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Sunday, July 22

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    VALERIE hello this is valerie and this is a test... ... BRUCE: Val s an old friend from the Krishnamurti list and lives in sunny (at least 2-3 days per year)
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 24, 2001

      hello this is valerie and this is a test...

        Val's an old friend from the
        Krishnamurti list and lives
        in sunny (at least 2-3 days
        per year) Alaska, USA.
        Welcome, Val!

      Thankye Bruce!
      Okay - here goes:
      lessee -
      my name is valerie and i am a spiritual aspirant, a writer of
      tales, a photographer, a flaky artist by nature, and
      musically gifted. And a good actor. And humble; in fact low
      self-esteem. So please nobody be mean to me - send me
      compliments and flowers and I will write poetry about the
      wonders that are *you* (whoever you are...) oh - i don't
      care, be mean if you wanna - what's it to me? Water off a
      duck's back; hee haw!

      LIKES: I like chocolate, the smell of
      turpentine, flowers and children before they can walk and
      talk, gray drizzly wet long days in the rainforest, and boat
      rides off to deserted old growth islands. Beachcombing is
      cool. I wanna live on a boat someday, if I don't buy the VW
      camper mobile and be a gypsy when I grow up and have my long
      awaited happy childhood. Like I was tellin Bruce I wanna dye
      my white hair purple and wear bells on my neck, wrists and
      ankles and smell of patchouli oil. Long tie-dye gowns and
      Indian print things, big hoops in my ears and live on alfalfa
      sprouts and prana. People will pay me to read their fortunes
      in the tea leaves and interpret their dreams. Oh and I love
      people with big disgusting vocabularies... :-)

      Loud noises, crowds, going outside, bad psychotropic drugs,
      big barrelling lumber trucks, people who tailgate, big
      cities, being trapped on an island for 5 years straight (true
      story), dishonesty in all forms, abhor violence, black
      licorice, the smell of aftershave and chemical perfumes, big
      unfamiliar Rottweilers, art that looks like one or two lines
      from a child in kindergarten in big chrome frames selling for
      thousands of dollars in galleries, rap music, whiney country
      western songs, cheap wine, shitkickers attitudes, green eggs
      and ham, and pawn brokers who sell my fiddle (grrrr...).

      you can see where I work at:
      and click on the Weekly Images link

      that's enough outta me -
      thankyou for your time, I will now resume my "preferred lurkers" status
      and return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
      *buzz click!*
      over and out!
      best regards,



      GENE: Humans information-process their way around, in this
      ocean of information, like a fish swims in the sea. And like
      the fish, who is probably unaware of water, we humans are
      generally unaware of the environment of information in which
      we move, as we navigate from meaning to meaning.

      Grammars are the primary means of conditioning; indeed,
      grammar is itself a language which precedes the symbols which
      it serves to regulate. The genetic memory of survival, forms
      the grammars which naturally rank and file all symbols used
      in communication; the primary grammar is (for us) thus, one
      which continually purifies itself in order to favor survival
      of the human species.

      GARY: Korzybski called this the 'semantic environment', the
      world of meaning in which 'we' swim.

      As dogmatic fish 'we' know what's going on and have reached
      conclusions by which to live by. These conclusions fit in the
      world view which is taken as real. So the reality for and
      Arab is different than a Jew. The grammar of language and
      knowledge supports this identity. Little words like 'is'
      bring stasis to the picture. 'to be' and 'I am' being
      derivations thereof. This happens largely unconsciously as
      'new' information is processed according to the existing

      GENE: Space, as the ultimate emptiness, is actually the
      ultimate fullness; and objects are products of space, literal
      standing-wave forms which decay as the energy of their
      information is absorbed back into the vast plenum of space.

