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Thursday, August 16

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  • Jerry Katz
    GARY MERRILL I know - once on the spritual path you find it everywhere, even in bars and the most unlikely places! But if people have recognized no Higher
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 17, 2001

      I know - once on the spritual path you find it
      everywhere, even in bars and the most unlikely
      places! But if people have recognized no "Higher
      Power" in themselves or in their lives yet, can
      situations such as I have described above and more
      - such as thievery and worse - be expected to
      happen? (well - duh, have i answered my own
      question here?) --valerie

      I don't see it as surprising to find that someone
      on a spiritual path is pursuing self interest.
      Isn't being on a 'spiritual path' just self interet
      cloaked over, concealed. Giving rise to the
      conceipt of spiritual pride (before a fall).

      The question is 'is it possible not to be on any
      path?' and what would that mean, and also is it
      possible to end all seeking or for seeking to drop
      away? Because we are our paths.

      The question of friendship is an interesting one
      and I suppose the honest answer would be that we
      often have friends because we 'like' them, we are
      like them and we gain mutual gratification and
      assurance. Until we don't anyway, then maybe a
      divorce :-) Perhaps a better approach to
      'friendship' would be 'those that communicate or
      commune or share in some way'. Aloneness comes into
      this as well I think, whether there's a needful
      relationship or not. (I'm not sure I would want to
      join any club which would have me as a member :-))


      Hi Valerie,

      I wonder if it is possible to be on a spiritual
      path oneself and not be tested in some way. It
      sounds like an opportunity has arisen to see into
      the motives of others, recognize something of one's
      self in their behavior (it's all just a mirror),
      forgive both the "others" and the "self", bring
      unconditional love into the scene, and realize the
      underlying unity. If you can see it in this way,
      perhaps you will come to see all of it this way.
      (and if you succeed at this, perhaps you can help
      me to...)

      well, just a thought from this side of the
      bleachers. I wish you well with your journey.


      Hi Valerie,

      I think questions regarding how to live with others
      are a deep, lifelong "koan". I try not to "get the
      answers" to these questions, because those
      "answers" will inevitably be, ultimately,
      unsatisfactory. You can always get someone to
      val-idate :) whatever you need validated at a
      particular time, and there is nothing "wrong" with
      that. Is there an answer you were hoping to hear
      from someone on this list? Well, whatever it is,
      it's available to you. Trust yourself. You are free
      to cut yourself off from particular people, to
      judge them, to get out of their way when they start
      swinging their ax your way, to tell them how you
      feel. You are free to have one set of expectations
      for those who call themselves "spiritual" and one
      for those who do not, to decide that people who
      make such distinctions are "hoity-toity", etc. You
      are also free to change your mind. Life is flux.
      Or, it "is". I prefer to allow the questions
      themselves to deepen, than to fix on the "answers".
      You say you were hurt. I have two responses. I'm
      sorry... and, wonderful! Disappointment creates
      abundant opportunity to let go of everything
      (illusion, hope, expectation) that keeps us from
      realizing what's here, now.


      I'm smack in the middle of a not-so friendly
      maelstrom with a colleague I consider(ed?) a good
      friend. It began with a cinnamon roll referred to
      as white trashy. It was fed with miscommunication
      and then no communication (I was given the silent
      treatment for two weeks... totally unacceptable
      when you're working on projects with someone). It
      gained allies in my work stress and health
      difficulties. This morning, what seemed to be the
      beginning of resolution, something that began with
      apologies both ways, quickly descended into the
      hell of manipulative demands and passive-aggressive
      non- resolving, plus a hefty dose of boiling blood.
      There was a loud blow up that could be heard by
      all, including the client my boss was meeting with.
      I left the office.

      So, after spending the past few hours on top of a
      parking garage alternating weeping with sitting
      dumbstruck, thinking I would be able to pull myself
      together, I finally gave up on going back to work.
      I spent some time wandering aimlessly around town
      instead. I'll probably let the dogs out soon, lock
      up the flat, and go back to wandering.

      (I did, however, call to let my boss know that I
      would be in for my 4pm job review! Oh, yes, I have
      been on my best possible behavior this morning!)

      Yes, Su... good practice for letting go of
      everything. Hard to chew it right now, though.


      Valerie wrote [[.. i found myself with a couple of
      people I thought were "friends" .. you wouldn't
      expect it of spiritual aspirants or people who were
      working on themselves as much.]] ** How long have
      you known these folk? Perhaps they have always been
      they way the are now, as you see them. Perhaps you
      are seeing them through 'new' eyes, with enhanced

      [[.. I was quite shocked and hurt to be treated
      this way.]] ** It is important to understand
      'what', inside ourselves, that causes these
      feelings. Can you recall another time where you
      felt this way? What is so 'shocking' & 'hurt'ful
      about their actions? Discrimination and discernment
      are valuable tools.

      [[If people are not even on the spiritual path yet,
      or maybe just pay it lip service, should it pose a
      problem to friendship?]] ** This depends solely on
      you Valerie. Each of us must, with each breath,
      define our relationships. To ourselves, our
      co-workers, our family, our environment, etc.

      [[.. if people have recognized no "Higher Power" in
      themselves or in their lives yet, can situations
      [snip] be expected to happen?]] ** Certainly.
      Without a personal code of morals & ethics the
      individual(s) in question will live their life
      based on personal perception of 'right' &/or
      'wrong'. Just as those of us who have a particular
      philosophy do; we seek to live within the
      perimeters of our path, as well as determine what
      our chosen credos mean once filtered through our
      personal experience.

