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NDS highlights from Thursday, Sept 19

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  • Melody
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Judi: I speak on behalf and for those who are suffering for God. Xan: Then you speak for me. The more this
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 20, 1999
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      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Judi:
      I speak on behalf and for those who are suffering for God.

      Xan:

      Then you speak for me.

      The more this ecstatic
      beauty of being is revealed
      the more passionate
      becomes my longing
      for total absorption.

      la la la
      How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm,
      now that they've seen this Heart?

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Tomas:

      fear is a movement of energy/meaning going outward from the center

      like a solar flare rising up from the sun

      or

      like the legs of an octopus reach outward in all directions

      the duration of time it remains "out there"- meaning, remains giving
      meaning to "out there" it is also giving meaning to a seperate I "in
      here" and the gap in between

      but you see, it all contructed by the movments of meaning/energy

      as the meaning/energy retracts, so does seperation (out there, in here
      and the gap)

      that retraction can be called fear accepting itself (letting itself off
      the hook) and snapping back effortlessly to the source center of meaning
      itself

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Tomas:

      I had read my own post on U.G. from years ago and I didnt realize it
      until later on. I thought it came from someone else and you know what- I
      was reacting to it and it brought up a sense of doubt and fear and
      problem in me- then something struck me about this writer who wrote
      that- I can vouch for him when I say "he has never really known anything
      but fear"

      So I am showing him up- I am outing him from meaning anything of any
      consequence- I am blasting him. He doesnt mean anything- he is just
      reacting. The poor guy was just trying to grapple with not knowing what
      the hell anything is- he suffered a lot-

      I suffered a lot, I suffer, I'm suffering meaning, seeking, looking,
      holding resisting, doubt, confusion, insecurity, the thought of pain, of
      being destroyed and there being nothing nothing left

      I fear U.G.
      I fear not understanding or not understanding correctly
      I fear the awefull consequences of not understanding correctly
      I fear the awefull consequences of understanding correctly

      I fear

      I dont want to cover it up and pretend any different, I dont want to be
      dishonest about it and pretend there are no reactions when there are

      Many different forms of fear/insecurity have been coming up of late-

      like an army:

      -I'm out of work and I have the nerve to try and create some kind of
      self-investigation/honesty groups and self-investigation Internet Tours
      (I'm planning on talking to some Libraries about it)

      - I'm facing worries of my own dishonest posturing (setting myself up as
      somebody above others)
      - I'm facing my old insecurties about how long Katie will put up with my
      no-income status and that it will seem I'm using her,
      - The fear of my own laziness
      -The fear of my own unworthiness, my own desirousness, lustfullness,
      selfishness, my carelessness, my meanness, my unkindness, my
      thoughtlessness
      - The wondering if I havent made a mistake (hearing various family
      voices saying: are you nuts? you where making easy money and now what?)
      - my insecurities about my limited compitence, or confidence, in
      anything "practical"
      - my fear of being a compelete failure at whatever I try to do, of
      making a fool of myself or misleading others or myself
      - my fear of being stuck in a meaningless job (or one that I feel
      inadequate for)
      - my fear of relating to others in a meaningless, dishonest, unhelping
      way
      - my fear of being a failure at honesty, a failure at being "realized"
      or "awake" or being true to whatever I may have seen or understood

      - my fear of not being as honest as others- my fear of never being as
      honest, as true, as good, as others- As honest as U.G. or any other

      - my fear that this feeling, this comparison, this yoke, this doubt will
      never go away

      - my fear of my own lack of consistency- my wavering, my replay of
      issues
      - my fear of being completely exposed
      - my fear of being ridiculed, attacked physically or othwerwise, ripped
      apart, tortured in some hell or one kind or another
      - my fear of those in whom I feel tremendous authority- the fear of
      being judged and condemned by them
      - my fear of my total and complete inadequacy
      - my fear loosing what I love the most, those I love the most- my fear
      of jepordizing them, my fear of exposing them to danger, to destruction,
      to pain

      - my fear of my own thinking and feeling (which is filled by all this)
      - my fear that every movement I am making (thinking, feeling, decisions,
      reactions) is headed in the wrong direction- is taking me further and
      further into trouble, into danger, into destruction (for me and/or
      others I care about)