      GARY: The question would be whether this process is
      inevitable. Fullness and emptiness are still theoretical.
      What we really want to know is the fullness or emptiness of
      ourselves :-) Is there still room for emptiness in the
      fullness of the known? 'I am' just the limitation of the
      known or is there a partaking of the unknown? Identification
      is the limitation of the known. 'Seeing' this limitation is
      the opening of it. That there is no seer separate from this
      seeing may then start to emerge, which is to understand the
      extent of the conditioned view.



      Maurice Taylor's new website is at

      Here's a couple clips I took from it -

      "It's not free. It's going to cost you something. The cost of
      Knowing who You are is the sacrifice of who you think you
      are; it's the sacrifice of your self. Now, if you are
      psychotic, or what they call a borderline, or where your ego
      defenses are a bit shaky, or you cling to your self with a
      death-defying compulsive grasp, such a journey Home may be
      contra-indicated for the time being (or where much more
      assistance is indicated).

      Also, be warned, this is not "new age spirituality" which is
      often a defensive avoidance by the suffering self."



      Author Carlos Fuentes is being interviewed on CBC television.
      The interviewer asked him about his typical day. Fuentes said
      that when he goes to sleep he can't wait for the night to be
      over so that he can begin to write again. He gets up at 6AM
      and writes from 7 until noon. Then he walks for an hour. His
      habit is to walk through the British Cemetery. He spoke about
      how wonderful the gravestone inscriptions were, and he
      described his favorite as follows: "Here lies Lady
      (so-and-so). She went from illusion to reality."

      The interview ends with that statement. Such is life.


      If that would be accepted, gravestone inscriptions could be more

      1. don't lead  the earthworms into temptation
      2. skinman bones always drives faster than you
      3. if only you had been so quiet more often
      4. here lies the truth: dead meat can't cheat!


      SHANKAR (from the I Am list)

      Explanatory Note on the twofold impact of all works:

      We do all our works with our conscious surface minds. As we
      do the work, it ends in the middle of our doing, into a seed.
      This seed gets formed in our conscious mind. And, it goes
      down and gets lodged into the basement of our subconscious

      We are the Supreme Self, having assumed an individual body.
      But, the Supreme Self with the entire universe as Its body,
      is the Personal God, or ISvarA.

      This ISvarA determines in which birth this seed has to
      materialise into our outer circumstances. This
      materialisation occurs only in a subsequent birth by the Will
      of ISvarA. In very special cases, laid down in the vEdAs, the
      same materialises in the current birth itself. This He does
      in such a way that will enable us to turn inward, enquire
      into the Self, resolve the seeds into the Light of the Self,
      and attain Self-Realisation.

      1 This seed becomes active 'only when it materialises' into
      our outer circumstances, in some subsequent birth, 'in the
      form of the fruit of the action' from which this seed was
      formed. 2 Until then, the seed keeps 'acting indirectly' on
      the conscious surface mind, by constantly propelling the same
      from below, into same or similar type of actions. Thus, in
      the current birth it is in 'sleep' because it is yet to
      manifest its fruit in some future birth. Also because, it
      'acts unawares' by propelling the conscious surface mind from
      below it. Thus, our conscious surface mind can be said to be
      constantly in a state of 'sleep-walking' (somnambulism).

      We can resolve the the seed into the Light of the Self in any
      particular birth by performing Self-Enquiry. Suppose we do
      not so resolve the seed. Then it will be carried forward to
      the next birth. It will then exist in that subsequent birth,
      as part of our subconscious mind.

      Suppose we do not so resolve the seed in that subsequent
      birth also. Suppose further that the seed is not ordained by
      ISvarA to materialise into the outer circumstances in that
      birth. Then it will be carried forward to the next birth. It
      will then exist in that subsequent birth, as part of our
      subconscious mind.

      And so on, until it is either resolved by us, or it
      materialises by the Will of ISvarA into the fruit of our



      E: But in confronting one's own conditioning, which is not
      separate from one's self, there needs to be an understanding
      that conditioning in the self does exist, and how to
      recognize it. Are you saying this is not possible? How can
      *anyone* comment intelligently, or at all, on conditioning
      without this understanding!

