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  • Gloria Lee
    ******************* MarkO: Have Courage, help is in the way NDS Moderator ... I know it is frightening, but please understand... Jerry seems to be suffering
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 22, 2001
      MarkO: Have Courage, help is in the way

      NDS Moderator

      Mark, you painfully penned:

      "Mark W. Otter
      >Subject:  GENE!!!!! ARE YOU TOLERATING
      >Hey Gene,
      >Jerry Katz is threatening us!!!
      I say kick him off.
      >Love, Mark
      > >  i can tell you what these messages really mean,
      > > 
      but then I'd have to kill you.

      I know it is frightening, but please understand... Jerry seems to be
      suffering from 'list-shock', not an uncommon malady of list-ownership
      and the tribulations of long duty as list moderator.

      Yes, friends, our beloved founder, Sri Jerry Katz, is letting it all
      hang out. And 'about time', I say.

      He and Bobo are now harmless beachcombers, wending their way through
      interesting piles of sand-flea infested kelp, lips protected from
      windburn by the frequent application of exotic Tibetian balms and
      healing salves.

      Jerry is letting his own internal tides flow as they will, after many
      years of stringent self-control and uncompromising spiritual
      practice. And we will all be the better for his newly relaxed
      ventures into the vast unknown, for as he illuminates his
      surroundings with the ineffable light of his Divine Being, that same
      light reflects upon us, every one.

      And as the moon waxes full, if you listen in the silence of deepest
      midnight, you may hear the plaintive howls of Bobo, echoing
      wordlessly through the infinite canyons of non-attachment, an
      enigmatic transmission of the perplexity, and complexity, of the
      essence of bliss itself.

      Fortunately, recent scientific research, based on undiscovered
      evidence, has produced a new class of pharmaceutical drugs, designed
      with the mind of the list-moderator in mind. Unfortunately, these
      wonder-drugs work only to PREVENT moderator burn-out, not to cure
      existing 'cases'.

      We are soliciting donations of cash, to fund further and deeper
      research into PMSS (Post-Moderator Stress Syndrome). Some day, with
      proper funding, a cure may be found. But until then, please send your
      fond and sincere wishes, and cash, to Jerry and Bobo, wherever they
      may be.


      ==Gene Poole==

      Moderator, NDS

      Gene, John & Friends,

      I think it was Oscar Wilde who said,"Be moderate in all things, and
      particularly, be moderate in moderation".

      That Oscar thought of everything. Who knew that he would be so

      yours in the bonds,


      Dear Gene & Eric,

      When I was talking about 'abuse' as a teaching tool I had in mind the
      Zen masters of old who would ask a question like 'What is the Way?'
      and say '30 blows if you answer, 30 blows if you don't'! At other
      times when the student was ready the master might physically kick
      them over (kicking over their carefully thought out world view in the
      process). That the student might get up and kick the master over in
      return was generally viewed as a good sign that the student had
      understood. Thereonin they were best friends if self deprecatingly so
      and transmission had happened.

      Of course nowadays everything is institutionalised and apparently in
      a Japanese Zen monastery a tap with a stick is standard practise if
      the poor zazen practiser is getting sleepy. Even worse the student
      can even ask for wake up tap. Such is the nature of organised

      So nothing new under the sun and I dare say the odd student got
      kicked over who wasn't ready (and that never got recorded in the
      books!). Of course once the 'shock value' ceases to exist (and I
      don't personally subscribe to that kind of thing ayway by the way)
      there would be no point in flogging a dead horse.

      I rather think laughter is one of the most subversive things around
      and a lot more fun.


      I can't help you here. Not that you asked "me"! I do not try to "love


      Nina, a little-known concept is that if you 'want it all', you have
      to be able to 'accept it all'.

      How is it possible to 'have it all' while having only part of it (the
      'good' part).

      Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky... oops ...Nisargadatta
      Punishment is but legalized crime. In a society built on prevention, rather
      than retaliation, there would be very little crime. The few exceptions will
      be treated medically, as an unsound mind and body. (512)
      Pain and pleasure, good and bad, right and wrong: these are relative terms
      and must not be taken absolutely. They are limited and temporary. (264)
      There is no evil, there is no suffering; the joy of living is paramount.
      Look, how everything clings to life, how dear the existence is. (384)
      There is no good and no evil. In every concrete situation, there is only
      the necessary and the unnecessary. The needful is right, the needless is
      wrong. In my world, even what you call evil is the servant of the good and
      therefore necessary. It is like boils and fever that clear the body of
      impurities. Disease is painful, even dangerous, but if dealt with rightly,
      it heals. In some cases death is the best cure. (283-4)

      With Love,
      Cyber Dervish

      poems by Michael Read

      life is not fair
      cares not for your belief system
      holds nothing sacred
      will sucker punch the mighty
      elevate the lowly
      permeates everything
      cannot be held back
      will not go forward
      struggles until the bitter end
      gives up easily
      defies description
      is obvious
      plays as fanatsy
      cries as reality
      is given freely
      and as freely - taken away

      you are the universe incarnate
      live as you will

      peace - storm - eternity - Michael
      if you do not see god
      who is looking?


