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8/5/01 New NDS Moderator

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  • Gloria Lee
    ... From: Jerry Katz To: nds Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: [NDS] New NDS Moderator Dear List Members, Gene Poole is the new moderator of NDS
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 6, 2001
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      ----- Original Message -----
      To: nds
      Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:38 PM
      Subject: [NDS] New NDS Moderator

      Dear List Members,

      Gene Poole is the new moderator of NDS List. All
      final decisions are his and he has full authority
      and powers, ranging from approving new members to
      deleting the entire list and archives, if he

      Gene was my first friend on the internet and has
      been my partner all along. He is the only one I
      know who can assure that NDS remains separate from
      the pack of similar lists. His loyalty and interest
      has been mainly, if not solely, with this list, and
      he understands its vision. He has taught very much
      to many. His voice is unique. Gene stands for a
      wide-open nonduality, in my opinion, which is what
      the list is about.

      I'm not removing myself from the internet
      nonduality scene, just stepping back quite a bit
      for no reason other than that it seems like the
      thing to do.

      Gene and I have consulted on numerous list-related
      matters over the years, especially in the early
      days, and I'm sure we'll continue to do so, but, as
      I said, final decisions are his.

      Thanks to all for the privilege of serving you as
      moderator for the last three or so years. It's been
      quite an experience! I'll continue to keep the
      website going at <http://www.nonduality.com>.


      Jerry Katz

      *Thank you so much*, Jerry, and a
      hearty "mazel tov" to Gene.  May
      your respective burthens be light!

      Much love -- Bruce

      Jerry, you are the first real person I met on the internet and you're
      still the realest. Bon voyage and happy brainwaves!


      Hi Gang,

            Well, my newest little nondual book, "The Way IT Is," can now be
      purchased from my website at www.blackdotpubs.com.    It's also available
      through barnesandnoble.com  and at Amazon.com.

            Jerry likes It and you probably will, too.   To read an in-depth
      review of "IT" that was just posted on the 3rd Millennium Gateway website
      by Dennis Trunk, please link to:  http://3rdmg.xoasis.com/hillig.html

            "The Way IT Is"   by Chuck Hillig   ISBN:  0-9649740-1-0    $11.95

                            With Blessings,

      Jerry and Friends,

      I was answering a question this morning about a book critical of Paul
      Brunton, written by the son of one of his first American disciples, and found
      myself relating the following story. It's a little known one that I
      personally witnessed and participated in, and that I think suggests an
      interesting and very American perspective on the Guru tradition, and the
      meaning of taking refuge. I doubt it could have happened in any other country
      or at any other time than the recent past. It is uniquely the product of the
      Tibetan diaspora and the spiritual "greening" of America that seemed to take
      place synchronistically.

      It's a true story. I hope you enjoy it.

      I went to school at Cornell in Ithaca,NY and used to return to a small
      upstate town near there, Trumansburg, to visit old musician-friends who had
      elected to stay up in that area. An article in one of the local newspapers
      drew my attention to a group of disciples of a man named Anthony who had gone
      to study with Brunton before he died and considered himself his major
      disciple and dharma heir. The group was called "Wisdom's Golden Rod" and was
      a sizable number of people, especially considering the outriders, of which I
      soon became one. There were at least 70-80 regular members who got together
      one or more nights a week for regular study and meditation in a little town
      on Seneca Lake called Burdett. Under Anthony's tutilege they conducted a
      cutting edge Astrology/spirituality class once a week(which wasn't my kind of
      thing), and ran the 1st, and subsequently only, systematic Plotinus Enneads
      study group I've ever encountered( which very much was my kind of thing).
      These weekly classes regularly involved 20-30 students a night throughout the
      week. Not surprisingly, the academic community was well represented. Taken as
      a group, Anthony and the Wisdom's Golden Rod participants were the 1st and
      most powerful expression of a karmic group that I've ever encountered. One
      got the impression that through countless lifetimes these "friends and
      enemies" had worked out their mutual karma until they had arrived at a
      peaceful reconciliation as the members of Anthony's advaitic mystery school.

