'outside of reality', and that it 'transmits the
      information of existence' which organizes (gives
      rise to) 'all of what is'.

      Perhaps you have heard the phrase 'the die is cast'
      or 'the die has been cast'. This has nothing to do
      with gambling or dice; instead, it refers to a mold
      (die) which has been cast (made).

      Once the mold is made, everything which comes from
      it, will have the shape of the mold. 'The die is
      cast' thus states that a pattern has been laid
      down, and thus subsequent events will conform to
      the pattern. This phrase lends itself to
      assumptions about the future being predictable,
      once patterns are seen in the present.

      We can notice patterns in the present, and we are
      fond of speculating about origins. Plato put forth
      a concept of a place or dimension where the
      'original forms and essences' are located, and he
      stated that this place of origins was beyond direct
      human touch, IE, 'out of reality' as is the

      One of the greatest obsessions of modern science it
      to 'reverse-engineer' the universe, to be able to
      put hands on the most elementary controls of
      existence. Our experiments with atomic bombs and
      nuclear energy reflect this deep drive to uncover
      'the philosopher's stone', or the key to

      The leveling effect of 'nondual realization' and
      'nondual studies' allows the space and time for the
      observer to come to realize that the only way to
      gain control of the universe, is to be outside of

      We can gain control of the world-dream by being
      outside of it; we can gain control of identity by
      being outside of it. We can relax and abide the
      flux of phenomena, to eventually 'see' all of this.

      At some point along the way, it becomes apparent
      that the drive to 'understand' emanates from
      suffering. Understanding in-service-of 'control of
      the universe' seems to be an understandable, if
      actually unworkable, motive in response to the
      realization of mortality and vulnerability. The
      mortal vision of death is an attempt to peer
      closely at what cannot be seen, because it (death)
      is 'outside of this universe' in the realm of the

      The drive to understand is similar to the impulse
      which drives the salmon to to return to the place
      of its origin. In a sense, the diehold is the
      'spawning ground' of existence. But realize that
      peering intently at nothing, with the intent to
      escape death, is to put off the experience of
      smelling the roses of existence. We are showered
      with blessings beyond imagining, yet shrug them off
      in our obsession with death and mortality. We have
      not only clues, but we ourselves as awareness, are
      the answer we seek.

      It is the troublesome seeking of a vantage point
      'outside', which blinds us to our true position. We
      seek 'objectivity' and seek to overcome frivolity
      and volatile memory, for purposes which arise
      wholly from suffering. Our lifestyles are an
      ongoing confession of suffering, overlayed with a
      thin coating of glossy and unjustified confidence.
      Why the disparity between what is and what we
      assume 'should be'?

      Suffering breeds idealism; idealism is compensation
      for the animal fear of death. Humans who experience
      the connection I describe in my previous posting,
      see very clearly that human concerns are generally
      a frantic expression of lostness and disconnect.
      And this disconnect is facilitated by the attempt
      to get beyond death, to escape/migrate/spawn to the
      diehold, which exists ourside of this universe, and
      is otherwise known as the eternal Heaven afterlife.

      On the other hand, to simply abide 'in the here and
      now' will reveal reality as no book is capable of.
      Our door is being consistently 'knocked on', but
      our frantic poundings on our own side of the door
      make it impossible to hear the gentle request for
      entry which is emanating from 'the other side'.

      We are literally awash in communications of
      'truth', yet persist in attempts to decode what we
      assume has been hidden in the folds of time and
      space and energy and matter. 'Water, water
      everywhere and not a drop to drink'. To identity,
      reality tastes like salt-water; but for the
      realizer, it is the purest spring

      Gene Poole

      (* Note: I am already 'coming from outside of it'.)


      The light of recognition goes warm... :)

      I have not gone to the links yet but I will tell
      you that without reading what has been written I
      think we are in the same ball park.

      You write: The term 'diehold' seems to have been
      coined to describe 'a place > (like the hold of a
      ship) which holds the forms, templates, or 'dies' >
      (a metalworking term) which pattern reality
      itself.> This would necessarily mean that the
      diehold is 'outside of reality', > and that it
      'transmits the information of existence' which
      organizes > (gives rise to) 'all of what is'.

      I must say up front that I am *not* a
      techno-engineering babe. I am of the kinesthetic,
      mystic experience, visonary sub species. I leave
      the explaining how it works to the techo mages.

