- **************** Comparison means division. To compare comparing with not comparing is still comparing, still division. So comparing only exists relative toMessage 1 of 1 , Jun 30, 2001View Source****************Comparison means division.
To compare comparing with not comparing is still comparing, still division.
So comparing only exists relative to not comparing and visa versa.
The good exists in relation to the bad
The energy of opposition keeps 'me' going
The Enlightened and Unenlightened deserve each other!
Hi Gary --
Division of what?
There is comparing.
When no comparison
is going on, there is not-comparing.
If you compare comparison
and non-comparison, then you
have comparing, and you don't
know first-hand non-comparison,
just the word.
The activity going on is still "comparing" ...
Bottom-line: "non-comparison" in this
context is, more precisely:
"neither comparing nor not-comparing" ...
No-comparison is "what is".
The name "non-comparing" occurs
in relation to "comparing", but
the actuality in which no comparison
can occur, doesn't depend on
there being something called
It has no name, but is discussed
simply to provoke questioning
of the assumptions involved
in the activity known as "comparing" ...
which includes contrasting comparing
DanJudi: ***** Wrong! It's "Know Thyself" NOT "Know Thy Other Guy"!
Right! Wrong! It's "No Thyself and no Other Guy"!
Wrong! Right! It's "Know Thyself *IS* No Thyself --
What Other Guy?"
Who's the weakest link?Hello Joyce,
I read your summary, and see the answers therein!
The sutra is saying in a very elegant way that the question of
enlightenment is for beings who believe in existence and non-existence.
Beings are taken as those who believe in existence and non-existence, and
who see things as arising from a place, and residing in a place. What the
Tathagata show as enlightenment is "pure (in essence) and permanently free
from ignorance." The Tathagata thus raises the beings' standards on what
enlightenment is. It's not located in time and space, but its purity is
everywhere. If this purity, as empty space, is seen by beings to issue
from a person or place, or to be located at all, then, enter the illusory
flower. Hence the aptness of the phrase, "That which is aware of this
empty space is like the appearance of the illusory flower". For who could
seem to see the empty space other than a being, which is actually a
no-space, no-place like the sky-flower?
To the Sutra excerpt and questions:
>"The awareness of their (birth,death, body, mind) nonexistence is like
>empty space. That which isaware of the empty space is like the appearance
>of the illusoryflower. However, one cannot say that the nature of this
>awarenessis nonexistent. Eleminating both existence and nonexistence is in
>accordance with pure enlightenment."The awareness is at the same level of existence/nonexistence as the beings.
Neither absolutely existence, nor absolutely lacking existence. Existence
being there, the elimination of existence is right there here too.
>Can any one comment about what theirunderstanding is on, "That which is
>aware of this empty space is like theappearance of the illusory flower".
Awareness *of* something, especially the empty space which is wherevery you
look, happens in the illusory pinpoint space, like the flower. The
illusory pinpoint of space is the being who seems to see.
>And; "Eliminating bothexistence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure
>enlightenment."Pure enlightenment is no trivial thing, but about existence itself. It is
not a new or better kind of existence, but about how neither existence nor
non-existence are there to be found. The "seeing" of this is not really
seeing, and this is why it is in accordance with pure enlightenment.
>Also: "This non existence of birth and deathand body and mind is not so
>much a consequence of contrived effort.It is so by it's intrinsic nature."
Birth and death and body and mind don't inherently exist, nor do they
totally lack existence. No inherent characteristics apply to them at all,
nor are they inherent. But this "fact" doesn't depend upon being seen -
it's already so.
>So - how do sentient beings discover orrecognize this 'intrinsic nature'?
>Since it is not so much a "consequenceof contrived effort".
They practice the Dharma till the question dissolves! For if they were to
arrive at a place from which they recognize the intrisic nature, the empty
space, then there would still be the being, the place, and the point seen
from. They would have "droped" back into existence again. That is one of
the petals on the illusory flower spoken of above....
is>Can any one comment about what their understanding is on, "That which
>aware of this empty space is like the appearance of the illusoryflower".Dan:
This is to go beyond "awareness", beyond any qualities associated
with being aware, including the idea/feeling/perception that
there is something in which images
appear and are recognized, which has the quality of knowing
things and recognizing them ...
All attributes of *this*, including awareness, are like the
appearance of the illusory flower.
However, *this* is not nonexistent. Attributes,
qualities, experiences, and images associated with it
and to it are unreal (for there is nothing that
can "cling" to *it*),
however this "non-clinging" (which isn't a quality that
*it* "has") doesn't make *it* nonexistent.