      They wrote the Dalai Lama when they heard that he would be appearing in
      America for, I think, the 2nd time, and invited him up to visit them. They
      were  then, as now, a non-affiliated sangha who prided themselves on "taking
      the best from many traditions". They certainly weren't Buddhists, from any
      perspective, although non-dualism was their organizing overview.

      Interestingly, and I think karmically, HH accepted their invitation and came
      to visit them for 3 whole days. It was clear that he felt very close to this
      American philosophic school, and he lavished friendship and attention on all
      of them, but particularly on Anthony.  

      It was as a result of my "friend of 'Wisdom's Golden Rod' "status that I  was
      invited to participate in the 1st of two private darshans with HH, for which
      I was, and am, very grateful to Anthony and his student friends.

      A few of Antony's followers became Buddhists and formed the core of Ithaca's
      emerging Buddhist community, which now boasts a Tantric ashram/community
      center with it's own on-site Buddhist teaching monks. Currently they have
      some sort of official sanctioned symbiosis with Cornell. Ithaca also boasts
      Snow Lion Publishers, America's premiere Tibetan Buddhist publishing house.
      All of this started with that initial 3 day visit from His Holiness to
      "Wisdom's Golden Rod", a non Buddhist group which, ironically, counted Paul
      Brunton, an American Hindu who was not a Hindu, as it's spiritual authority.

      Anthony, who was an auto-didactic chain smoking  intellectual, contracted
      lung cancer, unfortunately, but probably inevitably, and had one lung
      surgically removed. While laid up at the farmhouse he shared with his wife
      next to the "Golden Rod" facilities, he secretly got in touch with the Dalai
      Lama, who by coincidence was back in America at that time visiting some of
      the Buddhist installations in Vermont and,I think, performing the 1st or,
      perhaps, 2nd Kalachakra Initiation ceremony in America. The Dalai Lama
      immediately agreed to grant Anthony and his friends a private darshan and
      Anthony, although clearly suffering, organized his troops and within a week
      delivered them to an al fresco garden darshan at a devotee's farm or estate
      in Vermont. After exchanging greetings and answering a few of the student's
      questions, the Dalai Lama and Anthony, in full view of both their parties,
      retired to a vine covered gazebo at the other end of the garden, where they
      conferred in private.

      At that time, Anthony revealed to His Holiness that he was dying and hadn't
      long to make his final arrangements. He said that his first concern was the
      welfare of his students, and he asked the Dalai Lama if he would take them
      under his wing and offer them his influence and protection. HH allowed as how
      he wasn't a practicing guru, and so could not accept them as students, but
      that he would watch over them and offer them his special attention.

      The meeting was soon over, and Anthony and his friends headed back to
      "Wisdom's Golden Rod" and Seneca Lake.

      Anthony's revelation of his final conversation with His Holiness was the
      occasion of a great emotional outpouring from his students, who hadn't even
      begun to come to grips with the possiblity of his approaching death. This
      moving catharsis was accompagnied by intellectual confusion, doubt, and in
      some cases, outspoken dismay as the group had never accepted any kind of  
      Buddhist affiliation, even an affiliation with the Dalai Lama. They were in
      equal parts honored as well as shocked, and I think, more than a little
      angry, with Anthony's unexpected gesture. At the same time, all of them were
      understandably moved by the extreme concern he had shown for their welfare. I
      think that the most enlightened among them knew, that in Anthony's concern
      for their spiritual safety, he had abandoned his pride and his hard won
      intellectual detachment and simply turned to the highest spiritual authority
      and refuge that he had could access. Also, I don't think that it's a
      coincidence that His Holiness was an expert, if little known, Tantric
      philosopher, as well as a great monastic leader and practitioner.

      After Anthony's passing their was a great debate as to how to deal
      respectfully with the Dalai Lama's kind, but to many of Anthony's students,
      threatening, offer. But that's another story.

      To honor their departed teacher, the senior membership of Wisdom's Golden Rod
      undertook to edit and publish the whole corpus of Brunton's voluminous
      journals and notes in a massive project that took them 5 or more years to
      complete. This hard bound series is called the Notebooks of Paul Brunton and
      it's published by Larson Publications in Burdett, NY.