      D: Back to the "commentator" again? The commentator is the
      conditioning! Freedom from conditioning doesn't come by
      having the correct commentary about conditioning, but from
      being able to observe the conditioning without being defined
      by the conditioning. Not saying something correct about it
      (which statement would involve thought and words, which are
      conditioning), but observing how the activity of conditioning
      works, without being "caught" in it, and by it, in terms of
      claiming an identity within the process of conditioning and

      Is it not possible to notice times when the signs of
      conditioning disappear and a great sense of freedom arises,
      and to notice certain conditions that correspond with such

      Conditioning doesn't disappear as long as the body-mind is
      communicating, working, interacting. And why should it
      disappear? Is conditioning bad, wrong, out of place? No -- in
      fact, such thoughts about conditioning -- that it can, must
      disappear -- are themselves conditioned thinking. Conditions
      that affect a being are conditioning -- so if you think your
      noticing certain conditions that correspond with certain
      occasions of feeling free - that very thought is itself
      conditioned. Freedom from conditioning is *being* the
      unconditioned -- not an experience of freedom that occurs in
      certain conditions!

      E: Yes, the understanding can grow and remedial intervention
      is possible.

      D: Intervention is itself a conditioned response.

      E: There seems to be much concern with the issue of a limited
      entity *trying*, as if to try is to presage automatic

      D: No - it's understanding the entity and the trying are the
      activity of conditioning.

      E: But any practicing artist will explain that real
      spontaneity occurs after many sessions of trying. The truth
      of this may occur more than once in life.

      D: That's a conditional and limited spontaneity. The
      spontaneity of "all that is" is not spontaneity that depends
      on conditions, nor is it spontaneity aimed at an outcome.
      Another way to say this: its being, the outcome, the "income"
      -- are the exact same thing.

      E: To make any comment at all as to whether conditioning can
      be studied and understood -or not, and under what
      circumstances, cannot come from an entity that claims that
      "trying to understand conditioning presumes an entity that
      arises separately from conditioning, which can study it, and
      learn things about it (while continuing to really exist over
      time, irrespective of conditions or conditioning) ..."

      Such an entity would be better off having said nothing. :-)

      D: No such entity has said anything ;-) There is only "the
      unconditioned" ... *No* entities have ever said anything. The
      appearance of an entity with an agenda to say something about
      something is only conditioning. Conditioning doesn't make
      anything real -- it tends, however, to become its own reality
      to itself. For this reason, there is talk about
      "conditioning" ... to facilitate a shift in view, so to speak



      Michael said:

      > Soon, I think, you will have the experience of awakening that will
      > the feeling of separateness. You are quite more open than you may
      > think you are. Yup! Oh you are gonna have a good laugh!

      Not waiting on this one! Have bought Crow to keep in freezer, just in
      case, will happily pop in oven, season and enjoy with baked potato
      when time comes! Good laugh always welcome.

      > Live, laugh, love and be happy - Michael

      Yeah. Thanks. Don't want to be happy all the time, though. Seeing a
      white horse with a feather on it's head harnessed to a carriage and
      waiting for a bride and groom, seeing a dog glance up at his "master"
      with fear, seeing myself pass people on the street who have no
      source of income other than what is put in the cup in front of them
      while I buy expensive prepared food I could do without, today, doesn't
      make me feel "happy", and that's OK with me.

      Thank you for sharing a lovely exchange.


      p.s. Su will be gone for two weeks starting Wed. eve. Going to

      I was raised there. Glendive, Missoula and Butte. Left at age eighteen
      in 1967 and have only been back to visit and on vacation.

      Hmm...better take some freeze dried Crow along. Montana is such a
      beautiful place that your heart may just be tugged open.

      Nah, no one is happy all the time. :-(
      But, one can be at peace in the damndest of circumstances. :-)

      Thanks for your ligh-hearted exchanges.

      Loveya - Michael

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