      When I first 'woke up' about ten years ago, I began
      to have a series of 'downloading' or 'chunking'
      experiences that still happen to this day. I would
      be 'in state' and feel, hear info being downloaded
      into me at an almost instantaneous rate. ( I have
      found this is a common experience among some of my
      awake female friends.) I wouldn't hear the info per
      se but I could hear the sound as the object volume
      size was chunked into me. Later, I would begin to
      have epiphanies which I think were experiences of
      understanding and bringing to surface awareness
      this info.

      One day about 5 or 6 years ago, I was sitting on my
      couch staring out the picture window, daydreaming.
      (one of my favorite activities) Out of the blue, as
      these things are apt to happen, I had an epiphany.
      This epiphany was this: I am an organizing field of
      consciousness and also the Universal Field of
      Consciousness. I am It and part of it. As a
      creatrix I call together a template with which to
      'extrude' universal 'stuff' or energy. This causes
      the process of manifestion from immaterial to
      material. The successful manifestation of what I
      want to create depends on my clarity of intent and
      the condition of the 'boundary' between I and i.
      From the I standpoint looking towards i there is no
      boundary. From the i standpoint looking towards I,
      the boundary lately is looking like a leaky
      permeable membrane. ( good news for me)

      We can also look at this as creating patterns of
      the future but I am reserving the right as an I
      outside of reality to change the patterns that do
      not serve me. I may be just stroking the little i
      here...but, I think I am in the ball park with
      you...I am just looking at the microscopic view
      rather than the macroscopic.


      SHANKAR (from the I Am list)

      Translation of Lines 1 and 2 of 'Five Precious Gems
      (in praise) of the Feet of Sri Ramana'

      A new-born child functions with its memory. Of the
      tendencies inherited from the past births. This is
      so upto its 7th year, usually. Then, its reason
      becomes functional. Upto, its 14th year, usually.
      During these 14 years, its conscious mind gets
      formed. From the group-mind of the society into
      which the child is born.

      From its parents, first. From its relatives, next.
      Later, from its friends and its associates. Much
      later, even from the radio and television sets.
      This conscious mind gets built upon the foundation
      of subconscious mind. Sideways as a projection from
      it. Or, as an external accretion upon it.

      From 14th year onwards, the Will gets formed,
      usually. From now on, the boy or girl can use the
      affirmation. Spiritual affirmations. In its
      conscious mind. This affirmation will now work in
      the reverse direction. On the subconscious mind. If
      done, before sleep. Then, transport the
      consciousness straight upwards into the
      superconscious. After sleep. Instead of getting
      locked down in the subconscious. As it happens
      normally, when one sleeps without using affirmation
      or other types of spiritual practices like chanting
      the Names of God, etc. Then, from there, will work
      on the impressions in the subconscious. Unawares.
      Then, create dreams. Just before waking up. In
      those dreams, the subconscious impressions will get

      Now, we proceed to the translation of the main text
      'Sri Ramana Padha Pancharathnam'. By Sri Siva
      Prakasam Pillai.

      Long Live the Feet of the True One (Sri Ramana) !,
      who totally cast aside (the non-self of ego and its
      offshoot of mind and the world), having perceived
      the Truth (of the Self). (Line 1)

      Long Live! the Feet of the Existent One (Sri
      Ramana) !, who imparts 'as it (the way) abides',
      the way of 'escaping from bondage (of
      body-consciousness) and living (as the Self)'.
      (Line 2)



      Dear Friends, Something mysterious has happened! I
      am no longer able to read any letters. It seems
      that the internet wave that descended on me has
      crested and now has passed. It kind of reminds me
      of what happened a couple of years ago when I found
      myself joyfully giving away nearly all of my
      previously-cherished spiritual books, tapes, music,
      etc. Now I am on "no mail" and have no idea for how
      long. All I know is that it feels really right and
      there is an excited tickle in my chest about what's
      coming next, and even about the space there if
      nothing comes next! To those with whom I have met
      in the heart (either knowingly or not) I would be
      so happy to nourish a friendship via private
      e-mails, messages, or even a chatroom. Here is my
      address: kheyala@... It should be no
      surprise to you :) that you all have my love,
      TOTALLY, and that I wish everyone sweet rest in the
      ordinary, as well as the extraordinary, revelation
      of This that is Here, that we Are, this
      moment.....and this one.....and this one...


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