      All this verbiage is far afield of my original simple answer to a question
      about a book critical of Paul Brunton; but I thought that it's a curious,
      wonderful and, in some circles, a controversial story about the first strides
      of  Tibetan Tantric Buddhism in America and the real meaning of "Refuge", and
      I thought you might like to hear it.

      yours in the bonds,


      Regretably, I left an important fact out of my previous story, which
      is that Anthony died only 2 days after commending his students and
      friends into the spiritual care of HH the Dalai Lama. It seemed a
      moving synchronicity.

      yours in the bonds,

      BGBBY & DAN

      (from 8/2/01)
      bybbyg & DAN on the nature of reality

      > Dear Dan
      Thank you for responding in a thoughtful way. 

      Dan: My pleasure, bybbyg.
      I enjoy looking into this dream-nature
        with you ...

      Your analysis is

      Glad you like it.

      Advaita Vedanta has many texts to draw from pointing to what
      you describe.  Ramana Maharshi was asked if there was any difference
      in "waking reality" or dreams and he answered thet the only
      difference was that dreams did not last as long. 

      There is no real way to ascertain how long anything lasts.
      How long something lasts depends on the way measurement
        occurs in the dream in which duration is being measured.

      Waking reality is a dream, in which the concept occurs
        that dreams happened the night before
        and can be discussed the day after.
        All of these interwoven ideas: waking reality,
        dream, the night before, the day after,
        are simultaneously occurring in
        this dream:  "the now moment" in which seemingly a concept
        about a character experiencing a reality has occurred ...

      When a political
      activist asked him if he felt any responsibility to help others, he
      replied "What others?" 

      To whom did he address this statement?

      He went on to ask the person if when he awoke
      from a dream did he feel a responsibility to go back in to the dream
      to awake the others.

      Yes, an excellent point.

      Dissolution of the ego is another term for liberation.
      Conceptual advaita is an oxymoron. 

      The distinction between concept and reality is

      We all know that before we post.
      I try to regurgitate what I absorb from sages lives and words for
      reasons unknown to me.

      What sages (others)?
      Knowledge is not accumulation of facts .  It is the state we all know
      when ignorance is dispelled. 

      Ignorance is our own (generally "unconscious") activity,
        done to "get somewhere" and "have something" for "me" ...

      Beyond such attempt --
      what ignorance could there be to dispel
      (what something 'other' than truth)?

      While ignorance is present

      Only present is present.
      Nothing else.
      There may be the attempt to
        act as if there could be
        something else, but that's
        all, just a futile attempt ...

      Except for this futile attempt to
        act 'as if' ...
      What ignorance is there, belonging to whom,
         presenting itself from what place
         outside of this present,
         by what means?

      we believe
      we act but when knowledge is present that is all there is.

      And ...

      Present is present.
      All is all.

      From whence can arise a separate
        "we" who can believe or disbelieve
        a concept such as "we act" ...
        ascertained as "truth" or "fiction"?

      Only the
      Self.  Only Knowledge.

      Yes.  And this Self can only
        be no Self whatsoever (for
        what *real* mirror could there ever be,
        by which it could know itself
        as Self?), and in the same way,
        no Knowledge can there be,
        for what  knowledge could ever take place
        (knowledge requiring something to
         be known) ... and thus being so unknown
         that no concept of known or unknown
         could ever pertain ...

      The point is to not swerve away from

      Who else is here, who could
        swerve or not swerve?

      The word is dhyana.  Easy to say.  Your love and desire
       for liberation will accomplish this as mine will for me.

      If truth were something that could be accomplished,
        then truth would be a lie.
      To call truth 'liberation' is a lie, because it implies
        that something other than truth could occur, from which
        truth would need to be liberated.
      To call truth "truth" is a lie, because it implies some
        other reality apart from truth, which could be false.

      Anything ever said about truth, liberation, love, etc.,
        is a lie, including this statement.

      Thus, every statement is equally true or false, and neither
         true nor false.

      Yet, in the day to day world of banks, research science,
         hotels, and psychiatric clinics, consensus
         must be reached about relative ways
         to ascertain truth and falsehood.

      Although this consensus reality of day to day determinations
         of truth about things like money, gravity, bills, and medications
         is to be understood for what it is, the meanings defined from
         within this reality can never yield the truth prior to and beyond
         this reality.