      - my fear that whatever activity I am participating in is really just
      another way I am cleverly hiding from myself

      - my fear that the choices I have made have been completely wrong and
      taken me in the wrong direction

      - my fear that there was a more honest road that I didnt take

      - my fear that my caring for others is completely false and that I dont
      really care for them at all

      - my fear that I could have a didnt do better for others I care about

      - my fear that those things that I think have helped me or are helping
      me are actually, at best, well intentioned deceptions

      - my fear that those teachers, teachings, nice memories, friends,
      concepts, phrases, contemplations, reflections, questions that have
      helped clarify things in the past are, at best, well intentioned
      deceptions

      - my fear is that letting them go will mean my doom

      - my fear that without them, I will fall into unending panic and
      anxiety, into eternal doubt, torment, pain, confusion, insanity

      - my fear is that I dont have the courage to bear it- it dont have what
      it takes- what some other person must have had (their special birth,
      their special biology, their special being...their specialness)

      also I must confess that I dont know for sure that any of the above are
      true or valid or what they really mean

      I dont know if there really is anything I must or need to fear, that I
      must or should resist

      I just dont know



      I'm thankfull for the opportunity to express this,

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Xan:

      The conversation about meaning reminded me of the beginning lessons of The
      Course In Miracles:

      Nothing I see means anything.
      I have given everything I see all the meaning it has for me.
      I do not understand anything I see.
      These thoughts do not mean anything.
      I am never upset for the reason I think.
      I am upset because I see something that is not there.
      I see only the past.
      My mind is preoccupied with past thoughts.
      I see nothing as it is now.
      My thoughts do not mean anything.
      My meaningless thoughts are showing me
      a meaningless world.
      A meaningless world engenders fear.
      God did not create a meaningless world.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      aleks:

      here's some blasphemy (from a writer--)
      disclaimer: i do not endorse book burning. there are plenty of places--
      prisons, hospitals, schools, &tc. which are happy to receive collections!


      a book is such a comfort
      words of prophets saints and sages
      each page appears immortal
      passed on through the ages.

      enticing, yes, it seems to be
      i scoured each page anew
      i went in search of freedom
      found someone to tell me what to do.

      the books are burning in my yard
      a glow against the night
      i'd rather stumble in the dark
      than walk in other's light.

      so now i prop projectors
      with those volumes sweet and fine,
      and open up a heart i found
      and read the self divine.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      KKT offered re: UG Krishnamurti...


      Indeed, UG's "calamity" was related
      to JK. In "The Mystique of Enlightenment"
      we read:

      Then (July 1967) there arrived another phase. Krishnamurti was again
      there in Saanen giving talks. My friends dragged me there and said
      "Now at least it is a free business. Why don't you come and listen?"
      I said "All right, I'll come and listen." When I Iistened to him, something
      funny happened to me -- a peculiar kind of feeling that he was
      describing my state and not his state. Why did I want to know his state?
      He was describing something, some movements, some awareness,
      some silence -- "In that silence there is no mind; there is action" -- all
      kinds of things. So, "I am in that state. What the hell have I been
      doing these thirty or forty years, listening to all these people and
      struggling, wanting to understand his state or the state of somebody
      else, Buddha or Jesus? I am in that state. Now I am in that state."
      So, then I walked out of the tent and never looked back.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Xan:

      Illusions

      If they didn't seem real
      they would not be illusions

      Identities
      If they did not seem permanent
      they would not be real

      Fears
      If they did not capture our attention
      they would not be frightening

      Illusions in our minds
      Seem real
      permanent
      and capture our attention.

      Illusions

      If you'll look closer
      and closer
      and closer
      you'll see.

      It's solitary work
      Private
      Intimate

      You'll see
      Just in time for
      Dis-appearance.