      Su advised [[You are free to cut yourself off
      [snip] You are free to have one set of expectations
      for those who call themselves "spiritual" and one
      for those who do not [snip] You are also free to
      change your mind.]] ** Precisely!

      [[Disappointment creates abundant opportunity to
      let go of everything ..]] ** I agree completely!

      Om Santi ... Yogini Sakti



      Hi everyone, This is my first posting so please be
      kind; I'm old and have a very fragile ego. The
      recent discussions remind me of a story about
      Gurdjieff. It seems he charged exorbitant rates for
      his schools, since he felt that people would pay
      more attention if they had to pay a great deal.
      (Well that's what he said.) Anyway, in one of his
      schools there was a very disruptive person who was
      antagonizing the other participants to no end. This
      person finally decided to leave the school, which
      made everyone else very happy. When Gurdjieff found
      out, he tracked the person down at the rail station
      and actually begged him to come back. He finally
      persuaded this person by promising to refund all of
      his money. When the other participants found out,
      they were extremely upset and complained bitterly
      to Gurdjieff. His reply was that this person was
      the best possible resource for them to find out
      about themselves. End of story. I understand this
      forum has rules and I agree with them. My only
      thought was, If someone either on the forum or a
      friend is antagonizing us; aren't we supposed to
      ask who is being antagonized and why. (Excluding
      the moderator, who has to keep the rules.) Love to
      all Dick Fortier


      A good question but it has some assumptions built
      in, particularly that this forum is a mystery
      school under the direction of a Gurdjieff or Pema
      Chodron or equivalent, and that participants know
      and accept these conditions.

      I don thin so, as the "disruptive person" under
      consideration might say. Therefore we are obliged
      to consider the analogy as less than apt.

      Yes, it is more or less always a good idea
      inquiry-into-truthwise to ask who is being
      antagonised and why. But acceptance of this useful
      principle as overriding all others allows certain
      types of abusive people to indulge in abuse that
      may not always be in participants' best interests
      growth-wise. Indeed i would say that acceptance of
      *any* principle as overriding all others will lead
      to some form of abuse. The legalistic approach must
      always run into situations which fall between the
      cracks. Gödel says this is true even of scientific
      systems, so what to say of sociopolical ones? We
      are left with trusting the moderator and
      co-participants or not.

      Abusive people come in many shapes and sizes and
      MOs. They are as attracted to lists like this one
      as a pedophile is to scout troops and day-care
      centers. Freedom of speech: great moral principle.
      "Ask yourself who is being abused, not who is
      abusing you": Ramana, Wayne, Todd, all the biggies
      say so. What's it spell? License to abuse. Who
      could ask for more?

      But we have to consider others' rights to a list
      more free of abuse. If there is to be some sort of
      consensus here -- not to be confused with democracy
      -- eventually a recidivist abuser will have to
      leave. We had one on a list i moderate. The whining
      over unsubbing continues on other lists of which we
      are both members; in fact, he blessed NDS with a
      whine about the time Gene took over. It's not like
      they give up easily.

      But it's also not like this is the only place where
      they can indulge their dumping and projections.
      People who unrepentently give themselves permission
      to abuse others and cannot self-moderate should
      stick to lists where complete freedom is allowed or
      their own lists where they make the rules. They
      don't belong in a list like NDS.


      Yeah, this is a good reminder. Only, I have to put
      this story in the "Urban Legend" category. The
      version I heard was identical, except it was not
      Gurjieff. It took place in a Buddhist monastery.
      I'm pretty sure Pema Chodron tells this story in
      one of her books. Still, there is Truth there, if
      not fact.



      BEAR WITH IT, NINA!!!! Something important is
      happening, and it will work out fine. I've got two
      weeks left in my job, which blew up in my face
      something awful, but I'm calm finally (It's been
      over a year in process, and I too have sat in the
      parking lot trying to figure out what the hell to
      do while moistening my face as if I were watering
      crops in the desert... (huh?)

      seriously, God is pulling the strings here. Stick
      around to see how it works out. (ie be a witness to
      it and don't prejudge it using old standards.)


      ARKANSAS CITY (EAP) -- A Little Rock woman was
      killed yesterday after leaping through her moving
      car's sun roof during an incident best described as
      "a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eye witnesses.

      Thirteen other people were injured after a
      twenty-car pile up resulted from people trying to
      avoid hitting the woman who was apparently
      convinced that the rapture was occurring when she
      saw twelve people floating up into the air, and
      then passed a man on the side of the road who she
      claimed was Jesus.

      "She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and
      climbed right out of the sunroof and jumped off the
      roof of the car," said Everett Williams, husband of
      28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced
      dead at the scene.

      "I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I
      stopped," Williams said. She thought the rapture
      was happening and was convinced that Jesus was
      gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on to say.

      "This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've
      been on the force," said Paul Madison, first
      officer on the scene.

      Madison questioned the man who looked like Jesus
      and discovered that he was dressed up as Jesus and
      was on his way to a toga costume party when the
      tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came
      loose and released twelve blow up sex dolls filled
      with helium which floated up into the air.

      Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told
      by several of his friends that he looks like Jesus,
      pulled over and lifted his arms into the air in
      frustration, and said , "Come back here," just as
      the Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was
      sure that it was Jesus lifting people up into the
      sky as they passed by him, according to her
      husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than
      anything else.

      When asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls,
      Jenkins replied "This is all just too weird for me.
      I never expected anything like this to happen."
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