       I don't think my query on the psychological community's stance on
       Advaita was answered by your analysis, as good as it was.

      True.  To answer in terms of consensus reality, I'd say that mainstream
        psychology focuses on thinking coherently, integrating
        thought, feeling and action, and interacting in a balanced way socially.
        Generally, ideas like personality and identity are considered
         in terms of changing imbalanced and unintegrated
         approaches or structures to more balanced and more integrated.
         This endeavor called 'psychology' (similar to the endeavor
         called 'spirituality'), being itself projection, perhaps makes it difficult for
         the average psychologist (or spiritual person)
         to embrace reality (which renders their own
         identity and work necessarily as projection, concept-only).

         It is a rare
         psychologist (although I've met many)
         who is open to reality (nonduality) as such, in my experience.
         In my opinion, this is in no small part due to the fact
         that reality is the end of psychological (or spiritual) reality, process and
         inquiry.  There is no longer a entity capable of self-consciousness,
         who could be invited to self-reflect (or meditate, or move to truth),
         who could be addressed as the conceptualizer, experiencer, or realizer.

      So, that's my answer within the day to day consensus reality, in
         which projections by communities of individuals (such as
         a group of scientists or psychologists) makes a difference.

      Yet making truth into a meaning that could
         be supported, endorsed, or verified by such a community
         or any community (including a so-called spiritual community)
         has made that truth into something that it is not -- essentially
         a commodity for endorsement, validation, personification,
         barter, salesmanship, contesting, and so on. 

      Although people associate, validate, agree, etc., with concepts and
         persons that they link with "nondual understanding",
         such associating, owning or validating has nothing whatsoever to do
         with truth.

      Another way to say this is like this:  the dream arises as a whole.
         Any apparent splits questioned or endorsed by dream characters
         (who arise as if they could have split from dream reality to endorse
          or question aspects of dream reality) are simply the playing out
         and through of aspects of the dream-whole.  There is no dreamer
         to be found nor negated.  Thus, whether a dream community endorses
         or doesn't endorse a so-called nondual explanation of reality makes
         no difference whatsoever to the dream-whole, which already always
         is a dream-whole, regardless of statements or actions
         made one way or the other by dream characters.

       The unimportance of the question was emphasized very well from an
       objective viewpoint. 

      Glad it came across that way.
      It's actually a question, which, if taken seriously, imbeds
        a dream character in the belief that he or she has a reality
        of his or her own, to interact with others, who also have
        realities of their own. 

      The problem with that as I see it, I only get
      to have subjective viewpoints.

      Yes, "I" is an apparent subjective viewpoint.
      The sum of all "I's", experiences, and viewpoints
        is what is usually construed as intersubjective reality.
      That there is no reality whatsoever to "I's", experiences,
        and viewpoints usually remains as an undiscovered truth.
      If this truth be discovered, the subjective viewpoint is utterly
        undermined, and there is no objective viewpoint available

      The ego exists by utilizing projection
      and veiling, rajas and tamas.  Any attempt at objectivity is

      The ego doesn't utilize projection, it is projection.
      Any attempt at a subjective reality is projection/introjection
            as well.

      Reality "alone", meaning "with no other", is reality.
      There is no place to project (or introject) anything.
      As *this* is one's own nature, no projection has
         ever taken place.
      There is no one who ever could be liberated or

      Another way to say this: there can only be
        projected reality when knowing oneself
        as real is deferred.  When no longer negating
        the reality one is, there is no projection possible.

      Why do we attempt to negate what can't be negated?
      Because we're convinced that subjectively experienced
         reality is true, and thus take such negation as an
         unquestioned and assumed a priori fact.

      The assumption that reality has been negated
        is ignorance -- which is literally ignore-ance
        of the truth of being ...

      Ignore-ance, or shutting out of truth, is "unconscious"
        is assumed by the organism along with the sense
        that an organism exists ...

      The negation of reality is the sense that
         an affirmation has taken place ("I am", or "things exist"),
         various phenomena can be experienced as objects,
         and a self as subject can seemingly be here.

      I sense your good will and I am glad for the interchange.

      Same here ;-)
      Yours with much good will,

      And from here to there, as well ...



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