      Self-realization is thought to be possible only by surrendering all effort to achieve it. Some think that a practice is required to prepare the body-mind before this effortless surrendering might take place. Both views seem valid, depending on the conditioning of the individual body-mind.

      My approach has been to assess the conditioning of my body-mind through self-inquiry as to what is blocking the ability to surrender all effort. Of course that would seem to put me in the bind of making an effort to be effortless. But is that really true?

      Suppose I was to discover that what was blocking and motivating my effort to be effortless was a great deal of stress that was heretofore unnoticed.

      Would the conscious relaxation of that stress be considered an effort?

      Greg Goode
      Hi Ed,

      Below you make a good point about stress, I have a URL for you on that....

      The effort/no effort distinction depends on your outlook. What seems like effort now will be seen after the realization you seek as effortlessness. Why? Because wanting realization, however you understand it, IS effort!

      It is sort of like the descriptive/prescriptive distinction. At first, the pronouncements and teachings seem prescriptive, that there is much to do. Later, after the seeking has stopped, it is seen that what was prescribed was actually nothing more than a DEscription.

      Effort/no effort are like this. After the realization that was sought, it is seen that there was no effort at all. So "effortlessness" becomes kind of a description.

      If the question arises as to which side of the diestinction is true, then effort will be applied, and it will continue, till it doesn't. If there is a feeling of wanting to do something, then you can't make this feeling go away just by hearing and thinking about a teaching on non-effort. What actually happens is that effort is made, along a finer and finer line towards the goal. One will follow this ever-more refined line till it reaches its conclusion. What makes the line finer and finer is the discovery that more and more just doesn't work, so the area sought will thin out over time. The conclusion partially involves the insight that hits you intellectually, emotionally and physically that there CAN'T be effort at all, and that it's all right here, right now, and always was.

      You mention stress. This is a good point. If there are subtle levels of stress going on, then one can't imagine how things would be without them. If stress leaves, clarity and good feelings arise that one never know possible before. There are some therapeutic techniques that two of my friends took that helped immensely. They have been studying advaita and later, practicing Buddhism for decades. And when they did this technique, lots of stress left the body and mind. One of the techniques I know about is called EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing). (www.emdr.com) It is like guided questioning and inquiry while also getting the body involved. It is said to be powerfully effective for survivors of traumas, abuse, war, crime, as well as other things such as depression, self-esteem issues, etc.

      This is a very insightful and important question you ask!

      Pieter S. Samara
      Dear Ed,

      Ramana Maharshi has said that until realization comes effort is required,
      once realized you cannot make effort even if you tried.

      Effort is like using a stick to stir a fire, once the fire is stirred, you
      toss the stick in with the fire.

      Yoga and self-enquiry are using Maya like a stick to churn the fire in the
      nerves, which results in a purification, balancing and sudden isolation of
      the seer, the subject "I"

      We feel the sensation of "I" along with the sensations of the body and
      images, impressions and thoughts in the mind and assume that there is an
      identity between the 2.  Enquiry (and yoga practiced for spiritual purposes)
      is simply meant to "isolate the seer."  Once the seer is isolated, there is
      a pulling sensation in the Hrdayam, like Steve Hawkins Singularity of a
      Black Hole, which sucks in the "I" dissolving the attention to the body
      sensations and mind and in the process outshining everything.

      In the Middle Ages, the stars were often described as being pinpricks in a
      shroud that covered the world, behind which was the infinite light and glory
      of God.  This analogy is not far from the Truth, but with the difference
      that the pinprick is the Spiritual Heart, the Hrdayam, which is the
      all-pervasive substratum of everything seen and unseen (conscious,
      subconscious, unconscious, superconscious).

      Stilling the mind is an essential in the beginning.  Once the sense of "I"
      is isolated, which is to say that you have recollected your True Self, you
      abide as That and the activities of the body/mind continue automatically,
      without attention, without a sense of being the doer.  The pulling sensation
      in the Hrdayam turns the mind inward and the "whole body is filled with

      A longing to know the Truth is also essential, but you wouldn't have posted
      the question of that wasn't there already.

      Greg Goode
      Maybe it's shorthand for no *separate* self.

      In Buddhism, no-self teachings are gauged and have many levels, and they
      pertain to the "ulitmate" nature of persons and things:

      -some Buddhist teachings do emphasize a self - the object of these
      teachings is not philosophical or insight-based, but rather to encourage
      ethical behavior. 
      -no permanent self that is separate from the body/mind (like a soul in
      Christian teachings - one can stretch this to mean no "atman" or Brahman -
      the least subtle teaching of no-self)
      -no self-sufficient, substantial entity (like owner or controller of
      -no inherently-existing self (no self that is independent from imputation
      by language or thought - the most subtle teaching on no-self)

      Both persons and other objects like tables and chairs are said to lack a
      self of this ultimate kind.  But persons and things have conventional
      selves - the self that goes to the store, writes e-mail, etc.

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