Existence and nonexistence are primary attributes
or categories that allow perception to produce forms,
to function as perception.
Similarly primary categories are time and space.
As no associations, assumptions, or categories "cling" ...
*It* can't be said to exist or not exist, to be inside or outside
of time or space, to be perceived or perceiving ...
Knowing this is to know "all this" as my own awareness,
yet having no qualities, not even of awareness --
and to know that none of "all this" occurs in time or space,
or beyond time and space ...
This is occurring without taking place; all this transience involves
nothing changing, everything moves without
anything travelling, all these perceptions are not being perceived ...>And; "Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure
>Also: "This nonexistence of birth and death and body and mind is not so
>much aconsequence of contrived effort. It is so by it's intrinsic nature."
It's not even intrinsic nature.
That's just said for convenience, as a pointer.
There are no attributes or qualities,
not even an intrinsic nature.
So, there's really no pointing, just the
illusion of pointing.
>So -how do sentient beings discover or recognize this 'intrinsic nature'?
>Since it is not so much a "consequence of contrivedeffort".
The same place from which the illusion arises, is
the place from which the insight arises.
The illusion doesn't really hide the insight.
The illusion only seems to hide the insight,
in an illusory sort of way.
Seeing this, it doesn't matter whether illusion arises,
or insight arises.
They are not really two, and they are not really
An illusory being can't know itself to be an illusion.
*It* can't know itself to be other than *it* ...
Thus, there is no problem,
and nothing to know,
and nothing about which
something could be known.
Joyce, you asked:
(It makes more sense to read this entry from the end to the
beginning; the end informs the beginning. This is a function of the
order of the questions.)
>Can any one commentabout what their understanding is on, "That which is
>aware of this emptyspace is like the appearance of the illusory flower".
The nature of the 'illusory flower' is itself, emptiness; thus it is
known to awareness, which is emptiness.
>And; "Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is inaccordance with pure
>enlightenment."The 'entire' (emptiness) is the observer, which sees both existence
and nonexistence. Existence and nonexistence are one binary pair of
many, so observed, yet do not form the antipodes of Being. Indeed,
emptiness has no antipodes. Conclusion... ?
>Also: "This non existence of birth and death and body and mind isnot so
>much a consequence of contrived effort. It is so by it'sintrinsic nature."
It is not accomplished, it is what happens. And it happens because it is real.
To recognize the 'intrinsic nature' is to realize 'only what is
real'. Only this 'has' intrinsic nature. Awareness has only itself as
comparison to any other thing, and other than awareness, no thing has
>So - how do sentient beingsdiscover or recognize this 'intrinsic nature'?
>Since it is not so much a"consequence of contrived effort".
The sentient Being is itself, 'intrinsic nature'. Self-recognition is
full function of awareness; in other words, awareness recognizes
itself, and realizes the nature of awareness.
Unlimited (infinite) awareness is unbounded space (without
antipodes). Space/emptiness/awareness are synonymous.
Without boundaries, the Universe is an open system, and thus open to
any and all reactions. Another way of saying this is that the
Universe (space itself) is the realm of unlimited possibility.
Consider the nature of awareness, as the emptiness of space in which
all events occur. Infinite possibility, as reality, manifests as
imagination. The flux of imagination, is 'the dance of Maya', the
attention-grabbing and identification-encouraging movement in space.
This movement is itself, powerful stimulation, and the human reacts
All reactions modify this movement; thus the illusion of 'doing' and
its derivative, accomplishment.
One may simply quit the dance, and the dancer (movement) goes on.
Participation is optional.
Overall, awareness is the arena in which all occurs; awareness is primary.
Excellent questions, Joyce.
==Gene Poole==EDDinu Roman:
The first sign noticed by two Tantric partners after some time of successful Tantric practice, is an incredible development of the sensorial acuity, an exceptional unfoldment of the senses' perceptive power. The reality is intensified and simultaneously perceived as intricately complex: its appearance is now of a higher order than that perceived before. The outer objects lose their solidity and appear as fluid and continuously moving in a harmonious rhythm. Every tiny detail of the surrounding world reveals itself as a complex Universe in miniature. The significance of every detail of the world changes compared to what was grasped before. Profound qualitative changes of the coordinates of the manifested world set up gradually: the time is accelerated, the space expands, the causality becomes fluent. A new aesthetic awareness awakens — everything is beautiful! The beauty of the ubiquitous spiritual substratum of everything that exists is now perceived even in the so called "ugly" things or phenomena.
Friday June 29 10:07 AM ET
Scientist Says Mind Continues After Brain Dies
By Sarah Tippit
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A British scientist studying heart attack patients
says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue
after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is clinically dead.