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10/8/01 Monday

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  • Gloria Lee
    ********************** Dan Berkow (now going by db) ... The resolution can t be waking up from the dream, because that implies a someone who exists apart from
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 9, 2001
      Dan Berkow  (now going by db)
      > ..............aint no speculation about it. Unless
      > that split
      > resolved, anything that happens is just changes
      > within the
      > Resolving that split is waking up from the dream.

      The resolution can't be waking up from
        the dream, because that implies
        a someone who exists apart from the dream,
        to be in a state other than dream.

      Any state, including waking up, is "dream"
        in the sense of "a way of being aware" ...

      The dream and the dreamer are the same "stuff"
        the unsplit reality that is neither mind,
        nor body, nor something else other than

      So, waking up being another version of "dream",
        there is only *this* -- right now ...

      *This* is all there is, ever was, ever will be.

      As a dream, it is dreaming itself.
      As not-a-dream, it is not giving itself form.
      Form or formless:  *this* ...

      -- Dan

      Heres a bit from the Trekcho teaching for discussion:

      "In Dzogchen, we do not resort to separate remedies for separate mental afflicitions, because the only issue here is the presence or absence of recognition. And if there is recognition, then the mental affictions are seen as being the expression of the nature, and therefore do not themselves pose a problem. Hence this is called the "application of one remedy which liberates everything".

      When we are distracted from the state of the recognition of innate wisdom, then we will not recognize thoughts as being the uprising of innate wisdom, we will not see them as such because we are no longer recognizing the innate wisdom.

      Therefore when we are distracted from this recognition, when we become lost in ordinary delusion, beweilderment or confusion, thoughts become "indendendent".  "Independent" here means "unrecognized'. At that point it appears to us as though thoughts have solidity, have an independent existence. And once you are without this recognition of thoughts as being merely the uprising of the innate wisdom, then thoughts bind us to samsara and actually become the cause of suffering.

      Thus, in the absence of recognition, our mind and Dharma have temporaily separated and we are no longer keeping company with innate wisdom.  At this point, we are really no different from anyone else.  If we fall from recognition back into ordinary confusion, then we accumulate karma just like everyone else. ***At all times and in all circumstances,*** a practitioner of Dzogchen must never depart from this natural settling into recognition that we refer to as non-meditation".  


      Re: Why Nirguna Has Already Lost the War
      > There is only nirguna but it is real enough
      > we are in it and
      > practise

      Hey, Tony --

      Sure ...
      Yet who could possibly appear
        within Nirguna as a being
        with qualities, for whom it is
        real enough while in it?

      Do you see what I'm saying here?

      If, for you, Nirguna is what is,
        from whence could come a being
        with qualities?

      If there can be, for you, a being
        with qualities for whom it (separation) is
        real while in it, then, for you,
        there is no Nirguna-reality, it's
        only an idea, another idea occurring
        within what you're calling "diversion"
        and I would call "the sense of separation
        as real" ...

      If it's not just an idea to be used
        to make a discussion interesting, then
        for you, it (Nirguna) is real (in the
        sense of being all), and by being real
        for you, it's the only reality there
        is, or ever could be... So, for you,
        there is no other, and no qualities to
        you or for you or for others apart from
        you, in groups, or as individuals.



      The Vndist Sadhana of Dodge'em
      Glo & Friends,

      Glo writes of Tony: "This dodge'em routine is getting old."

      GETTING OLD???  I persist in believing, Glo, that you're the most
      patient and well balanced contributor to this satsangh, nonpareil.
      For all the rest of us Tony's "dodge'em routine" is antidiluvian Maya
      itself. When Nirguna decided to flash forth("Sphuratta")in her/his
      full Saguna Drag, at that exact timeless Me-ment Tony began unreeling
      his primordial Nirguna argument, beginning the otherwise
      beginningless proof that the Nirguna is the Saguna, etc...

      Maya to some. Tony to us.

      It's even been revealed to me in formless meditation that just as the
      Witness position can be taken vis-a-vis Maya in order to re-discover
      the original nondual reality, one can take the Witness position in
      regards to Tony's endless Nirguna argument. Holding to a position of
      noninvolvment one attempts to bring oneself back to the original Self
      position of Non-Annoyance. If and When this is finally achieved, one
      finds that one was never in fact born, and everything including the
      self is but an illusion and never existed (and was never Annoyed). Of
      course, this sadhana, (of achieving the Self through Non Annoyance
      with Tony's Nirguna Natterings) has so far failed to achieve
      fulfillment in anyone's individual practice, and we are continually
      tempted, as Glo shows us once again, to fall back into the position
      of relative or Saguna Annoyance, occasionally even going so far as to
      be mindlessly sucked back into the illusion of an answer, quip, or
      retort in order to relieve the endless samsaric pressure of Vndist
      Nirguna Dodge'em.
      In actual fact, this is a sadhana that all of us on this list are
      performing in each moment, but only those who have realized the Self
      know it, and those who know, not surprisingly, don't say.

      Until then, we practice the no-mind of Non-Annoyance in calm abidance
      until the Dodge'em of Saguna reveals itself as ever present No-
      Dodge'em of Nirguna.

      yours in the bonds,


      > > > (See attached file. If you are unable to receive
      > > > see the picture in the 'Files' section of the NDS
      webpage on
      > > Yahoo!.)
      > >
      > > A striking
      impression.  Most notable for the fact that it is empty.

      Everything is empty, John.

      On the other hand, the crew of moderators is actually in place. Why cannot they be seen?

      > > As someone who is passingly
      conversant with Quality Assurance I might
      > > suggest staggering the
      'hookah breaks' to create a more professional
      > > impression.  [No
      need to directly face the camera].

      I leave the hookah to the caterpiller, may he progress to butterfly, or moth, as the larval case may be.

      > > Is this file footage of TMI?  Having hailed from PA I couldn't

      No, it is actually the real/secret NDS moderation control center, ready in fact to switch from only NDS works, to actual
      world-domination/control/salvation type of work. Any day now...

      > > Warm regards,
      > > John

      Jerry, you wrote:
      It is highly irregular that NDS Moderation Headquarters is shown to the
      public. As opposed to just regular irregular. Regular irregular is okay. I
      > have lots of underwear that is regular irregular. I've tried wearing
      > highly irregular underwear but I don't have three legs and two

      Any underwear, or even no underwear, is OK. What is not OK is underaware; please avoid that.

      >In any case, we now need new
      headquarters. And do you think this time we get a
      > headquarters that
      doesn't share with the Buffy The Vampire Role Playing list?

      Well, it is harmless to show the HQ console area, but the secret location has not been revealed. But even if it were,
      patented NDS multiPhasic Sematic Shielding would protect it from any sort of attack, be it from disgruntled postal
      workers, or hostile space-aliens, or even an attack by rabid HotMail admin staffers.

      And then there is the secret NDS High Earth-Orbit NonDual Observation Satellite. Our super-secret UltraStealth
      Cloaking Device makes it invisible to all detection instruments. It is able to determine topicality from a range of over
      200km, and selectively delete _trolls_ using advanced PacketWhacker technology, leaving the surrounding area on
      the hard disk drive untouched.

      Glad you asked!

      ==Gene Poole==

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