      Then you'll
      really
      see.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      An actual story about romance and sex from the Ramana Maharshi
      newsletter........Harsha

      An inmate of the Ashrama who had been serving Bhagavan Ramana for many years
      started visiting a certain woman in the town. Her relatives came to know of
      it and decided to catch and kill the man. One night they caught him at her
      house, bound him hand and foot and locked him up in a room, postponing the
      cutting of his throat until they had found a safe way of disposing of the
      body. Our man managed to escape and came running to the Ashrama, pursued by
      his enemies. When he entered the gate they gave up the chase. He entered the
      Hall trembling and fell on the ground shouting: "Save me, save me.''
      Bhagavan ordered the doors to be shut and said: "Don't fear, tell me what
      happened." After having been told everything, he looked at the culprit with
      understanding and pity and said reassuringly: "Don't fear any more. Go and
      sleep." From the next day the man was at his work and Bhagavan would not
      mention the matter at all. Everybody in the town came to know what happened.
      The Ashrama people requested Bhagavan to send the man away, for his presence
      would tarnish the good name of the Ashrama. Bhagavan called the man and told
      him in front of everybody: "You have done some wrong, but you were too
      foolish to keep it secret. Others do worse things, but they take care not to
      be caught. Now, the people who were not caught want you to leave the Ashrama
      because you were caught. They will make your life miserable. You had better
      stay outside for some time, until things settle down." The man stayed with
      some devotees outside the Ashrama and came back after a few months.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Gene had written:

      I am not talking about 'noticing' what we experience, I am talking about
      'noting' what we experience. Think of the times that you have noticed that
      one who is taking notes during a lecture will request that the speaker
      repeat phrases or 'slow down'. You may have noticed that one who does that,
      does not 'get the lesson', but instead assumes that a later review of the
      taken notes, will allow the lesson to be gotten. Or imagine taking notes at
      the opera, instead of 'simply' relaxing into the musical massage.


      Becky responds:

      This reminded me of a story I heard as told by John Cage in a performance I
      saw on film (along with a Cunningham dance)_-

      There was a woman attending a J. Krishnamurti lecture and she was taking
      notes. K says that if one is taking notes, what the speaker has to say
      cannot be heard. The woman continues to take notes. The man sitting next
      to the woman says to her, "did you hear what he said? You can't hear him if
      you are taking notes". She replies, "yes, I know. I've got that in my notes!"

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Becky:
      > All the talk re UG overwhelmed me at first. I think what is becoming
      > clear is that I became attached to JK's work and didn't even really
      > know it. Perhaps my reaction to UG helped to make that clear to me.

      Bruce:
      It seems to have. It's
      quite a wake-up call to
      realize that you've been
      staring at the finger
      rather than noticing that
      to which it points.

      Becky:
      > Yeah, he really makes me angry -- what do you mean it's all luck and
      > there nothing there anyway ?

      Bruce:
      Jeez, Becky, don't start
      taking *his* word for it,
      that's like giving up
      staring at one finger only
      to immediately start staring
      at the finger that pointed
      out you were staring at a
      finger! Don't assume
      "nothing there" is somehow a
      negative outcome, find out
      for yourself what happens!

      Becky:
      > As difficult as it is to relinquish my
      > committment to these beliefs, my reaction is a good indicator that
      > he's touched me in an important way.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Jan:
      Strictly speaking, if one can feel being alone, one still
      isn't. For the ego, it is frightening to lose all reference.
      The mao of worldly life is a kind of superstructure based on
      automatic opinion where the "glue", binding all phenomena and
      experiences together in a seemingly logical, orderly
      structure, is this automatic opinion, based on judgment (like,
      dislike etc.) When the glue dissolves, the approaching
      collapse of the structure induces fear; this is only natural.
      One way or another, the jump into "nothingness without
      reference "will have to be taken.

      >Becky:
      >I have been having the feeling for awhile now to get rid of
      all of my books on this stuff. I want to give them away to
      someone who could use them. I don't even want to finish the UG
      book I just got. What always stops me is fear -- "what if I
      get confused and need to refer to the book"? (O panic)!
      >

      Jan:
      It is almost unavoidable that breaking up the old structures
      will temporarily lead to some kind of crisis. Clinging to
      something (books, teachers, friends) may delay, but cannot
      prevent this. It is the reason, why yogic practice is built up
      like a pyramid; the basis has to be strong. Books cannot help
      in any way; for someone who has lost fear of death, the fear
      will be just a curiosity, but for someone who still holds
      values, the fear will depend on those values. When in the
      process of losing reference, the books will be included too so
      recirculation is an excellent idea. Why not practice a little
      pranayama when panic threatens? The relationship between
      emotional state and breathing works both ways.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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